Thread: IOF 315 rifle and cartridge
Retrieved: 06/15/2014
[lengthy off-topic discussion deleted]
Just back from a long holiday in the hills. Checked out the IOF 315 rifle and ammo and here is what I found:
1. The 315 cartridge is not an invention of the IOF. I would not like to name the cartridge that they have copied. Somebody just might try to shoot the IOF ammo in the rifle for that cartridge. The cartridge is dimmensionally the same as the IOF 315 cartridge. What I have been able to find about the cartridge that forms the basis of the IOF 315 cartridge is:
i) It fires a 244 grn bullet at about 1980 fps
ii) The long shaft is used to stabilise the bullet in the barrel
iii) Bullet has almost a parabolic trajectory
2) The 315 bullet itself is poorly constructed.The copper jacket is too thin, not properly fused with the lead core and has a tendency to seperate.That probably accounts for the copper jacket tearing off and lodging in the barrel.
3) The older cartridges were also poorly constructed. The bullets are not seated properly and mostly tilt in one direction. The neck of the cart is also not evenly sloping. Fresh ammo is however better constructed. The case necks are annealed.
4) Ammo was earlier loaded with cordite. Fresh ammo uses some sort of powder.
5) The primers are highly corrosive. The best way to clean the rifle is to pass hot water through the barrel after even a single round having been fired.So for this reason would not recommend buying a rifle second hand.
6) The barrels are well constructed.
7) The action is smooth (if you choose your rifle correctly)
The factory sights are totally useless.
9) The stock is rudimentary to say the least.
As I have said, the fresh ammo is better than what was being manufactured earlier. A friend tried it out and gave a good report about its performance.
shahid
Jan 24, 2007
The origins of this calibre certainly date back to the Lee Enfield .303. Based on the same action a .303 Bitish sporting calibre was introduced in 1920s, which still exists.
The .315 round with this 244 grain bullet was first designed by BSA of Birmingham for general sporting purpose use. The calibre originally was developed by Mauser of Germany, and the .315 perhaps had a military history of service or research earlier. But the general idea was to create a calibre different from Police or Military use.
The IOF chose this over 7.62 mm calibres like the 30-06 or .308, because the technology and machines came from BSA, also for the 12 Bore gun that was made at Icchapore factory, it was also a BSA derivative. The rest is history and we have the legacy of this .315 cartridge which fires all right most of the times, but the mishaps associated with it like empty case breaking inside the chamber, empty shell jammed, expansion, bullet breaking at the neck joint, copper jacked related issues, the list is endless. The .315 rifle related issues also form a long list, from parts falling apart, to flawed extrators, loose safety catch, sights not aligning, the list is endless really.
Sujay
Mar 08, 2007
"even a local blaksmith could build a better one"
That was my reaction also when I saw the IOF 315 rifle for the first time.
I did not even bother to shoot it, the damm thing was so crudely made that I did not even want to hold it in my hands!
--- In indians4guns@yahoogroups.com, Jonah Pachuau wrote:
I recently had a chance to checkout a OFB .315 rifle and I think its a bloody shame. OFB should not be selling such weapons to the public. Even local craftsmen or blacksmiths can build a better one. I couldnt make out but i suspect the bolt action to be made of alluminium! Finishing is a very poor paint job of the kind that would make my son cringe. It is full of accumulated paint at all joints and crevices of the rifle. The wood seems to be somekind of banyan! Foresight cover seems to be made of tin sheet! and is not perfectly round. Bolt action is sticky and very suspicious. Its high time that the civilian sector is allowed to compete in the defence sector. India would have nothing to loose. I dont know why some of our bigger companies like TATA, MAHINDRA & MAHINDRA, RELIANCE etc. are not allowed to contribute to the defence industry. Only when such names come out with their small arms brands will we be able to have quality weapons.
--- sukhpreetsinghsidhu2000
Tried to find Abhijeet's views on the IOF .315 rifle on Google but got nothing. It's the cheapest centre fire rifle for which ammo is readily available and therefore I decided to have a look at it. I have fired the Ishapore 2A in 7.62 and thought it to reasonably accurate. I have never fired the .315. I have used the IOF .22. The first one that I bought, I had to get it exchanged. Closing the bolt was very hard after chambering a round and then it would not eject until the round in the chamber had been fired. In fact the extractor would simply slip over the rim. The bolt would pull back with the round still in the chamber.The second one is better, but with its own problems. I had to get the mag spring changed as the cartridges would hang up in the mag and the mag had to be hit for them to move up. Now the main problem is that the bolt shaves off a bit of the lead of the bullet of the cartridge below the one to be chambered, affecting accuracy, no doubt. I had the IOF .32 revolver before I sold it to buy a .32S&W. It had a horrible trigger pull. I have got large hands (I am 6.1) and the lever for the break open barrel would dig into my thumb every time I fired it. As far as the IOF pistol is concerned my experience has been limited to firing a couple of rounds from somebody else's pistol. I felt that the point of impact kept on shifting quite bit. It would fire the first round below the second one while using the double tap. The sights are in fact almost non-existent though it is a better product than the revolver. I saw a Pak Made revolver in .32S&W alotted to an Airforce Officer that was better than the IOF revolver. It was seven shot with a larger frame than the IOF revolver though it too was copy of the Webley revolver with as atrocious a pull as the Indian made revolver.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indians4guns/message/846
shahid
Apr 10, 2007
Maybe not an alloy bolt but just electroplated with chrome or nickel. They do all kinds of funny things at IOF.
shahid
Oct 08, 2007
8x57 ammo is not at all suitable to be fired in a .315 and my advice is no one should ever attempt it. It is a very different cartridge. For that matter there are a host of other 8mm rounds as well, 8mm Mauser, 8mm Rem, 8mm Krag Jorgensen, 8mm Siamese, but they are all different.
This unique thing for 8mm Indian .315 is a lower velocity heavier bullet (244 grains) round, centrefire, rimmed. Some reject got cheaply from somewhere and manufactured here, perhaps with minor alterations to IOFs existing .303 cartidge making facilitations wherever they were in India then.
Trajectory of 244 Grain IOF, .315 round.
50 yards +1 inch
100 yard spot on,
150 yards -1/2 inch
200 yards - 2 inch
300 yards - 7 inch
400 yards - 11 inch.
