Retrieved: 06/08/2014
04-13-2009 Why not, I'd like to initiate a thread so that we could catalog and pass on the history of these fine, limited edition Canadian 7.62x 51mm converted target No.4s.
A little history about them from the DCRA site. http://www.enfieldrifles.ca/ri15.htm [LINK 404]
As commissioned by the DCRA, these rifles were converted by Canadian Arsenals (CA) formerly Canadian Small Arms Factory Ltd. Long Branch, Ontario. This conversion consisted of first ensuring any of the bolts and receivers used were in good serviceable condition before commencing. It followed with replacing the .303 British barrel with a new 7.62mm x 51 chambered barrel, replacing the bolthead with a stronger one, headspace was checked and the barreled action was proof tested. Each conversion was assigned a progressive conversion number and was stamped onto the barrel, receiver and bolt along with the new proof stamp. This in a nutshell was the conversion, further individual tweaking could be done by the rifles owner after initial CA conversion by replacing the 303 extractor with a 7.62mm extractor (which had a longer claw to facilitate the rimless cartridge) and adding a Sterling magazine and ejector. The Sterling magazine allowed feeding of the new cartridge and was a drop-in replacement for the 303 magazine, but required a hole be drilled in the left side receiver wall to accommodate the ejector. Another magazine option was to fit an Enfield magazine (the same as used on the Envoy or L42A1) to the rifle, but this required a small (milling) adjustment to the magazine well on the rifle, otherwise the mag did not sit deep enough in the well to allow the bolt to pick up rounds. Anecdotal evidence suggests that only British made receivers required this milling operation and that Long Branch receivers had sufficient tolerance in the magazine well to accommodate the Enfield magazine without modification. The most universal tweak to these rifle was the fitting of a Parker-Hale PH5C (303 British) or A.J. Parker TZ 4/47 (7.62mm) fully adjustable competition rear sight.The DCRA rifle in the hands of competition shooters was greatly experimented with in the form of barrel packing and bedding. The most common types of bedding found would be fiberglass and hardwood doweling, some may be encountered with a center bedded barrel and this can be in the form of either fiberglass or a hardwood block. Location of the barrel bedding may vary as each position and weight of barrel lift produced its own particular results, be it short, intermediate or long range.
It should be noted that Canadian Arsenals had many leftover barrels that were sold after they stopped doing conversions. So not all CA marked 7.62mm barrels found on No.4 rifles will actually be DCRA conversions done by Canadian Arsenals, many military armourers and civilian gunsmiths used these barrels and created their own target rifles. To be sure if a rifle was converted by CA, look for the conversion numbers.
As the DCRA rifle was not a military specific conversion, there is little solid information regarding the entire scheme. However, to the best of my knowledge, here is basically how the DCRA rifle found its way into the Lee- Enfield history of things.
The Canadian Army Rifle Team DCRA Rifle
These rifles were selected from Army Weapons Stores and will most always be converted on a Long Branch receiver and will display the C Broad Arrow government ownership mark on the wood and metal. The conversions were done at Canadian Arsenals Ltd as the others were however, again most if not all were further modified with an Enfield magazine and 7.62mm extractor. Combined with the basic conversion, these rifles were stocked with new furniture and accurized by CA. All of these rifles were fitted with AJ Parker TZ4/47 rear sights and hardwood dowel bedded. Rifles of this type were stamped with a C inside an Oval.
DCRA "Club Gun" Conversion
The DCRA "Club Gun" will generally consist of the same features as the shooters conversion and may be converted on any make of No.4 action. It is difficult to say with any certainty but it is believed that these rifles will have a 5G inside a box electro-penciled onto the receiver left side buttsocket above the serial number. These rifles will more than likely be complete with the target sights and a target swivel, or should be. Some "club guns" may have also been accurized by CA as examples show both the 5G and C inside an Oval markings.
Shooters Conversion
Anyone interested in having a conversion done by Canadian Arsenals (CA) could submit there No.4 barreled action complete with bolt, no stock, to their DCRA club and the rifle would be forwarded to CA where the conversion would be done and the piece was sent back in reverse order complete with removed 303 British barrel, the cost was under $50.00. Re-stocking and/or bedding were the individuals concern. It should be noted that CA would convert any No.4 receiver, it did not have to be a Long Branch made one so any No.4 rifle can be found converted. What distinguishes the CA conversion as authentic is the conversion number. Another type of "shooters conversion" will be those done up by armourers and gunsmiths using purchased barrels from CA. These particular rifles will not have CA conversion numbers and can be built on any type of receiver and be stocked in any type of No.4 lumber.
