Thread: No 4 Barrel Replacements
Retrieved: 06/09/2014
A large European barrel maker is planning on making a run of No.4 barrels. These will be threaded and chambered. They will have 4 groove rifling and will also have the bayonet lugs machined as per the originals. Anybody interested can check out:
Welcome to Lee-Enfield Rifles.
The more barrels in the first run, the better the price. Anybody interested in replacement No.1 barrels should also let Brett know when you email him.
RJW NZ
02-05-2012
Think they could be talked into making a run of H barrels for No.1 Mk3?
Centurion
02-05-2012
He's not sure about this. However, the same maker does Gew 98, K-98, and G96 barrels as a stock item. if they get a sizeable enough request, they are apparently prepared to make a run of whatever barrel contour and calibre is requested. For the No.4 barrels, their initial minimal run will only be 20, so I don't think it'd be too tough to get them to do some No 1 H-barrels. I've already expressed an interest in this to Brett myself and I'm sure he'd love to hear from you. He also provides adjustable two-stage trigger retrofits for both No.1 and No.4 rifles, if you were so-interested.
Capt.Mainwaring
02-05-2012
The website doesn't say anything about barrels.
Brian B
02-05-2012
Had to dig a little to find it:
Peter Laidler
02-06-2012
The trouble with barrels is that you'll occasionally get a real old beaten up barrel that shoots like a dream. Stick it on the Enfield rest and it groups like a champ - but still fails the gauge limits. It's usually the shot-out muzzles that really condemn a barrel in my opinion. Worn muzzle and you don't even need to range test it!
Still, I suppose that if the rifle is a concourse bling example for show, then a pristine barrel is one of the things you need. But a good competitive shooter, then an accurate one is all that counts.
For sniper rifles, we'd always let the sniper be the best judge. On the other hand, the shooting teams could be a real pain in the bottom. One bad days shooting was ALWAYS blamed on the rifle, barrel, slippery handguards, sling loop loose, wobbly backsight axis pin, glossy foresight, too much sun, rubbish breakfast but one thing you could NEVER blame - and that was the shooting team starlet himself.
XL39E1
02-06-2012
Already have an early pre-production Lothar Walther barrel fitted to my 4T. They sent a batch of 10 for evaluation, they do shoot too.
Thunderbox
02-06-2012
In UK, the Lothar Walther barrels fitted cost about the same as a decent shooting No.4 in its entirety. I imagine that, across the Pond, you'd be able to buy at least three very decent Enfields for the fitted cost of one of these barrels!
Lets hope they make the barrels a stock item and do a run of a thousand or so. Maybe that'll make them more accessible.
Bruce_in_Oz
02-06-2012
Doing a "drop-in" barrel will present a few challenges, especially if the receiver threads have been a bit "stressed". I understand that in the later days of "service" No.4s, there appears to have been provision for two grades of barrel: "fit to new" and "fit to used". An advance offset of about 11 degrees of the breech thread on the tenon was the only difference. Torque in the barrel and then choose a bolthead to headspace.
It's a bit of a tap-dancing act with the No.4 barrel because of the front sight and bayonet lugs. If you cut the breeching shoulder a bit short so that it can be adjusted to achieve correct torque and alignment, what effect will that have on the headspace?
The civilian market is nothing like an ordnance system in which the armourers, with their gauges, have final say on whether to rebarrel or not. If a receiver is "past it" then, as long as the receiver is destroyed by the authorised folk and paperwork is done correctly, that's it. Not many civilian shooters would be too happy with that.
A better solution is an "almost finished" barrel that requires the attention of a good gunsmith to index and headspace. At least with No.4s you have multiple bolt head sizes to play with. Doing replacement barrels for SMLEs is a bit different. Nothing that a competent, Lee Enfield savvy gun plumber can't handle.
Then again, if your bolt is dancing around in the receiver like a frog in a sock, it may be time to get a new rifle.
A while ago I got some .303 blanks made by my local barrel maker. They have 1:10: LEFT HAND, 5 groove rifling. The rifling form is a variation on 5R form found in match barrels. Bore is nom. .3025", groove is .311"; a bit tighter than the original spec. The first couple went into P-14s and shoot quite well with Yugoslav ball and various handloads. A couple of "bitza" SMLEs are being lined up for the treatment soon. Still fine-tuning the process for the No.4 barrels; Those little lugs at the front tend to complicate things.
XL39E1
02-07-2012
Apparently the Lother Walther barrels are being made to the original BSA drawings supplied to them,
Peter Laidler
02-07-2012
I notice that the site mentioned in the initial threads was talking about different calibre magazines. To be honest, I think that the originator would have more financial success if he set about developing a No.4 magazine that successfully loaded and ejected 7.62mm NATO than on the half baked cartridges that are mentioned. What the world needs are 7.62mm magazines!