Leaf sights, original IOF but silver metal put on the foresight.
mundaire
Jan 03, 2008
For those of you that are interested in the origin and details of the IOF .315/ 8mm cartridge, I've just received scans of measured dimensions of the IOF cartridge (courtesy Sukhpreet) -
Also, for comparison below are the dimensions of the .303 British cartridge (courtesy Grumpy) -
Maximum Case Length - 2.222 inches
Case Trim Length - 2.212 inches
Primer Type - large rifle
Rim Thickness - .064 Rim Diameter - .540 Case Capacity in Grains (water) - 55.7
Maximum Cartridge Overall Length is dependant on bullet type/weight.
Military Specification - 3.04 inches
the dimensions of the .303 cartridge supplied are as per published specifications, those of the .315 IOF are as per measurements carried out on an actual cartridge (by a member here). This due to the absence of any data published by the manufacturer (IOFB). As is often the case, physical measurement of the case may possibly be subject to human error, so these dimensions should be taken as purely indicative.
IMPORTANT: I am also forced to mention here (for safety reasons), EVEN IF the dimensions of the .315/ 8mm IOF cartridge may resemble closely those of one/ more other 8mm cartridges of other manufacture this SHOULD NOT be taken to mean that they are interchangeable in ANY RESPECT. Cartridges of even the exact same dimensions are OFTEN loaded to very different pressures AND therefore CANNOT BE SAFELY interchanged in guns meant for the other. A case in point is the .223 Remington cartridge when compared to the 5.56x45 NATO round. While both are dimensionally almost identical, the 5.56 NATO round is loaded to higher pressures and may cause serious harm/ damage to the rifle if used in a rifle designed to use the .223 Remington cartridge! Though most of you are smart enough to know these things, I've added this paragraph to prevent some enterprising youngster from causing harm to himself/ others through half baked information/ incorrect/ hasty conclusions.
mundaire
Jan 03, 2008
IIRC there was once talk of the .315/ 8mm IOF being eerily similar to the 8x50R mm Lebel cartridge. But thanks to Sukhpreet's research it seems that though close in dimensions (they are after all both 8mm rounds), both cartridges are different enough from each other to preclude any thought of their being used interchangeably.
Dimensions of the 8x50R Lebel:
Bullet diameter .327 in (8.3 mm)
Neck diameter .349 in (8.9 mm)
Shoulder diameter .457 in (11.6 mm)
Base diameter .543 in (13.8 mm)
Rim diameter .630 in (16.0 mm)
Case length 1.99 in (51 mm)
Overall length 2.75 in (70 mm)
marksman
Jan 04, 2008
As far as I know, 315 IOF is a cartridge then known as 8x50R Mannlicher issued to Greek army in 1890s which was designed for Mannlicher straight bolt pull action rifles, then a Greek issue rifle. It had a 244 grain bullet as well (ball ammo). In fact, Mr.Tarachand of Tarachand Mehta & co, the gun dealers sold me two boxes of this ammo in its original pack. I threw away the ammo as all the primers had gone dud. I am sure those boxes would have been of a great value and would have been highly priced today as a collectors item. The 315 IOF ammo in the seventies was available freely at the controlled rate of Rs 8.90 per a box of 10 ctges. including taxes in Mumbai. You all may think I must be crazy in the head if I told you what all I shot and shot at, with that rifle.
penpusher
Jan 04, 2008
This is from a mutual friend:-
"...the 8x50R Mannlicher was marketed in the UK as the 500-320 King's Norton High Velocity and the .320 Swift. So any 315 designation that came CANNOT be original British."
penpusher
Jan 04, 2008
It does seem like it.
Some people are tracing the IOF .315 cartridge to the 8x50R Austrian Mannlicher cartridge(read Marksmans post).The dimensions of the 8x50R Mannlicher are here: http://www.municion.org/8mann/8mann.htm
Again they do not match those of the IOF .315.
So it is neither the 8x50R Lebel nor the 8x50R Mannlicher.
Grumpy
Jan 04, 2008
I`ve now spent hours on the internet and emailing knowledgable friends/aquaintences and it looks like I`m finally getting somewhere:
Firstly, that IOF `.315`calibre designation is not of British origin. I think that it can be accepted as a purely Indian invention;
The `8mm BSA` was a very short-lived cartridge - apparently produced during 1924 only - and is now accepted by most authorities as being a .303 necked-up to 8mm;
The `.322 Swift` (and `.322 Match`) are different cartridges from the `8mm BSA`, first designed in 1908 and apparently rimmed versions of the Westley Richards .318. As the W-R .318 was first produced c.1910 this implies that both cartridges were designed at the same time;
Whilst one of my correspondents insists that the IOF .315 is a necked-up version of the .303, an examination of the case dimensions proves that this cannot be the case. He appears to be basing his opinion on hearsay `evidence`. I`ve supplied him with the dimensions of the IOF .315 and await his response.
The consensus of opinion is that the IOF .315 IS, in fact, a re-labelled 8x50R Mannlicher. The ballistics figures would certainly seem to support that view.
Drawings/case dimensions of the 8x50R Mannlicher are proving remarkably difficult to obtain but as soon as they are made available to me I will post them here. That should clear up the matter once and for all... should they prove to be the same as the IOF of course...
One thing that mystifies me is why the IOF should have selected such an antique as the Mannlicher 8x50R cartridge as the basis for `their` sporting .315 cartridge. The Mannlicher 8x50R was introduced in the late 1880s and finally made obsolete for military use in 1931 when the Austrians adopted the 8x56R for use in all military rifles/light machine guns although the 8x56R had first been introduced many years before in the Steyr-Solothurn light machine gun.
As I`ve been typing this another email has come in suggesting a reason for the adoption of the 8x50R Mannlicher:
Apparently post 1907 many East African 8x50R rifles were `dumped` in India and the Indian Khirkee (Kirkee) munitions factory subsequently made ammunition in the calibre. Perhaps the IOF `bods` just had a root about in their ordnance facilities to see what was laying around...?
Grumpy
Jan 04, 2008
I saw the dimensions given on a Spanish website :
http://www.municion.org/8mann/8mann.htm
but rejected them as they do not include any length dimensions... however I have since seen two case lengths quoted for the 8x50R Mannlicher of 50.3mm and 50.6mm.
The dimensions for the 8x50R Mannlicher are very similar. You have to remember that the Spanish dimensions are - presumably - taken from the original drawings whilst the dimensions for the IOF .315 detailed above were taken directly from a cartridge. Manufacturing tolerances will easily account for the differences.