#001 /Brit FTR - superbee #005 /Long Branch' 44, 75L (Action only) - RRCo #011 /Long Branch' 49 - unknown #012 /Brit FTR - For sale in BC. #016 /Long Branch' 43 - Can14 #034 /Brit FTR - For sale in BC #040 /Brit FTR - California, Brian B #048 /Long Branch' 44 - NateC #059 /Long Branch - Has been seen! #069 /Long Branch - Unknown #073 /Long Branch' 49 - DarrenK21 #098 /Long Branch - bearhunter #106 /Long Branch' 42 - Can14 #108 /Savage - Unknown #112 /Long Branch' 42 - For sale on E&E #113 /Faz' 55 - J.T. #115 /UF55 No4Mk2 - Collector in the US #126 /Long Branch' 45 FTR'ed 52, was for sale in BC #138 /Brit (F) FTR' 42 - Reconboyz #148 /Long Branch' 43 - Mikerock #149 /Long Branch' 49 - unknown #152 /Long Branch' 45 - dumpdog #161 /Barrel only - Greyman441 #177 /FTR (F) - Unknown #188 /Barrel only - 4 Sale #191 /Savage FTR 1/3 - unknown #2** /Savage - M1Grand #204 /Long Branch' 43 - For sale #217 /Maltby - Forsale on E&E #221 /FTR (F) - Dutchie #268 /Long Branch' 50 - Kjohn #282 /Brit (F) FTR' 49 forsale #315 /Long Branch' 43 - Anonymous #325 /conversion tag found! #346 /Long Branch' 44 - Anonymous #351 /Long Branch' 45 - Anonymous #360 /Long Branch' 43 - Joe Salters site #377 /No4 Mk1/2 FTR' 55 - millwright #390 /Long Branch' 45 - P.E.Islander #397 / For sale #407 /Long Branch - Mech #409 /Long Branch' 43 - Sasquatch807 #411 /Long Branch' 44 - Can14 #427 /Long Branch' 43 - For sale - Zefarm.net #428 /Long branch' - In California, USA #440 /No4 Mk2' 56 - 36 hamon #452 /Long Branch' - bykerhd from the US #465 /Long Branch - Maple_leaf_eh #477 /Brit/Fulton' 50 - griaguns #478 /unknown - unknown #488 /Long Branch' 50 - millwright #491 /Long Branch - Khornet #498 /(Barrel only) - Corben1 #499 /Long Branch - Connaught range club #502 /Long Branch' 50 - superbee #506 /Long Branch' 50 - Bren Mk1 #515 /Long Branch' 45 - 4Sale@Accuracyplus #517 /Long Branch' 50 - Mr Brown #519 /BSA M47/C - Collector in the US #522 /Long Branch - Anonymous #529 /(Barrel only) - Unknown #540 / ROF Faz - for sale on e&e, belonged to LCol Rex Fendicks #542 /Long Branch' 44 - millwright #544 /Long Branch' 43 - Mr Hamilton, '67 Palma match? #546 /Long Branch' 45 - Collectors source, Like new, sold! #548 /Long Branch - Khornet #562 /Long Branch' 43 - Rapt, for sale on E&E #565 /Maltby' 42 - for sale - Joe Salter's Auction #570 /Brit ROF - forsale Unknown #575 /Long Branch' 43 - Khornet #599 /Long Branch' 45 - Mr Reid #6xx /Long Branch' 45 - Ranger762 #620 /Long Branch' 43 - Badger #624 /Long Branch' 50 - myenfield #633 /Long Branch' 42 - barreled action #635 /Long Branch' 43 - unknown #636 /Long Branch' 44 - Mr Bjornstad #644 /Long Branch - Corben1, '67 Palma match? #650 /Long Branch' 45* - millwright #661 /Long Branch' 43 - Collector in the US #683 /Long Branch' - RjWhitman- 4 sale E&E #692 /Savage' 42-FTR - Woodchopper #704 /Long Branch - Has been seen! #707 /Long Branch' 50 - Joe Salter's Auction #710 /Long Branch' 42 - For sale @ Firearms Canada #713 /Parker Hale' 44 - NAA #731 /BSA/Shirley M47 - millwright #771 /Long Branch' 45 - Switzer's Auction #782 /Savage - millwright #784 /Long Branch' 43 - TCBF #796 /Long Branch' 43 - Barrel cut to 21''/Unknown owner #797 /Long Branch' 42 - ArtyMan #8xx /Unknown - Bonnie&Clyde@surplusrifle.com #801 /Long Branch' 45 - granite #804 /BSA Shirley FTR - Anonymous #807 /Long Branch' 56 - Anonymous SAC markings on receiver #808 /Long Branch' 56 - Anonymous #810 /Long Branch' 56 - unknown #843 /Long Branch' 50 - For sale #850 /Long Branch' 45 - longbranch* #868 /Long Branch' - Sold in England, Charnwood Ord Collection #871 /Bolt only! - RRCo #886 / unknown - unknown for sale e&e #888 /Brit conv - Bolt and receiver only #905 /Savage-FTR - myenfield #928 /Long Branch' 49 - bearhunter #934 /Long Branch' 50 - Bren_Mk1 #948 /Long Branch' 50 - PIAT #966 /Long Branch' 44 - For sale in Ontario #977 /Brit FTR - marba #979 /Long Branch' 55 - Joe Salters Auction #981 /Brit No4 Mk2 - Unknown #983 /Long Branch' 45 - For sale #988 /Long Branch - dr1953 #1009 /Long Branch' 45 - 4Sale in BC #1010 /Long Branch '45 - FlightRN #1011 /Brit No4 Mk2 - millwright #1012 /Long Branch '45 - tplumtree #1014 /Long Branch' 44 - Gairlochian #1022 /Long Branch' 55 - Cantom #1031 /Long Branch' 44 - Ganderite #1036 /Savage Reg'd by Fulton - Ganderite #1039 /Long Branch' 45 or 46 - Anonymous #1044 /Long Branch in Saskatchewan #1049 /No4Mk2, in the US, Newcastle from Milsurp.com #1061 /Long Branch - Angel #1071 /Brit?CAL conv to target rifle - Joe Salter/4 sale #1074 - Barrel only #1131 /Long Branch' 50 - millwright #1132 /Long Branch' 50 - Billybob,4sale #1135 /Barrel only. RRCo. #1156 /Long Branch' 49 - longbranch* #1167 /Barrel only - Anonymous #1174 /Unknown, likely in the US #1180 /Long Branch' 44 - Collector in the US #1181 /Long Branch' - unknown #1182 /BSA-FTR' 52 - millwright #1199 /Long Branch' 43 - HeadDamage #1202 /Long Branch - Khornet #1204 /Long Branch' 50 - Ganderite #1213 /Long Branch' 44 Sportco - Ganderite #1217 /Long Branch - marba #1224 /Savage' 43 - Unknown #1226 /Long Branch' 49 Unknown #1227 /Long Branch' 56 - Unknown #1234 /Long Branch' 42 - LeeEnfield #1246 /Long Branch' 44 - Joe Salters Auction #1249 /Longbranch' 44 - marba #1290 /Long Branch' 50 - Unknown #1297 /Long Branch' 43 - Can14 #1298 /Long Branch' 45 - Can14 #1301 /Long Branch - superbee #1302 /Long Branch - superbee #1303 /Brit '50 ''T'' - Can14 #1304 /Brit - 240gord/For sale on E&E #1306 /Long Branch' 43 for sale - V Isle gunshow #1308 /Long Branch' 45 - for sale, years back @ Joe Salters Auction #1317 /Longbranch' 44 - forty4Forty #1320 /Longbranch - In the Ottawa area #1341 /Faz' 43 - Karl #1346 /Long Branch - Angel #1358 /Long Branch - dr1953 #1361 /ROF (F) - SOLD!, Gagnon Sports #1367 /Long Branch' 50 - Hal O'Peridol #1369 /Brit No4 - stencollector #1383 /Long Branch - lavoltiges #1389 /Barrel only - Sold on CGN #1390 /Long Branch' 43 - millwrightl #1417 /Long Branch' 49? - 4Sale? #1431 /Long Branch' 4* Anonymous #1436 /Long Branch' 43 (former .303 target?) - LTR-4 sale #1449 /Long Branch' XX (former .303 target?) - Corben1 #1450 /Long Branch' XX (former .303 target?) - Corben1 #1462 /Savage regulated Fulton' XX - 4 sale @ gunbroker.com #1479 /Long Branch' 50 (former .303 target?) - superbee #1488 /Long Branch' 49 - Bren Mk1 #1522 /Long Branch' 44 - No barrel. - Unknown #1528 /Long Branch' XX - One piece stock. Unknown #1538 /FTR - Can14 #1541 /Unknown - Pvt collector in BC #1542 /Long Branch' XX - Unknown #1549 /Barrel only, rifle destroyed. ex-RCAF DCRA rifle #1554 /Bolt only #1573 /Long Branch `43 - JMJ #1585 /Long Branch '43 - For sale on the E&E #1591 /Long Branch - Angel #1618 /Long Branch' 43 - cantom #1627 /Long Branch' 