Thread: Turkish liberated SMLE # 3, 8X57 convertions
Retrieved: 06/20/2014

After the allied defeat at Gallipoli in WW1, the Turks ended up with a large number of liberated SMLE # 3. I have seen pictures of some of these that have been converted to fire the 8x57 Mauser cartridge and a floorplate instead of the magazine, and I am wondering how the turks made the 8x57 Mauser cartridge work satisfactory in the SMLE # 3.

breakeyp
02-13-2008

Based on samples I have, the guns with homemade volley sights are Pakistani reworks of the 8mm Turkish Enfield/Mauser. Unfortunately the 8mms have import markings indicating they are .303 caliber. Really unfortunately, they chamber and potentially could fire both .303 and 8mm cartridges. It could be very bad if you fired an 8mm pill in a .303 barrel. I could measure mine but that would not resolve potential problems with other people's guns. Once again it must be stressed that they are not safe for firing.

jrhead75
02-13-2008

That scenario certainly makes sense... reworked reworks. A good case in point as to the problems with the guns from this region. It's nearly impossible to apply any standards to them.

miketv
02-18-2008 Ditto the safety aspect, the example I have was a 1914 LSA. The import marking is "1893 GERMAN 8MM CIA VT" and was aquired a few years ago in Central Ohio.

M.Chalmers
02-18-2008

Well, yours is a real one. One of the 126 ish marked as a 1893. Not like the fakes being sold now with the TN import. Does yours still have the brass ID disk? What are the unit markings? Then if it has the unit markings... look to see if the unit was involved at "Gallipoli".

Now, a few years ago when the "Gallipoli" 8mm hit the USA market, the fight started. (old Gun and Knife forum?) One side said, the Enfields where surplus sold to the Turks (1928?). The other said, the rifles are battle field captures. A web page even let you post your rifle and the markings... I can't find the old page

Short point is:

1) most of the cr*p now are just "new" Khyber pass rifles. (not worth $50USD)
2) the real Enfouser was thought to be as safe as low serial Springfields (I've shot mine)
3) "new" Khyber pass rifles blow up! (I'm looking for the link)

miketv
02-18-2008

I have the fortune to be well aqainted with a dealer that purchased these directly from Century at that time. He relayed to me that the rifles were stacked in a pile of "junk" in a corner of the Century warehouse. The dealer inquired and purchased a small lot of them (28) for a pittance. I had the opprotunity to look them over and chose 3 that I was interested in: 1915 Enfield, 1896 MLE and 1914 LSA. I have let two go and kept the LSA as it was the best condition (not saying much there!) The LSA does retain the steel marking disc which is dated 3-16 to the 3rd Manchester Battalion which as far as I have researched was a reserve (clerks and supply) unit during WWI and never saw service at Gallipoli.

I remember the threads on G&K about the origins of these rifles and really never worried about debating the semantics as it's likley that we'll never know the exact truth. The one common thing I did notice is that the Ankara date on all of the rifles was 1936. Do you have an idea of how many of these converted rifles were originally imported?

M.Chalmers
02-18-2008

I was "told" 126 +\- came in that conex. Total numbers? Well, 126 in the 90's, 50-75 mid 80's that Val from Navy Arms was selling and some during the 60's. One dealer I've known for 35 + years has one from 1962($10.99USD). Best guess was from data during the G&K days said, 350 tops in the USA.

Now, I bought 15 before somebody figured out that the rifles would sell for more back in the 90's. Wish I kept them all. Skinny took a ton of pics of one at a Maryland show March 2001. He was one that claimed 90% of the rifles were sold (surplus) to Turkey. The Ankara dates I've seen are 1936 and 1937.

breakeyp
02-18-2008

A few comments for what it is worth.

1. My first Enfield/Turkish Mauser came from Springfield Sporters about 1985. It was missing the stock. That tells me that they have been in the US before.

2. A later purchase had a long lee but with unit markings attributable to a loss at Gallalopi.

3. More British rifles were lost to Turkey at Kurt, when the British General surrended a whole army. He did well in captivity--his men did not. Another source for converts.

4. Navy Arms tried to sell a number of Turkish surplus No.1s as Gallalopi captures. I went through the piles in the New Jersey back room and most had post war inspection dates, 1920's, on the left socket. I take this to mean that Turkey was active buying surplus Lees between wars. I would not be suprised that some of these found there way in the Turkish mauser rework mill.

Of course diehards may insist that Turkey used British inspection conventions. Conspiricy Theorists may conclude that Turkey and Britain continued the war in a undeclared manner into the 1920.s. This is why it is so fascinating to collect and research Lee Enfields.