Regarding barrel fitting. If I may say so, we had a ready to use rack of about 25 or so new barrels to rebarrel a needy No.4 but regardless of what the barrel drawing was, the barrel had to fit THAT rifle. No fit, for any reason = no good. Too much overturn, too little, too tight, too loose... There were MANY variations. However, while a barrel would be loose on one rifle, it'd fit perfectly on another and so on. What I'm saying is that barrel fitting and CHSing is a bit of an art and definately not a straightforward screw out and in job. We used to selectively fit THEN tighten up, then gauge, then range test.
I had to re-barrel one of our LB No4TP's a couple of years ago. And pretty well the whole tray of new F55 barrels overturned under hand pressure alone.
Brian Dick
02-07-2012
The new Lothar Walther barrels are commercial production and not military surplus so they are perfectly legal to import on an ATF Form 6. The barrel import ban here in the USA is strictly on military surplus barrels of any description or vintage. I sure wish I'd had the money to buy a few cases of the new 1955 date BSA No.4 barrels that Springfield Sporters had in the 1980's. I bought a dozen at $30 each but all are sold and installed now except for one which will stay here for my own personal use some day. It was all I could afford at the time!
bigduke6
02-07-2012
Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz
Still fine-tuning the process for the No4 barrels; Those little lugs at the
front tend to complicate things.
I looked at getting a run of No.4 barrels made few years back but, and as Peter points out its not a case of screwing the new one in and off you go, and along them lines I often thought, who would pay for an exact match and as Thunderbox points out a No.4 (shooter) can be had for the price of a barrel.
With that in mind and the fact the exchange rate at the time was dismal, I shelved the idea.
Can understand the need for an exact match for a collectors rifle such as a No.4 T, but for the average No.4 as a shooter, I would go along with what Peter says about accuracy, early on in the thread.
To me its easier to get a barrel blank contoured to the correct size (Lothar Walther charge peanuts for this option), and do away with the bayonet lugs, and the knox form, this also means the thread start is not an issue and some meat could be left on for final fitting.
If the bayonet lugs are a real issue then it would be easier to make a sleeve from an old barrel, or even get a run of them made, but regarding Lothar Walther they are an excellent company to deal with and there products are excellent.
Centurion
02-07-2012
I've reviewed all the posts and find them very intersting and helpful. Part of the interest is to achieve a better understanding of the craftsmanship skills that have been applied in the development and manufacture of these superb rifles. Any rebarrelled guns will be restored commensurate to the value of a new rifle. They will not just be "shooters." Besides they will have a 4-groove rather than a 2-groove barrel, making them somewhat different than the average rifle available "as new." Yes, I know that this may not make any difference whatsoever in their final accuracy.
newcastle
02-08-2012
4 groove rather than a 2 OR a 5 OR 6 groove barrel.
Thunderbox
02-08-2012
4 Groove already done as well!:
Centurion
02-09-2012
Bruce: thanks for the information. Walther will "short chamber" the barrels as an option. I'm wondering if adding extra length to the barrel stub and not chambering might be a better option to get the best headspace and lug alignment. Bolt heads are becoming more-difficult to buy and the advantage of a new barrel is that headspacing can be made perfect, given a little more metal to work with!
bigduke6
02-10-2012
Originally Posted by Centurion
Bruce: thanks for the information. Walther will "short chamber" the barrels
as an option. I'm wondering if adding extra length to the barrel stub and not
chambering might be a better option to get the best headspace and lug
alignment. Bolt heads are becoming more-difficult to buy and the advantage of
a new barrel is that headspacing can be made perfect, given a little more
metal to work with!
I gather the barrel stub you refer to is the Tenon? the trouble here is this combined with excess on the shoulder and a short chamber or no chamber, means more expence for the owner to get it fitted, and your creating more than one datum.
The easy way to go is reduce the shoulder and supply spacers like the sterling target barrel conversion kits, and maybe get some made like I said in the prevous post, gives the customer the option of a cheaper version.
Bruce_in_Oz
02-10-2012
The fact that the .303 is a rimmed cartridge actually makes fooling around with the tenon length a bit tricky.
The single biggest problem with the whole caper is that the range of "fit" of receivers and bolts in "private" hands is much wider than "mil spec" as per EMER/EMEIs, manufacturing drawings etc.
As I see it, the best way to set up a new No.4 barrel is to have it:
a. With an extension on the tenon that protrudes back into the inner breech ring, and,
b. So that it headspaces "short" when torqued up "square". Remember that those funny little lugs at the front have to be aligned to a fairly fine tolerance.