By the way, the upper collar/lower neck radius given in the IOF .315 drawings above is obviously incorrect. If that measurement is corrected I think that we will all have to concede that the IOF .315 IS a direct copy of the 8x50R Mannlicher.
penpusher
Jan 04, 2008
8x50R Austrian:-
Bullet 8.2mm/.323"
Neck 8.89mm/.350"
Shoulder 12.09mm/.476"
Base 12.59mm/.496"
Rim 14.19mm/.559"
Length of case 50.19mm/1.976"
Length of case till shoulder 38.27mm/1.507"
shahid
Jan 04, 2008
THIS EXCAHNGE MAY PROVIDE SOME INSIGHT
Courtesy a friend KUDUUAE on another gun forum.
Strictly for knowledgebase share only.
The history of the .315 cartridge is quite clear to me: In colonial India the private sale of the official British military calibers was banned since the early 1900s, see also the development of the .465, .470 and .475 nitro express cartridges to replace the banned .450s. So for instance Manton & Co., then of 13 Old Court House Street, Calcutta, in their 1925 catalog, page 77, offered a ".315 BSA Lee Enfield Magazine sporting rifle". The also 1925 Kynoch ammunition catalog, p.50, lists the "8mm (.315) Mannlicher for Austrian, Bulgarian and Greek sevice rifles". The ballistics given on page 89: 41grs smokeless powder, 244 grs metal covered bullet, muzzle velocity 2034 fps! So your .315" sporting rifle cartridge is nothing else then the old Austro- Hungarian service cartridge of WWI, long forgotten in Europe, called 8x50R Mannlicher M95. I also know a British made boxlock double rifle by T.Bland, London, chambered for this round. After 1930 most of the 95 Mannlicher military rifles were reworked to use the improved 8x56R Hungarian cartridge, which gave improved ballistics: 206grs @ 2300fps
My answer
You seem to have phenomenal knowledge on shooting sports and I am sure this forum will greatly benefit with you here.
You have added very valuable inputs to this subject of .315 origin. In fact the missing link has been found.
So this Austro Hungarian 8 mm x 50 cartridge is the proginator of this IOF 8 mm (.315) cartridge.
By any chance would you have a pic of the cartridge or the page extract from the 1925 Manton & Co. Catalouge.
Given a chance I would simply love to thumb through this volume, plenty of trivia and old shooting sports history would lay in there.
Part 2Hi Shahid,
The reprint of the Manton 1925 catalog is available from www.kynochammunition.co.uk. The cut shows an earlier type of the Lee-Speed action, the name of the civilian versions of the Lee-Enfield, but new cuts were expensive to make and so were used in catalogs over and over again. When BSA was stopped from selling .303 rifles in India, they had to look for another rimmed cartridge with reasonably low pressure, but similar ballistics that fitted in the comparatively weak Lee action. The most popular hunting load for the .303 at that time was the .303 Mk VI loaded with a soft point bullet, essentially the .303 Mk II*C, the world-infamous Dum-Dum load. These loads gave a 215 grs bullet a mv of 2060 fps, so the 244grs at 2034fps of the 8x50R Mannlicher/.315 was definitely not inferior! I quoted the Kynoch ballistics,as Manton´s appear to be rounded off a little bit.
The maximum case dimensions of the old 8x50R were still listed in the 1991 German proof tables. For sure someone over there has got a .315 case and a caliper to compare them, but consider the generous manufacturing tolerances:
Total length of case: 50.2 mm= 1.976"
length to start of shoulder: 38.29mm= 1.51"
" " " " Neck: 44.17mm= 1.74"
rim thickness: 1.4mm= .055"
rim diameter: 14.2mm = .56"
base diam.: 12.6mm= .496"
shoulder diam.: 12.09mm = .476"
neck diam.: 9.04mm = .355"
Bullet diam.: 8.22 mm =.324
mundaire
Jan 04, 2008
Hmm... just checked out the thread... Sukhpreet if you recall Danish had once mentioned a BSA made .315 rifle... it would now seem that this could have been a BSA rifle with a Lee-Enfield action and chambered for the 8x50R Mannlicher...
Grumpy
Jan 04, 2008
Interesting thread - and remarkably similar to the discussion here in many ways... especially as I`ve been in correspondence with several of the participants over the past day or so... and that it only concluded just over a month ago.
I`ve no idea what the `mystery` cartridge is - except that it is definitely not an 8x50R Mannlicher. It would appear to be a .303 with a strange shoulder.
To my knowledge ALL Lee Speeds were built by BSA - various (and several) gun `makers` names appear on them but that is of no consequence. 1925 is too late a date for a true Lee Speed but it could be a commercial No1 Mk III... or a rechambered and rebarrelled/rebored/lined .303 Lee Speed. Lee Speeds were certainly chambered for the 8x50R (unspecified but definitely the Mannlicher.) I suppose that one or other of the proof houses might have stamped some as `.315`... but have no idea why.
One of the troubles with British gunmakers is that they were a law unto themselves when it came to calibre designations... and the British proof houses weren`t much better. Even worse were the colonial retailers who almost arbitrarily invented calibre designations - especially for continental and American calibres. Mantons described the 30-30 Win as the `.305` (or something very similar) in at least one of their catalogues and as the `Winchester .300` in others.
The 8x50R Mannlicher is not renowned as as being especially accurate however, as with the IOF .315 - and every other rifle/cartridge - the variables are manifold. Quality of machining and the accuracy of dimensions of the rifles themselves are a very important aspect of the equation. Commercial .323" Spitzer type bullets of somewhere in the region of 195-210 gr would help as well. Assuming that the IOF rifle has a good bore and rifling, the combination of blueprinting, headspacing, bedding and hand loading the rifle should be capable of MOA accuracy... or pretty close anyway. In still conditions and with a stable bullet there is no reason that the accuracy should deteriorate at longer ranges - within reason of course.
With the right combination - and if you are very lucky - exceptional accuracy can be achieved with a standard rifle straight out of the box. I have a friend whose bog-stand Browning A-Bolt Mk II .300 Win Mag will shoot 1/3 MOA groups at 300 yards with its preferred handloads.
danish21
Jan 05, 2008
Photographs of BSA .315 Sporting Rifle.
The pics are not so clear as i took these pics from my mobile's camera. "Rifle Sporting .315 BSA Made in England" written on its barrel. .315 indian cartridges are used in this rifle.