DocAV
02-18-2008

True Turkish "Enfausers"

Turkey captured MLE (ie, Long LE) and SMLE at Gallipoli and at Kut in Mesopotamia (now Iraq).

The majority of 1936 ASFA conversions are those built from MLE and CLLE (Charger Loading Lee Enfield)... most of the British troops at Gallipoli had CLLE, rather than SMLE. The Aussies had SMLE Mark I (ALH) and Mark III.

The troops at Kut had a Mixture of SMLE (British) and CLLE and MLE (IP) the Indian Troops... the majority of Infantry at Kut were of the Indian Army... the Brits there were the officer corps, the Royal Flying Corps, Signals and some artillery units.

As most of the 1936 Enfausers seen are of the MLE variety, the Unit ID are on the Buttplate Tang (on the Disc on SMLE Butts (no BP tang))

The receiver stamps are correct for the type.

The Volley sights are not "KyberPass" but local Turkish repair/assembly.

The Short rifle format uses a M29 Steyr Export Mauser Bayonet Band and Lug (short variety) whilst the Bayonet is a M98 type made by Mauser (no Muzzle ring) obviously a left over from the 1917-18 Oberndorf sourced Military aid by Germany.

Also the front part of the Volley sight has been "spliced" into the new Mauser type fore-end... note the different width of finger groove between the original MLE Wood and the new "mauser" type Wood.

The Use of Steyr Parts is "strange" or not, as Turkey had relationships with Steyr pre-WW I (conversion of M74 Peabodies to 7,65 Mauser was done by or with Steyr made barrels and sights--M74/12 Conversion); and of course, Steyr would have tried to interest Turkey in the early 1930s with M29 Mausers also... so acquisition of some parts, either from existing rifles (rebuilt into Turkish Mauser SRs with normal bayonet bars(ie, M1903 type) or just as spare parts.)... Turkey had very few Short rifles with the Long German bayo. lug and ringless bayonet... they preferred the M93/03 Full ring bayonet and regular M93 type lug and band.

I have only seen a few M98/37 (ex Gew 98) type Short Rifles with the typical H Band and Long lug, and original WW I S84/98 or short S98/05 bayonets, as per normal Gew98s.

The rule usually is, Long Bayonet lug/bar, == Ringless bayonet (German Service); Short bar/lug ==Ringed bayonet, Export contract (South America usually); The Czechs opted for a ringed bayonet and Long lug as well for the Vz24; the Vz98 and Vz98/22 were direct Gew98 derivatives, and retained the Long Lug and H band. There are variations though.

As the Enfausers were a small "Make work" project, given the esiguous numbers of captured Lee Enfields compared to Mausers on hand, (even with eventual "purchases" in the 1920s, and leftovers from the British occupation of Turkey up to 1920 (Allied Commission)... the numbers have always been small. And a survey of the numbers in the USA from my (Parallax) Survey of things Turkish, shows that probably only up to 5,000 were ever converted (No serials noted over 5,000 at present, after some ten years of survey...and they have not shown up elsewhere than the USA. Most surveyed have been "long " rifles, stocked in modified M1903 style for relative bayonet.

This is the first "Short rifle" example seen so far, and may have even been a "Long Rifle " shortened by the Turks themselves... that's probably when the Austrian M29 Bayo fitting was added.(?)

Lance
02-18-2008

To back up Paul's observation on post war rifle's being converted, my Turked P1907 bayonet is a Vickers with '22 and '32 rebuild/inspected dates, pommel is marked "OTC" over "MON".

Fushigi Ojisan
02-18-2008

I just came into a Turked Pattern 1907 Bayonet myself, Sanderson 8 17 with 1922 and 1932 rebuild marks as well. It had "OT" under the grips (which look like the same wood as Turk bayonets and not Walnut)

The scabbard on mine is a shortened Mauser pattern.

M.Chalmers
02-18-2008

DOCAV, the rifle you are looking at is one of the new "ones". Came in two years or so ago. Made for the USA. Wood showed all the fresh carvings. 90% have the fake Arabic on the stock. Some of the rifles have real parts. Others will have homemade receivers. A dealer in TN was selling then under $200. Haji made these "Kyberpass" rifles from all types of parts. Some had German 1944 98K barrels (SWP44 well thats how they marked them by hand).

One rumor was the importer had the rifles made.

All I know is I could have bought rifles like this:

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=91630623 in Afghanistan for $25 USD (2003). Would of, should of (at half that selling price)

Askari Fabrika was a real factory that would never make that thing.

Why standardize the arms in the 30's, as they did, and make that.

Wish old Lud Olson was still around. I'd liked to get his take on these. Knew the old guy when he lived in Delaware. Oh, to be young again.