43 - M39A2 #1630 /Long Branch' 43 - unknown #1633 /Long Branch' 43 - DOOK #1639 /Long Branch' 43 - '67 Palma Match? & converted to 5.56mm #1643 /Long Branch - Angel #1651 /Long Branch' 43'67 Palma match? Owner unknown #1654 /Bolt only on #1658 - Collector in the US #1658 /Long Branch' 43, no bolt - Collector in the US #1667 /Long Branch' 43 for sale - Joe Salter's Auction #1678 /Long Branch' 44 - Can14 #1690 /Long Branch - Bud Haynes Auction, 07 #1692 /Long Branch - Unknown #1693 /Long Branch - LouThePou- sporterized and 4 sale in the EE #1694 /Long Branch' 43'67 Palma match? Owner unknown #1697 /Long Branch - Kamloops gun show #1701 /Long Branch' 44 - Calgary gun show'14 #1710 /Maltby& other parts - DrZooker #1717 /Long Branch CNo4 Mk1*' 50 - millwright #1721 /Long Branch - For sale, Gunbroker.com? #1723 / For sale - Wilke #1727 /Faz no4 mk2, bolt only! - Collector in the US #1763 /Long Branch' 43 - Gairlochian #1764 /Barrel only - Anonymous #1768 /Long Branch' 43 - Unknown #1775 /Long Branch' 43 - Heavy_Dark #1795 /Long Branch' 41 - farmnut #1818 /Long Branch' 50 - Can14 #1822 /Long Branch' 43 - Corben1 #1825 /Long Branch' 50 - Unknown #1827 /Long Branch - lavoltiges #1831 /Long Branch' 43 - #4mk(T) #1832 /Barrel only #1859 /Long Branch' 44 converted to .22LR - Ganderite #1861 /Brit FTR- Fulton - Empire arms in florida #1882 /Long Branch' 50 - Collector in Ottawa with L42 barrel #1891 /Long Branch' 50 - Unknown. #1894 /Long Branch' 49 - CGN E&E deal, sold #1909 /Long Branch' 42 - SKScanuck #1923 /Long Branch' 50 - 4 sale, Milarms #1940 /Faz' 43 - Horsesoldier #1942 /Long Branch' 50 - For sale, Switzer's Auction #1944 /Unknown - was the highest# reported for quite some time #1953 /Faz - superbee #1982 /Long Branch' 43? - In Canada or US somewheres #xxxx /Long Branch' 49 - For sale, Switzer's Auction #???? /Savage - DOGFACE #???? /Long Branch - Light Infantry #???? /Long Branch - Light Infantry #???? /Long Branch' 50 - fleury #???? /Savage - McSherry's auction #???? /Long Branch - Kamloops gunshow' 10 #???? /Long Branch' 43 - TerryinVictoria #???? /Long Branch - Y2K #???? /Long Branch - Hardy #???? /Savage - Accurate action/sold #???? /No4Mk2 - SMLE-Man form the US Numberless /Long Branch' 45 - millwright Numberless /DND /Long Branch' 42 - superbee Numberless /Brit /FTR - superbee Numberless /FTR - marba Numberless /FTR' 51 - Can14 Numberless /Long Branch' 49 - Can14 Numberless /Long Branch' 44 - Can14 Numberless /Long Branch' 50 - marba
Light Infantry
04-13-2009
Wasn't someone doing an audit and summarizing the data on all the ones out there very recently?
55recce
04-13-2009
My understanding is that the .303 mag was used as a single round loading platform. Both of my DCRA rifles and most that I have seen have the .303 mag. I did try a 7.62 Enfield and a 7.62 Sterling mag in mine. Neither would seat fully so it seems that conversion is required.
Did see an original sling on one at the Calgary show. First one I have seen.
Boom-Boom
04-13-2009
I'm #1383....
I worked quite a bit to get a 7.62 mag to seat... and feed properly.
I also added proper extractor and PH proper front and rear bases.
Also have Ph5C with Match Tunnel front sight and PH rings.
She shoots like there's no tomorrow. I feed her 7.62 type of loads, a bit milder than my Rem 700 to respect her condition. She likes 155 and 168 as well.