Grumpy
Jan 05, 2008
It`s difficult to tell but the rifle appears to be a Lee Speed... A better picture of the right side of the action would really help. If it is a Lee Speed it raises a few interesting points:
1. The rifle is marked `Made in England` which implies it was made for export - none of the Lee Speeds that have passed through my hands have been so marked;
2. The Lee Speed was based on the Long Lee (Lee Enfield Mk I) with the distinctive bolt dust cover, a magazine cut-off and lacking the receiver rear bridge of following models. The last Long Lee was built c.1907 although its quite possible that stocks were held by BSA for some time afterwards (but 18 years and with the First World War intervening would be highly unlikely);
3. If a rifle marked `BSA .315` chambers the IOF .315 then the BSA .315 must be the 8x50R Mannlicher;
4. Some Lee Speeds were certainly chambered for the 8x50R (Mannlicher) and marked as such - I know of one currently for sale. I`m wondering if the `BSA .315` designation was only applied to rifles intended for export ?
Grumpy
Jan 05, 2008
Abhijeet, the BSA 8mm was NOT the same as the 8x50R Mannlicher (and apparently the .315) It was a very short-lived necked-up .303. As has just been discussed, one needs to be quite specific when discussing calibres/cartridges.
It would seem that much of the confusion regarding the origins of the IOF .315 has been caused by the careless - and inaccurate - application of calibre de.scriptions in the past... including by Indian based retailers like Mantons who appear to be responsible for describing the 8x50R Mannlicher as the `BSA 8mm` in the first place.
Where the `.315` designation comes from is anyones guess... but it also is wildly innacurate as, if the calibre is the same as the 8x50R, the bullet diameter is actually .323".
penpusher
Jan 05, 2008
If you keep a 8x50R Austrian Mannlicher cartridge next to a IOF .315 cartridge, they look remarkably similar. However when you measure them, they do not match. Also we do not have the chamber pressure at which the IOF .315 cartridge operates. Any variation in this coupled with the slight variation in the bore/cartridge dimensions fired form a weakened action would be a sure shot recipe for disaster. Personally I would prefer to fire the IOF .315 cartridge from a IOF rifle and no amount of persuasion is going to make fire the IOF cartridge in any other rifle.
The Austrian Mannlicher cartridge may be the inspiration for the IOF .315 cartridge however that is where the similarity seems to end. The chaps at IOF seem to have made slight variations to this to the extent that they are no longer the same cartridge. Loose manufacturing tolerances alone might or might not account for these variations. So as long as we do not have the specifications of the IOF for the .315 cartridge we will never be able to tell for sure if it indeed is the 8x50R Austrian.
The link to the other discussion also is inconclusive. Some people feeling that it looks a lot like the 8x50R Austrian, but some saying that it is not. The main advantage that we have over them is that we have the case dimensions of the .315 cartridge. And it is not a perfect match.The IOF case is longer and there are other variations as well. Also the 8x50R Austrian was initially a black powder cartridge.
At best we can say is that the IOF chaps were 'inspired' by the 8x50R Austrian cartridge just the way Bollywood directors are inspired by Hollywood movies The end product has no resemblance to what inspired it.
shahid
Jan 05, 2008
Needless to repeat again, but it will hold good, all IFG members are requested never to fire any other 8 mm cartridge in an IOF .315 rifle apart from IOF .315 ammo. Not much will be available in India anyway.
Similarly, do not attempt to fire the IOF .315 cartridge in any other 8mm rifle even if it chambers or fits. The end results could be extremely extremely dangerous and may result in very serious injury / disability or death.
It is an unwise thing to do and there should be no lure / temptation towards such experiments.
I have heard of some people attempting to fire 20 Bore cartridges in 500 Express double rifles. THis is also a totally wrong practise. DO not attempt such things.
Grumpy
Jan 05, 2008
I agree with your general conclusion Sukhpreet... but possibly not with some of the specifics. I`m happy to accept that the IOF .315 is fundamentally the same as the 8x50R Mannlicher.
As far as the minor differences in dimensions are concerned, manufacturing tolerances could easily account for those... especially as I would bet a largish amount that the dimensions were not taken from the original Steyr drawings but from measurements of actual cartridges (and dimensional variations would have varied on those anyway) and chambers of imported rifles... which would have had wear already. Add manufacturing tolerance variables to manufacturing tolerance variables and you end up with a near(ish) copy.
As such, I consider your suggestion that using 8x50R ammunition in an IOF .315 could be potentially dangerous to be eminently sensible.
kuduae
Jan 06, 2008
1.) To grumpy: The .303 uses .311" bullets - .008" difference, the .315 uses .323" diameter bullets - .008" difference also. Solution: Both cartridges were named not for their groove/ bullet diameters, but for their nominal bore diameters in the old European fashion. The usual groove for jacketed bullets is 0.1mm= .004" deep.
2.) The idea that the .315 was derived from the .303 is ridiculous! While the 8x50R has a base diameter of 12.6 mm (absolute maximum for ammo factories), the .315 IOF 12.4mm (taken from actual IOF cartridge), difference .2mm=.008", the .303 has a base diameter of only 11.68mm=.460", .7mm=.028" under the .315 IOF case. As any accomplished handloader knows, you can shorten and reform case bodies and necks to fit other bullet diameters and chambers, but you have to start with a case of a base diameter that is not more then .2mm undersize unless you want to go into a danger zone.
3.) the only rimmed cartridge in both the 1925 and 1928 Kynoch catalogues is the "8mm (.315) Mannlicher" The others with the "(.315)" monicker are the 8x57S Mauser and the 8x56 Mannlicher-Schoenauer, both rimless. The 8x56R M30 Hungarian Mannlicher was not yet existing
4.) The British had a tradition to make their rifle cartridges to fit very loose in the chamber to take care of deformed cases, dirt and so on, or, by today's standards, grossly undersize. This tradition may have been taken over by IOF. On a rimmed case the head-to shoulder dimension is not as critical as on a rimless case, as the rimmed ones headspace on the rim. A too short shoulder or smallish case body will simply fireform out to conform to the chamber, but if overdone or the case is of inferior metal, the base will tear off on firing, a frequent complaint against the .315 IOF cartridges!
5.) The pressure given by Kynoch for the .303 Mk VI load is 17.5 Tons per Square inch, 18.5 for the .303 Mk VII, but only 14.0 for the 8mm (.315) Mannlicher.
6.) Something is always lost in translation, for example: Rigby's named the 7x57 Mauser cartridge ".276 Rigby" (have you noted? as the 7x57 uses .284" bullets, again the difference of .008"!) and had cartridges made by Kynoch. All pre-war .276 Rigby rifles were made, barreled and (German) proofed by Mauser as 7x57s. As the 7x57's dimensions were fixed in the metric system in the first place, they had to be converted for Kynoch's use to inches. Later, when the Brits had joined the CIP, the Kynoch dimensions in inches were converted back to mm. Now we have two sets of slightly different dimensions in the German proof tables for the 7x57 and the .276 Rigby, but both are still interchangeable!
shahid
Jan 06, 2008
Thanks for sending me the Manton catalouge by Fax Kuduae.