Then simply trim the tenon extension until correct headspace (using a disc gauge) is achieved with a minimum sized bolthead. (very close fit is good). Finish ream the chamber and start having fun.
I am just about to do a couple of SMLEs in a similar exercise. One barrel will be standard profile, the other will be to "H" barrel specs. I'll post the results as they come in.
BTW: Has anyone ever fitted a custom replacement octagonal .38-55 barrel to a Marlin 336 action? Seems like another interesting challenge!
Peter Laidler
02-10-2012
Regardless of any of the drawings, I can say with a degree of certainty, based on nothing more than my experience, that whoever makes replacement barrels, there will NEVER be a barrel that will interchange or be acceptable throughout the No.4 body range. Because while all the new replacement barrels will be made to a plus/minus toleranced drawing, so they will be fitted to plus/minus toleranced bodies. That means you will get the variables that I mentioned in an earlier thread.
But, if I was given the task of formulating the production engineering, I'd start by (sorry chaps...) saying 'forget an extended tenon or any means whereby the owner or gunsmith can re-set his own CHS'. NEVER, never, ever allow this because once you do, you'll have a new barrel fitted and CHS'd to a totally clapped out body which in real terms would warrant a No.10 bolthead! When we know that after a No.3 bolthead, it indicates a worn out body. I appreciate that another nation made a No.4 bolthead, but the design engineers and post war trials suggest otherwise. But just think about it... why didn't they just go up to No.10 - or 15?
Then I'd say that the breech end can remain as-is BUT, the rifle will be breeched up using the extractor slot as the visual guide and the nocks form square against the backsight axis pin as the breeching up torque limit. Spacers as per the late No.4s/ L39/42.
The muzzle end is machined down to accept the foresight block band and bayonet lugs that take the form of a simply machined collar that is sweated onto the barrel and squared on a surface plate.
There it is. A barrel that will fit to any body, will detect a worn-out body, will correctly align, correctly torque up and with foresights/bayonet lugs that will align. The GOOD thing about this method is that only the serious or skilled gunsmith will be capable of fitting it. Those who are politely described as 'enthusiastic amateurs' won't manage it - hopefully
Just my views thinking out aloud. But be warned, that while there will be barrels made to drawings, there are also bodies made to drawings too. That's why we had a big rack of barrels.
Bindi2
02-10-2012
I reckon the boss. head **** kicker,grumpy old man teacher has spoken and you dirty unwashed rabble had better listen up take notice and do it right or he may just come out of cyber space and kick butt. Bindi retreats to bunker with worn out Lithgow fitted with new barrel and supply of MF which is better than that RG stuff.
Surpmil
02-11-2012
Might be simpler to throw out the original design and simply thread the barrel shank as per Savage 12, 110 etc. and fit a threaded collar.
More need/market for SMLE H barrels than No.4 ones in my H.O. Outside contour is the same isn't it, but for the sight base?
Hammer forged would be nice and so would a chromed chamber and bore.
And why not some other calibres as well, with mags to suit?
bigduke6
02-11-2012
Good idea Surpmill but the Lee Enfield owning fraternity can't even get anyone to gear up to reproduce the in-demand and popular 7.62mm magazines - let alone other calibres
paulseamus
02-11-2012
Hammer Forged Barrels Surpmil, not to take away from the No.4 barrels that Centurion is organising...
Late last year I contacted Peter Sarony at Armalon in the UK.
Armalon have the ex-Parker Hale hammer forged barrel manufacuring plant.
Peter is prepared to make a batch of "L42" profile hammer forged barrels in 7.62. They would have conventional rifling (not chordial)
Peter also proposed a barrel locking mechanism to enable the setting of CHS and position of the extractor slot.
Cost of one or two barrels is a bit pricey but the cost would come down with a larger batch.
Perhaps Armalon could also make a batch of SMLE H barrels if the demand is strong enough.
XL39E1
02-11-2012
Wouldn't the best option be to use the Enfield washer system like the 7.62 barrels and have a set supplied with the barrel?
bigduke6
02-11-2012
Originally Posted by XL39E1
Wouldn't the best option be to use the Enfield washer system like the 7.62
barrels and have a set supplied with the barrel
It has been mentioned a few times.
Surpmil's idea is good I've used this system on a barrel for No.1 Mk V, I converted and also a No.4 in .45 ACP, am Just in the process of doing the same for a heavy barrel in .22 for a No.4 action, dont know what it would be like in a bigger Calibre, due to the 14 TPI, but I guess there is only one way to find out.
The locking system on the No.1 MkV below, (in .30 M1 carbine shoots like a dream) but not one for the purist...
XL39E1
02-11-2012
My only concern on that system is one of a problem with the woodwork, it might a little thin?