Not sure about the SN on these but I had two rifles and both were superb shooters (one is gone to another home...)
tiriaq
04-13-2009
These conversions were for slow fire prone target shooting. They were single shot.
If you want a repeater, there are ways to do it, but if any permanent alterations are made, it's bubba work. Don't confuse British military or Sterling conversions with these.
CAL would install the conversion barrels on other than LB actions. I do not know if CAL did any bedding or other stockwork on rifles that were sent in. I doubt it.
As the rules changed, many of these rifles were altered in an effort to get them to shoot better.
Somewhere I have a copy of a DCRA newsletter detailing different bedding systems, which were tested in an effort to improve performance.
tntcbag
04-13-2009
Yes, the DCRA's are nice bit of Canadian history.
Back when the shooting sport was promoted.
Two really good sites are:
"Dominion of Canada Rifle Association (DCRA) Rifle History"
"Parker and Parker-Hale Service Rifle Sights"
Everything you want to know about that rifle and the sight that belongs on it.
I have the sight just need to find the rifle that belongs with it.
sunray
04-14-2009
"...back in the mid 60's?..." Mid to late 50's. Pretty much as soon as the 7.62 NATO became the service cartridge.
stencollector
04-14-2009
I suspect the DND had some of the mags in the system. I found 6 of them at the local military scrapyard in a garbage can tucked away in a shed. They cost me $10 each. That was 10 years ago mind you. There were other special items for the DCRA rifles catalogued in the supply system as well. The long ejector screw had it's own special number, and the orange colour forestocks from Cdn Arsenals used to come with a tag on them that mentioned DCRA as well.
woodchopper
04-14-2009
Yes you can add that mine was built on a Savage reciever that got the upgrade at Faz to the Mk2 trigger so its a No.4 MkI/3
I think that the Mk2 trigger may have been a bit of an advantage in DCRA shoots.
Airborn_69
04-17-2009
Which is the most common "Competition" sight on the No.4 DCRAs?
longbranch*
04-17-2009
My first two DCRAs had PH5C sight. Just last week I acquired a 1949 LB DCRA 7.62 rifle that has what looks like a C No.7 rear sight. I'll show pics once I get it home.
Airborn_69
04-17-2009
Does it look like a standard LE sight but with eye piece aperture?
Vimy Ridge
04-17-2009
Originally Posted by Airborn_69
Which is the most common "Competition" sight on the No.4 DCRAs?
PH5Cs, followed by AJP TZs and PH4s.
Vimy Ridge
04-17-2009
Originally Posted by Airborn_69
Does it look like a standard LE sight but with eye piece aperture?
Pretty much, but it has a windage adjustment.
Vimy Ridge
04-17-2009
Originally Posted by longbranch*
My first two DCRAs had PH5C sight. Just last week I acquired a 1949 LB
DCRA 7.62 rifle that has what looks like a C No.7 rear sight.
A PH4 maybe?
#4mk1(T)
04-17-2009
I still have 1831 but recently came into possession of 1183.
This one is built on a BSA No4 action that went through an FTR in ‘52 and was upgraded to Mk 1/2 trigger. Someone was well on the way to converting it to a repeater as the receiver has been modified to accept a 7.62mm mag. and an ejector that is similar in concept to the Sterling but of a different design has been added. My 2A1 mag snaps right in and the rifle loads and extracts flawlessly but needs a 7.62 extractor to eject properly. It needs a bit of cleanup but I'll have it up for sale in the EE in a bit.
superbee
04-19-2009
Hi, here is a pic of my 3 DCRAs.
The top 2 are consecutive conversion #'s 1301 and 1302.The top one is a highly polished "prize" rifle. Looks to be hardly used.The other one is a regular conversion. Both are fitted with sterling mags and 308 extractors.
The bottom one is built on a British MK2 receiver with all LB parts and fitted with a Enfield 308 mag. It is conversion # 1953. Has anybody seen a higher #?. I haven't seen one higher in 25 years. It looks like less than 2000 offical conversions were done.
I think these rifles are very under valued considering so few were built.
Somebody should write a history of target shooting in Canada before all the info is lost.
LawrenceN
04-19-2009
Okay, here's my 2 cents worth in this thread. I had one of the Sterling conversions at one point. It had the Sterling mag, and the proper extractor/ejector. Here's the headslapper! My brother drops into Toronto Gun (now defunct), and sees an Lee Enfield sitting there in the corner. He notices that there's no bayonet lugs on the barrel, so he asks the sales guy, "How much!" The guy hands it to my brother, who sees that there's also the Parker Hale target sights on it. He gets it for $135.00! There's no serial numbers or military possession stamps on it. Since we're so close to the old Long Branch factory, we're assuming it to be a "hand built" rifle used by their "in-house" rifle team. It came from some old women's estate in the area.