It is established beyond doubt that the .315 cartridge is adapted from 8 mm (.315 ) Mannlicher - For Austrian, Bulgarian and Greek service rifles.
Both the loads shown in 244 grain and 154 grain bullet would chamber in the BSA made or IOF .315 rifles.
The origin is quite clear, obsolete tools were purchased in the 1960s when the manufacture of IOF rifles and ammunition was started. As expected Kynoch was the maker of this ammunition. I had mentioned earlier and wandered if BSA made rifles there had to be an English producer of cartridges for this calibre, but I guess it never found favour on UK soil, and was mostly exported to the old colonies.
kuduae
Jan 06, 2008
Well, I believe BSA Lee-actioned rifles in .315/8x50R Mannlicher were only made for those colonies - India and the Sudan - where the military .303 cartridge was prohibited for civilian use. In Britain, Canada and other parts of the world there was no reason not to use the original. Another example: Pre-WWI German gun catalogs like Burgsmueller's recommend the 9x57 Mauser "especially for our African colonies where the (military) 8x57 is banned."
penpusher
Jan 06, 2008
What Kuduae has posted reveals nothing more than what we already know but for the fact that the Kynoch catalogue of 1925 mentions the 8x50R Austrian as the .315. That alone establishes nothing. All that can be concluded, if at all, is that rifles of English origin with the caliber marked as .315-8mm are chambered for the 8x50R Austrian cartridge. Nothing more. To give out that the 8x50R and the .315 IOF cartridges are interchangeable, as these posts seem to imply, would be foolish. It might lead the unwary to try to fire one in the other with possible disastrous consequences for the firearm and/or the shooter.
kuduae
Jan 20, 2008
Dear Sukhpreet,
As I am the guy who found .315 BSA rifle and cartridge in Manton's 1925 catalog, I posted the relevant pages in my personal album, so you may have a look yourself and don't have to rely on shahid's statements.
Handloading and cartridge collecting may be outlawed in India, but I am fully licensed to do so here in Germany. I have got quite a reference collection of cartridges, and the ".315" cartridge pictured by Manton's looks exactly like the 8x50R Mannlicher in my collection, but very much unlike any other of the 20+ other 8mm cartridges I have got. Besides, it is the only 8mm cartridge I know that shares the same ballistics, 244grs at roughly 2000fps, with both the 8x50R and the .315 IOF. It is definitly not a necked up .303 case, as such a thing with its smaller base diameter and more tapered body would look entirely different to me.
By the way, you once complained about a "Mannlicher-Schoenauer fitted with a box magazine". May this have been one of the ultra rare Haenel/Suhl M1900 or M1909 rifles In short order I will post photos of these too.
penpusher
Jan 20, 2008
Kuduae,
What we seem to have concluded so far is that;
1. The IOF .315 cartridge bears a strong similarity to the 8x50R Austrian Mannlicher cartridge.
2. Though the 2 cartridges look alike, there are however differences in the case dimensions of the two.A likely result of the loose manufacturing tolerances slowly leading to the IOF .315 cartridge evolving into a beast of its own. 3. This coupled with the lack of knowledge about the chamber pressures at which the IOF .315 cartridge operates would make it unwise for any one to try to fire the IOF .315 cartridge in any rifle meant to fire the 8X50R Austrian Mannlicher cartridge.
4. BSA did make rifles in 8X50R Austrian Mannlicher cartridge. Some of these rifle may have been designated as being chambered for the .315 cartridge as per the whims and fancies of the proofing house/ gun manufacturer.
There is a strong monetary angle involved here which goes beyond the mere question of the origin of the IOF .315 cartridge. Any rifle for which ammo can be bought easily sells for a mind boggling sum in India. A result of the 1986 restriction on the import of firearms.Therefore unscrupulous dealers, of whom there are plenty, try to make a fast buck by resorting to questionable methods that can endanger the lives of their customers. So a BSA rifle chambered for the 8X50R Austrain Mannlicher cartridge being sold as 'imported .315 rifle' means big bucks for the dealer/seller.
The IOF .315 cartridge may fit in the chamber of a BSA 8X50R rifle and may also safely fire in it for a couple of times. Considering what we know, would you say that this is a safe practice???
Can we now proclaim to all and sundry, based on a photograph and the apparent similarity of the 8X50R Austrian cartridge to the IOF .315 cartridge, that the IOF .315 cartridge can be safely fired in any rifle chambered for the 8X50R Austrian Mannlicher cartridge as both are the same?
BTW loading cartridges for personal use is legal in India.
kuduae
Jan 20, 2008
First, before using any cartridge in any older firearm of dubious origin, I try to gather as much information as I can: First, I study the proof marks and try to interpret them. Then, I make a sulphur chamber cast, drive a lead slug through the barrels and mike both carefully to establish what cartridge may fit and to find out if these still conform to the proof. The I disassemble a cartidge of unknown vintage to find out more about bullet diameter, powder charge and so on.
Now, to the 8x50R/.315 IOF/ .303 British/ Lee actioned rifle problem. IOF on their home page assign to the .315 IOF a mean working pressure of 18 tons per square inch, the same pressure given by Kynoch in 1925 to both the high speed 154grs load of the "8mm (.315) Mannlicher and slightly less then for the .303 174 and 150 grs sporting loads at 18.5 tsi. As you know, you cannot simply recalculate the old tpi readouts into bar, because the Brits used the Woolwich apparatus, which used the oiled cartridge case as the piston to push back a movable breech which in turn worked on a copper crusher. This thing, because of higher inertia, gives about 20% lower readouts then the Rodman copper crusher system used on the continent.
The modern piezo-electric transducers still give even higher readouts. The modern European CIP proof tables list the 8x50R at 3100 bar and the .303 at 3200 bar mean allowable working pressure, to my tastes close enough to the IOF and Kynoch figures. The .308 works at 3600 bar.
So, if the critical case measurements as headspace estalished by the rim, case base diameter, overall case length and bullet diameter fit the rifle's chamber within acceptable tolerances, I would not hesitate to use a .315 IOF in a rifle proofed for the 8x50R or vice versa. But, I really trust only ammo made by myself, especially if the factory stuff is of apparent low quality.
penpusher
Jan 21, 2008
There are THREE rifle cartridges referred to as .315 in the Kynoch catalogue 7.9 (8mm Mauser) 8mm Austrian Mannlicher (8X50R) and the 8mm Mannlicher Schonauer. In all probability the BSA is chambered for the 8X50R Austrian Mannlicher cartridge.