Bruce_in_Oz
02-11-2012
Surpmil:
Your idea of a "Savage style" breeching system is exactly the tack I took with
the AIA M-10 series. The barrels also have no extractor notch per se, but a
counterbore that accepts the bolt head shroud.
The bolt head itself has a small extractor and a spring-loaded ejector plunger fitted into it and a collar that protrudes forward of the face proper to provice cartridge retention and allow clearance for the ejector.
At the front end of the barrel there is a threaded section that acts as the seat for the fully adjustable front sight assembly.
Thus, to set one up, you simply insert a bolt assembly, screw the barrel back until it stops on the "GO" gauge and then torque up the lock collar, exactly as per a Savage 110. Wind on the front sight assembly, level it, gently cinch up the clamping screws and apply the specified wicking Loctite. (I mention "gently cinch up" because if someone went "white knuckle" tight with the hex key on the high-tensile M4 cap screws, the bore could be measurably constricted at that point.)
I never got the "Mk2" mods into production as I have had no connection with AIA for quite a few years now.
Centurion
02-11-2012
Just what I had in mind Bruce. Apologies to all for mixing "Americanese" with "Britishese" terminology. Us poor Canucks are always in the middle of these things!
Surpmil
02-12-2012
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Good idea Surpmil but the Lee Enfield owning fraternity can't even get
anyone to gear up to reproduce the in-demand and popular 7.62mm magazines -
let alone other calibres
Peter, I though you had that in hand, more or less? Who's got the original dies from Enfield?
Originally Posted by paulseamus
Armalon have the ex-Parker Hale hammer forged barrel manufacuring
plant.
Sounds interesting! In my hignorance I wasn't aware that PH had such equipment, or is it ex-RSAF(E)? IRRC some of the after-market 7.62mm target barrels had the extractor bevel cut 360 deg around the breech? That would solve the locating of the slot issue.
Originally Posted by XL39E1
Wouldn't the best option be to use the Enfield washer system like the 7.62
barrels and have a set supplied with the barrel?
I like that system, but it doesn't solve the headspace issues, or allow barrel fitting without special vises etc.
Originally Posted by bigduke6
Surpmil's idea is good I've used this system on a barrel for No.1 Mk V, I
converted and also a No.4 in .45 ACP
Don't feel bad, I defaced my sporterized No.1 MkV by fitting a brand new H barrel... couldn't resist! If your collar was made with the same profile as the standard Nock's form, would there be enough metal to support the barrel properly, or would the diameter need to be reduced ahead of the breech threads to make the locking ring thicker? It would be handy if one could keep the standard profile as it would allow use of the handguard retaining ring and standard stock and handguards. Would mean a special wrench of course, but something investment cast would be strong enough?
Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz
Your idea of a "Savage style" breeching system is exactly the tack I took
with the AIA M-10 series. The barrels also have no extractor notch per se, but
a counterbore that accepts the bolt head shroud.
Very interesting Bruce. So the threading on of the front sight base to prevent it slipping forward due to recoil? Definitely more user friendly than cross pins, though these barrels might sell better if they accept the standard sight bases?
paulseamus
02-12-2012
In relation to the ex-Parker Hale equiipment at Armalon, below is a link to the relevant part of the Armalon website.
Armalon - Hammer Forged Barrels They are very specific about both the plant and some staff being ex-Parker Hale.
Surpmil
02-12-2012
Thanks Paul. Nice to see someone keeping that skill set and machinery going in the UK. Makes me wonder once again why PH failed with all that at their disposal.
The Armalon AL42 5.56mm conversions look very impressive. Anyone shot one?
Centurion
02-12-2012
There's a US Company (Promag) that is making replacement .303 mags. I've suggested to them that they might sell a few more if they made some up to handle .308 Cartridges. Even better if the follower were modified to eject! Probably just a pipedream!
Dr. Strangelove
02-22-2012
Originally Posted by Surpmil
The Armalon AL42 5.56mm conversions look very impressive. Anyone shot one?
I fired one last month, it was lovely. Very accurate, although the cock-on- opening mechanism took a bit of getting used to. I ended up placing my thumb on the stock to aid cocking. Other than that, it was a lovely rifle and I'm seriously contemplating getting one myself!
Roger Payne
02-22-2012
I was informed recently that the ex-proprietor of Charnwood (who retained the tooling for the repro EFD 7.62mm mags) is in the process of getting another batch of mags done. No idea on when exactly they'll be available as yet, nor on price. However, they're on their way...
Brian Dick
02-23-2012
Hopefully the ejectors will stay on the new batch! I just got 3 of them back from the welder so if anyone needs one that works, I should have them available shortly. I have to refinish them with phosphate and baked Suncorite 259 first.