He also got a brand new 7.62 barrel for another $15.00, and had the assistance some CF armourers in modifying another #4 he had into the 7.62 format. He wrote and pestered the Brits until they sent him ALL of the old magazines (2) and extractor/ejectors (3) that they had kicking around. They then politely told him to F*&k Off, and never bother them again. To the best of my knowledge, he got the last spare parts they had, so they ain't no more to be had from the source. He later bought mine as well, which had a beautiful walnut stock with lots of figure on the butt. Now I sort of kick my ass for letting him buy it. Bear in mind, this was all some 15 years ago.
Airborn_69
04-19-2009
I heard that there was about 3000 7.62mm conversions done, but that DCRA statement says about 2000.
Airborn_69
04-20-2009
Originally Posted by #4mk1(T)
If I had the money on hand this one would be on its way to my house:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum...d.php?t=329946
Parker Hale 5C sights AND a Sterling Magazine for $650.00?
Why has nobody snapped this one up?
I'm almost tempted...
Corben1
04-21-2009
Rather poor photos of conversions 1449 & 1450.
I've been trying for 25 years to find out the meaning of the 5G in electric pencil on these oval C marked conversions. All I've seen were so marked.
Lee Enfield
04-21-2009
I've examined 7.62mm DCRAs in various flavours:
Long Branch No4MkI*
Savage/Faz No4MkI/3
Fazakerley No4Mk2
Maltby No4MkI
REALLY Ugly BSA/Faz No4MkI/2
Ian Robertson
04-22-2009
When I started shooting these were a fairly common rifle. I really don't remember ever seeing a 308 mag on any of these rifles except the then new Envoy and the like. Every time I see a 308 mag on a DCRA rifle I think it is a Bubba, I could be wrong but I don't think so and fitting one is not correct and plainly wrong. When 7.62 came in the service rifle was the FN so SR shooting was done with it and not the #4 so there was no need for them to feed from a mag or eject so they did not. Our club had an issue of FN's from DND which were handed out to members for the season for SR.
If we go back to 303 days the #4 was used for both SRa and SRb (tr and sr) and did need to feed and eject for sr which it did. Issue sights were required for sr and that is why I have seen very few ejector screws long enough to function with a 5C or an AJ, eject was not needed on a tr gun so no one bothered even for 303. The same gun was not used for both tr and sr.
khornet
04-22-2009
I do not look at a DCRA with a Sterling mag as a bubba because by the late 60`s and well into the 70`s it was not uncommon to see the conversions with these magazines. Was it correct for the rifle? not really but when one shooter does it sometimes others follow. Is it right that these rifles have had a 7.62 extractor added when they came back from CA with a 303 extractor ?
I have handled a DCRA conversion with a Stirling mag that had the 303 charger slot repaced with one for a 7.62.
As Vimey Ridge points out he is still waiting for an updated pic and on his rifle it even had a tag issued at the Bisley range stating Target Sights, Magazine Sterling Square Box.
Some of my DCRA numbers
491
548
575
1202
tree mugger
04-23-2009
I know a fellow who has the DCRA conversion that shot 2nd in the Governor General's match in 1967. It was owned by the last RCAF Queen's medalist.
As far as the "Bubba" stuff, the QM winner put a VERY ROUGH Monte Carlo stock on this same rifle on the ranges at Connaught, during a competition. Having done it himself, at a match, for the purposes of shooting TR, to me, makes it unique not a bubba.
The rifle also went to Bisley.
Ian Robertson
04-23-2009
I agree tree, and by putting the original butt back on it is once again original, same as the mags. Many seem to think there was a set way things were done but there is a lot of variety. The real "official" conversions were done for DCRA but many tr guns were put together from parts and therefore don't have all the expected markings. They can have anything from #4 wood to a fiberglass stock and I guess they are conversions as well but not "official" DCRA conversions. While we were still on issue ammo everyone had a #4 for long range but at the end I doubt any were in original wood (I have a rack of this stuff, all of which was a Bisley with me or someone else). My point is really that many think there should be a 308 mag with these guns (perhaps with some rare exceptions) but this is not the case. They search for a 308 mag thinking it is needed to make it all original and it is not, hopefully they don't misplace the original mag especially if it has a matching number. I expect to see a friend soon that was well involved during that period and I will try to squeeze more info from him on this topic.