I will say it again, "Please do not consider the IOF .315 cartridge and the 8X50R Austrian service cartridge (referred to as .315 in an old Kynoch catalogue) as being interchangeable. If you do so, you do it at possible risk to yourself and the rifle."
eljefe
Jan 23, 2008
8x50R Mannlicher
Thats what the 8x50R and 303 look like - about as related as a holland is to a new art light works. Any 315 IOF for a comparison?
specs and pics from: http://www.municion.org/8mann/8mann.htm
kuduae
Jan 23, 2008
If someone bothers to make a chamber cast of a .315 IOR rifle, here are the minimum chamber dimensions for the 8x50R Mannlicher cartridge, as prescribed by the European proof houses, just for comparision, as measurements taken from an cartridge case may differ in some areas:
thickness: 1.5mm (as Lee action barrels have no recess for the rim, you have to add this to all length measures taken from the chamber cast)
L1 length to shoulder: 40.55 mm
L2 length to neck: 43.87 mm
L3 to end of case chamber: 50.60 mm
L1-L3 including the 1.5mm rim!
P1 base diameter: 12.64 mm
P2 shoulder diam.: 12.22 mm
H1 neck diam. at shoulder: 9.19 mm
H2 neck at end of chamber:9.04 mm
G1 start of throat: 9.04 mm (again, so there may not be a pronounced step)
length of throat: 22.9 mm
Lots of fun in converting and comparing!
TwoRivers
Feb 28, 2008
Greetings one and all! Stumbled upon your site recently while researching something else, when my eye caught. ".315 India". Hadn't seen this in about forty years, since an article about it was published in the late 1960s in "Guns Magazine".
It is simply the Indian version of the 8x50R Steyr, a.k.a. 8x50R Mannlicher, a.k.a. .315 Mannlicher Rimmed; the old Austrian military cartridge. When the .303 and .450 caliber cartridges were prohibited in India and the Sudan, BSA lost its market for Lee-Enfield sporters in those countries, and found a cartridge suitable for the Lee-Enfield action in the 8x50R, already being loaded in Britain. Ballistically it bettered the .303 slightly, 244 grain bullet at 2025 fps, versus 215 gr. @ 2060. So, when Ishapur phased out military Lee-Enfield production, it was only logical to follow in the foot steps of BSA for their sporting rifle. The French Lebel has a rim diameter considerable larger than the Lee-Enfield's bolt diameter, .630" vs. .585", and is NOT suitable for the Lee-Enfield action.
The Type 45 Siamese cartridge is but a variant of the 8x50R Mannlicher. Same case length, but longer neck and thus shorter case body. It can be safely fired in a rifle chambered for the 8x50R Mannlicher.
Original military barrels had four rounded deep grooves, with a rifling twist of 250mm. I would assume that BSA/IOF used a ten inch (254mm) twist since they had the machinery for that one. Groove diameter is larger than that of the Mauser, at 8.25mm (as a sporter), with maximum bullet diamter the same at 8.22. If the bullets tend to break up, that's the fault of the IOF ammo. Bonded bullet technology is something new. Nobody but IOF loads it anymore, though the similar but longer 8x56R (misnamed Hungarian) is being produced in Serbia and available in the US.
Ishapur Lee-Enfields, while never comparing in quality to their British or Lithgow counterparts, were serviceable. From all I read on this forum, they must be of pretty sorry quality now.
As to aluminum bolts, or bolt handles, not likely. Not even from IOF! More likely a coating or plating. Industrial chrome plating is not the shiny "chrome" we are otherwise accustomed to.
shahid
Feb 28, 2008
Its only a chrome polish, but new models are all black paint again.
IOF ammo has its own set of problems, which requires a seperate thread on its own.
A lighter bullet weight for the .315 was also available but never offered by IOF.
TwoRivers
Mar 06, 2008
Grumpy: Yes, there is such a thing as a ".303 Sporting". Two, actually. Seems that after the last Great Debacle quite a few Lee-Enfields had found loving homes in the French countryside, but were illegal, being a military caliber. So, set the barrel back a turn or two, and rechamber to a shell shortened by 2 mm, and you have the 7.7x54R, aka ".303 Sporting". CIP lists it. A very smilar round was developed in Australia, New South Wales, if memory isn't betraying me, for the same reason. Then there was the .303 rimless, or semi-rimless, by Fraser for Mauser actions. Cheers!
TwoRivers
Mar 17, 2008
Standard twists of Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifles/catridges were as follows: 6.5mm/200mm/7.87"; 8x56/250mm/9.84"; 9x56/280mm/11"; 9.5x57/300mm/11.8". The Steyr 8x50R also has a 250mm twist, perfectly adequate for the 244 grain bullet. As far as accuracy with lighter bullets is concerned, the culprit is not the twist but the long throat and deep grooves of these old military calibers. Plus the fact that the military bullet was of open base design and would readily upset and obdurate the bore, whereas a bullet with solid base cannot do this to the same degree.
When the Hungarians adopted the Austrian M31 cartridge they apparently decided to start from the upper end of tolerance to enable them to refresh the rifling of M95 rifles on hand, and re-cut the rifling (not rebored) and rechambered. Twist is the same for Austrian and Hungarian 8x56R rifles, and ammo is interchangeable. Also, they may have been prohibited under the Treaty of Triaon to have ammunition commonality with Austria (or Germany), and took an easy way around. These old military calibers were designed with deep grooves and wide lands and usually used a bullet smaller than groove diameter, bullet diameter was then increased when a lighter, shorter bullet was adopted. Hope this clears things up a bit.
shahid
May 25, 2008
Came acros a Holland and Holland 1910 Catalogue which was reproduced in 1976 as a collectors item.
That Item lists H & H Lee Enfield bolt action rifles.
Available for 12 Guineas (Pounds Sterling I assume) Lee Enfield action rifles in .303 and 8 mm / .315.
It also talks of a great double caliber in those days called .465 India. This is not the topic to discuss this, will start another string later, as this is the .315 topic thread.
This discovery goes on to prove that the LE Action .315 was a fairly popular cartridge / caliber in British residencies / colonies overseas.
For hunting Deer sized game a lot of other calibers were also recommended which I will list in another topic. Plenty of trivia in there.
shahid
May 25, 2008
Grumpy wrote:
I can`t be bothered to deal with idiots. I`ll just explain one more time that
BSA built rifles might have converted to .315 in India but they didn`t
commercially produce .315 rifles. PERIOD !