Lee Enfield
04-23-2009
What I find facinating is the bedding variations which were tried. At one point I had about 25 bedding variations in my accumulation of high quality junque.
Standard No.4 stocks go from the fitted standard military bedding (shims glued in to result in the perfect muzzle, knox & draw bearing surfaces and weights), thru about 3 main variations of centre bedding and end with basically a fibreglass pillar bedded free float.
A lot of machinists layout blue was used to ensure perfect fitting of the stock to the gun.
Interestingly it seems that the actions were glued in on a regular basis. So if your forend is not budging DO NOT attempt to force it off.
Also I've seen handguards which are totally free floated. Handguards which are rear, centre or front bearing "dampened", and handguards which are "packed" to totally ensure the dampening effect along their whole length.
Trigger guards were also regularily shimmed and bedded.
Everything was tried at some point, match legal or not.
Workmanship ranges from beautifully blended and fitted professional custom gun grade to hack and dab "bubba watch this..."
Corben1
04-23-2009
Can't forget the 'rake screw' forestocks, LE. If the forend doesn't come off easily, remove the butt and look for screws inserted into the forestock from the butt socket. You can bet there have been some well done forestocks ruined from forcing the issue.
I have a No.4 conversion done this way that came to the U.S. with a returning 1967 Palma Team member. This rifle sports a complete set of beautiful laminated wood and I can't imagine ripping that apart.
Fortunately, one of the upper handguards is marked as having rake screws installed.
Ian Robertson
04-23-2009
I have a SMLE set up this way but the screws go to the rear and are accessed through the mag well. In the #4 303 days the SMLE was still used for long range and the #4 for short and mid.
cantom
04-23-2009
Originally Posted by Ian Robertson
I have a SMLE set up this way but the screws go to the rear and are
accessed through the mag well. In the #4 303 days the SMLE was still used for
long range and the #4 for short and mid.
Interesing info there, I'd never heard of that rake screw setup, valuable info to know, I imagine people have indeed ruined forends trying to remove them not knowing about that...
Lee Enfield
04-23-2009
Originally Posted by Corben1
Can't forget the 'rake screw' forestocks, LE. If the forend doesn't come
off easily, remove the butt and look for screws inserted into the forestock
from the butt socket. You can bet there have been some well done forestocks
ruined from forcing the issue.
I have a No.4 conversion done this way that came to the U.S. with a returning 1967 Palma Team member. This rifle sports a complete set of beautiful laminated wood and I can't imagine ripping that apart.
Fortunately, one of the upper handguards is marked as having rake screws installed.
Yes, I did forget this. I haven't had one myself, but have held at least one locally. Seen ones which just dimple into the butt socket, and ones which thread into it.
They seem to have been quite popular in Australia judging from the pics of SMLEs so equipped that have shown up on the internet.
#4mk1(T)
04-24-2009
Ok so this one is mine. As I understand it the full conversion, including
bedding, was done by CAL. The weapons techs who did the work put their
signatures on the inside of the hand guards. The original owner was a VISL
shooter and used it here in Nanaimo.
Corben1
04-28-2009
I'm always amazed at the condition of those conversions that remain more or less original. The main reason, I'm sure, is that these conversions were in the hands of good caretakers, and their service length was short.
Many of the DCRA conversions were converted to target rifles and saw considerable use at the 'longs' over the years, especially in the days of poor service ball ammunition. These were used by the competitors due to the actions being checked for cracks, etc. at the time of conversion. These generally show wear from years of use. I would not want to guess how many of these conversion actions I've seen with butt sockets chopped and stuffed into Ian's stocks.
Only one conversion in my collection shows a lot of use. This one came from Maj. Dick Hampton, along with a letter stating that it was one of the 1967 Palma rifles. This baby has been there and the barrel is rigidly cork bedded. Trust me, it remains very accurate!
Here is some history given by Maj. Hampton. Hard for me to believe it has been that many years ago!
Ian Robertson
04-28-2009
In fact all official DCRA conversions were intended as target rifles and nothing else. By the end of issue ammo most of the #4's for lr were made from any old #4 that one could find. None of my #4's in 308 started life as an official conversion although I am sure some did get cut up and "improved". In the start conversions were tested for cracks etc but by the end any #4 was used and approved after a visual inspection. I am not aware of any problems with this method.