Guru Grumpy it has now been researched and discovered that not only BSA but even the holy of the holies H & H also produced Lee Enfield action .315 rifles.
ngrewal
May 29, 2008
The saga of .315 IOF goes on and we have all learnt quite a few nuggets of information along the way with lively contentious exchanges. Shahid is correct rifles were made by H and H. I am no expert on such things listed below is an email. It should shed some more light and let's try not to talk over or down to each other. Maybe experts could figure out whether IOF .315 is same as one listed below. Other option is getting hold of some one at IOF. Best
------------------
Thank you for your enquiry regarding .315 Lee Enfield rifles and the Holland & Holland connection.
Holland & Holland has never made Lee Enfield rifles but have produced Sporting rifles built around the Lee Enfield or what was known as the Lee Speed action. These actions were fitted with new H&H barrels, had the mechanism re-worked, stocked with best quality walnut and finished in the traditional H&H style. (far from the rifles pictured on the Indian Ordinance web site).
The rifles we produced were offered in two calibres .303 & 8mm (which according to an old Kynoch ammunition catalogue was 8mm / .315 Mannlicher) which quite correctly was as listed in the H&H brochure circa 1910.
I hope this clarifies the situation and if you feel that I can be of any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me.
TwoRivers
May 31, 2008
Vikram:
1. Britain bans the use of .303 (and .450) caliber sporting rifles in India and the Sudan.
2. As a consequence, BSA, and other makers, who have been producing .303 rifles on the Lee action, lost that market.
3. They look for a cartridge of similar power that will work in the Lee, and is loaded in England. The 8x50R/.315 Mannlicher is a good match; British makers start to build Lee rifles chambered for the .315.
4. IOF starts production of sporting rifles on the Lee action in the 1960s, the old prohibition is still in force.
5. IOF does what the British makers did. Obsolete everywhere else, the 8x50R Mannlicher is reborn (or should I say reincarnated) as the .315 India; as the cartridge had proven itself in the Lee action and is a bit better performer than the .303.
Trust me, it's the same cartridge. If you stop by, I'll sell you ten nice red and yellow boxes of it. The fellow whom I sold the rifle to, didn't want solids and only took the softpoints. Probably didn't intend to shoot it much since it had a poor bore; and I haven't gotten around to building another one. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck; it most likely is a duck.
MoA
Jul 26, 2008
Cartridge specs...
penpusher
Sep 26, 2008
Indian,
The IOF .315 is nothing more than an Enfield No 1 Mark 3. The accuracy of the rifle would depend a great deal upon how the fore-end is bedded. I would suggest that you buy a copy of 'Accurizing and shooting Lee Enfields' by Ian Skennerton for your brother, if he decides to buy the IOF .315.
An easy way to ensure that the point of impact does not change is to ensure that all the screws are tightened. The trigger guard screw in all the IOF .315's has to be replaced. The threads are all buggered and it is, in fact nothing more than a pin. The king screw (the one ahead of the magazine) has to be as tight as possible and the fore-end screw that goes into the base of the rear sight has to be tight. If the the butt stock retaining screw is loose, it can also lead to vertical stringing.
Feeding problems can generally be rectified by tweaking the feeding lips and polishing the feeding ramp.
Buy it, take off the wooden furniture and dunk the metal bits in thinner. Use a brass brush and strip off the black paint RFI is so fond of these days. The action is rough as a result of the machining marks. Any good gunsmith can smooth these out. Most of the rifles have not been head spaced properly. Again refer to advice about a GOOD gunsmith.
shahid
Nov 09, 2008
After 22 pages of discussions what were the new findings.
Not only did BSA built .315 Rifles but even Holland and Holland made them. Source - Page 44, H & H 1932 Catalouge and H & H 1924 Catalouges.
BSA 1956 Catalouge. All these are in our posession now.
Manton & Co, Calcutta 1924 catalouge.
A .315 Rifle was sold for a princely sum of then GBP 8.
Coming back to this century.
.315 is made at two factories in India. IOF Ishapore and IOF Tricihapalli in South India, wherever trichapalli is Madras state (Tamil Nadu) or Andhra. I understand Trichapalli might be same as Trichi where there's a Regional Engineering College.
This Trichichapalli made IOF .315 is supposed to be a much better finish one.
It was being retailed for only INR 54,000, a very attractive price, about the price for a new WIN Model 70 in the USA. Not bad considering a 30-06 in India costs anything from 2.5 Lakhs to 8 Lakhs these days and going up.
A gunsmith in Allahabad offered to do it up, single piece stock, reblueing, three shot concealed in stock magazine, new silver filled iron sights, swing scope plate, no it was really worth a try. I bought it. Should arrive here in Delhi within a couple of weeks.
If I don't like it no problem. Will sell it and buy a 7x57, plenty are available.
winnie_the_pooh
Feb 05, 2010
Tworivers,
RFI chaps don't machine the bolt. It is chromed as it is after casting, with a rough outer surface. The chrome plating is durable but also harder than the receiver which is differentially hardened. The bolt then works on the receiver walls like a file. Remove the chrome plating and the bolt cycles much smoother with a bit of judicious lapping. The bolt is made of steel. No aluminum bolt is going to pass proof at 18 tons mean pressure.
MSandhu,
Buy the RFI rifle. No use paying 15,000/- for a better paint job, which is what the "better finish" of the Trichrapalli rifle is. The barrel has a strange profile and is in fact, thinner than the barrel of the RFI rifle which is pretty slim and whippy as it is. The one Trichrapalli rifle that I saw had the magazine follower with the tabs, that should be bent downwards bent in the reverse direction. Also they have eliminated the cut in the receiver wall that is there to eject fired cases.
Esskay
Mar 16, 2010
Hello folks,
A new member here and have been following this thread with great interest. Found some information that may be of interest:
http://home.att.net/~vintage-gunlore/8x50r.htm
8x50R AUSTRIAN MANNLICHEROn June 20, 1886, the Austro-Hungarian government approved the adoption of the M1886 Mannlicher "straight-pull" rifle for its armed forces. This rifle was designed to use the large M77 11MM Werndl cartridge, using black powder to propel a 360-grain, paper-patched bullet at a muzzle velocity of about 1,440 fps.
By the time production of the new arms had begun, it was already apparent that the large caliber lead bullets then in widespread use were becoming obsolete. Some European nations (France and Portugal, for example) were already moving forward with military rifles using smaller caliber bullets (8MM) fired at higher velocities, with corresponding flatter trajectories and a wider range of "point blank" dangerous space.
Crown Prince Rudolph (Emperor Franz Josef's only son, and heir to the throne), acting in his position as the Austro-Hungarian Inspector of Infantry, was widely criticized as bearing responsibility for Austria-Hungary's decision to continue use of a heavy 11MM lead bullet, even after approving the adoption of a new rifle design (the M1886 Mannlicher "straight-pull").
(Rudolph's later star-crossed romance with a commoner, and their tragic deaths at a royal hunting lodge in 1889 - assumed to be a murder-suicide - has been the subject of a number of films, including "Mayerling," released in 1968 and starring Omar Sharif and Catherine Deneuve.)
As a result of experiments with smaller diameter bullets, the 8x50R Austrian cartridge was developed in the late 1880s for use in the M1888 Mannlicher "straight-pull" rifle - a simple redesign of the M1886.
The new 8x50R cartridge was originally loaded with black powder, and was designed to shoot a 244-grain round-nosed bullet with a lead core and a full metal jacket. Some sources indicate that the original official designation of this original M88 black powder cartridge was 8.2x53R.
The black powder propellant was soon changed to a new "semi-smokeless" powder, and then, in 1893, to an all smokeless, nitrocellulose powder. This improved M93 cartridge was used in the M1888/90 and M95 series of Austro-Hungarian longarms - including those employed by Siam, Greece, Bulgaria, and others - along with a number of South American countries.
Congressionalist rebel troops used captured M1888 Mannlicher rifles firing the 8x50R cartridge to win the Chilean Civil War of 1891 -- marking the time that modern small caliber repeating rifles were employed in combat.
Various sources indicate that the Model 1893 8x50R cartridge was designed to fire a .323" diameter, 244-grain round-nosed, jacketed bullet at a muzzle velocity of about 2,034 feet per second (620 meters per second). Smith indicates a working pressure of about 42,000 p.s.i. for this cartridge, although other sources list a working pressure of only 28,000 psi.
In its 1904 ammunition catalogue, the Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM) listed the "Mannlicher M88 Oesterreich" cartridge (DWM No. 358) with an empty case length of 50.60 mm, and a .3248" diameter (8.25 mm) round-nosed, 244-grain (15.8 gram) FMJ bullet.
The 8x50R was the principle cartridge of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in World War I, having seen previous service during the First and Second Balkan Wars. After World War I, this cartridge continued to see widespread service in Europe, Asia, South America and Africa. Rifles surrendered to Italy during and after World War I were used by Italy during World War II, and also by partisan units throughout southeastern Europe. Ethiopia, China, Czechoslovakia, Poland and Yugoslavia are also said to have either adopted or used this cartridge.
This headstamp is from an 8x50R cartridge manufactured in Bulgaria in 1935. This particular cartridge was Berdan-primed, and loaded with a .32325" diameter, 243.4-grain, round-nosed FMJ bullet over 39 grains of an unknown smokeless flake powder. The case is Berdan-primed. My own experience with these Bulgarian rounds resulted in chronographed velocities in the 1,950 fps range out of a M95 long rifle.
Reloading data is not readily available for this cartridge, although Phil Sharpe included a few loads in his classic "Complete Guide to Handloading."
When referring to this data, please bear in mind that DuPont's smokeless 17½ powder was later replaced by its 3031, and the recommended loads for these two powders can be assumed to be interchangeable. Likewise 4759 can be substituted for DuPont's old SR ("Sporting Rifle") 80. Bullets listed by Sharpe as "MC" are metal-covered, or jacketed (as opposed to cast or swaged lead bullets).
John J. Donnelly, in his "The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions" recommends a load of 27.9 grains of IMR4320 under a .323" diameter, 224-grain lead bullet.
These Sharpe and Donnelly load recomendations should be restricted to use in the M95 family of longarms, and not be used in M1888 or 1888/90 arms. The dropping wedge bolt locking system employed in the earlier guns was designed for use with black powder cartridges, and is not as strong as the later rotary bolt locking design employed in the M95s.
In his "Cartridges of the World" (7th Edition), Frank Barnes lists a number of loads -- all of which are stated to be safe in good condition M1888 rifles:
BULLET (grs.) 227 SP 159 SP 244 SP 244 Ball 196 SP POWDER IMR 3031 IMR 3031 IMR 3031 FL FL CHARGE 48 45 45 FL FL MUZZLE VEL. 2460 2040 2010 2030 2310 MUZZLE ENERGY 2142 2102 2200 2240 2320 COMMENTS Approx. mil. loadHirtenberger sportingSome sources indicate that empty Boxer-primed cases for reloading can easily be made by trimming and fire-forming 7.62x53/54 Russian cases. However, my own experience (using Lapua brass) was not successful: the head diameter of the Russian cases was considerably undersized, and the cases failed to fire-form enough in the head area. My recommendation is to go with Buffalo Arms 8x50R Austrian cases -- Boxer-primed, and made up from .45-70 brass. Unfortunately, bullets for reloading are another story. Although both .323" cast and jacketed bullets are readily available, I have been unable to locate any round-nosed bullets as heavy as the 244-grain originals. Another problem stems from the fact that most 8x50R bores have groove diameters closer to .330" - for which .323" bullets are quite undersized - a combination ill-suited for best accuracy.
Loading dies for this caliber are available from Huntington's (RCBS), and from CH Tool & Die/4D Custom Die Company - both likely designed for use with .323" bullets.
As of this writing, MidSouth Shooters Supply offers custom Lee bullet moulds for two different heavy 8MM bullets which should work well with this caliber.
Bear in mind though, that 8x50R cartridges must first be put into Mannlicher- style clips (referred to by some as "en bloc" clips , or "loading frames") before the cartridges can be loaded into the M1888, 1888/90 and 1895 longarms. The magazines in these guns cannot be loaded with loose cartridges.
The clip functions as part of the magazine assembly, and falls out of an opening in the bottom of the magazine housing after the last loaded round is chambered. Two types of clips are pictured: the Model 1888 clip, which is a scaled-down version of the clip used with the M1886 Mannlicher and its big 11MM cartridges (and has solid sides), and the Model 1890 clip (with cut-out side panels). These clips are interchangeable, and will work in any of the M1888, M1888/90, and M95 longarms -- including those M95s which were later modified to take the 8x56R Hungarian Mannlicher cartridge (sometimes referred to as the Austrian Model 30 or Hungarian Model 31 cartridge).
Note: The reloading information on these pages has been obtained from several sources, is provided for information only, and I assume no responsibility for its use.
Updated October 19, 2006