Interesting to take note of the last dozen or so lines of Dicks letter with reference to mags, extractors and ejectors. I rest my case.
Dick gave me a new in the white conversion barrel at one point which I still have.
Corben1
04-28-2009
No disagreements, Ian. Any No. 4 action served as the basis of a LR rifle.
The collectors of today might have a hard time understanding that the conversions were just rifles years ago. Thank God quite a few survived.
From the early years of going to Connaught, I found it extremely odd that little regard was given these conversions among the target shooters. Also, little regard to other bits like common and laminated stock sets. The latter being highly sought after today.
Those that think the 308 magazines (and other mentioned parts) should be a part of a DCRA conversion should take note of that letter.
Just prior to that letter, Dick had received and adjusted the 1982 Palma Sportcos. The number was 120 total. One hundred were right hand and twenty left hand. I tend to wonder if that number didn't stick in Dick's mind, as I seem to recall that only about sixty of the 1967 rifles were produced for the three teams of twenty that attended the match. I certainly wish someone could straighten out my thinking on that issue.
Hal O'Peridol
04-29-2009
I've got 1367 built on a 1950 longbranch receiver.
#4mk1(T)
05-01-2009
I'd like to add my opinion on this but let me start by saying to those who have added the 7.62mm mag. to there rifles let me just say these are your rifles so do with them as you will. Who am I to judge.
Now my 2 cents:
As designed both the Enfield and Sterling 7.62mm conversions required modification to the receiver. You can get around this with a bit of modification of the mag but if you were going to do the job correctly these mods would need to be done. As I see it if these mods were not done by the armory, in this case Canadian Arsenals, at the time of conversion then that magazine does not belong on the rifle. If it did then they would have done the work needed to make the rifle function properly.
Having said all this I think that having a 7.62mm mag on an otherwise original DCRA rifle is a bonus and adds to the value. P.E. Islander put it very well when he said:
Originally Posted by P.E. Islander
I added an L42 type 7.62 mag and 7.62 extractor. Does this make me "bubba"?
I hardly think so. Take the mag out and reinstall the .303 extractor and the
rifle is back as it was when I bought it. Is it original? No. It it fun to
shoot? Yes!
Now if someone is contemplating doing the work needed to the receiver to make an original DCRA rifle into a repeater I have one that someone has spent a lot of time on getting it ready for what looks like a Sterling magazine. It’s an original DCRA conversion built on a Brit. receiver that was FRT’d to a Mk2 trigger that I’ll be putting up for sale in the EE for a reasonable price as soon as I can find some shipping boxes.
Ian Robertson
05-01-2009
In the 303 days there were "approved" bedding methods. I believe the idea was you could do a rifle that belonged to HRH this way because it was suitable for service as well or removable. Most of these ideas would have carried over to 762 conversions as well. I don't believe that any rifles were done when converted but bedded afterwards by a wide range of people.
tiriaq
05-01-2009
I have the DCRA newsletter which describes tests of different bedding techniques used with the 7.62mm conversions in an effort to get them to shoot well. Don't know if there ever was an optimum system developed for the conversions before the rules changed, and major modifications were permitted.
Corben1
05-01-2009
# 517 1950LB Maj. C. M. Brown
# 544 1943LB Maj. R. W. Hampton
# 636 1944LB George Bjornstad
Maj. Brown's rifle has been converted to target rifle, but still makes use of a portion of the original laminated forestock. The barrel is a heavy Omark. The butt, I think, is Parker-Hale. The addition of the Sterling magazine was done without modification to the receiver.
Maj. Hampton's rifle remains in the service wood, with barrel rigidly packed with cork.
George Bjornstad's (long time Sec'y of the Illinois State Rifle Asso.) rifle uses center bedding and came to me with a sporting butt.
Being familiar with each prior owner adds special meaning to me, regardless of any modifications.
bearhunter
05-03-2009
I have 098. All of the parts, except for the mag, which isn't marked and looks to be a Sterling clone and the trigger gaurd, which is milled, are Long Branch marked. The rear sight is a PH-5C. There aren't any marks on the butt socket other than a broad arrow with a faint 54 under it on the right side. Looks to have been made up on a new unmarked No4 MkI receiver as it has the bolt release latch. There aren't any marks on the left side of the receiver either. The left receiver flat has 5 holes that were filled and evidence of milling at the two locations. both areas were polished to clean up the work and reblued. No, the hole paterns don't match the pattern for the T rifle scope mounts. The 098 mark is preceded by an arrow pointing up and the bolt, which looks like a a #5 hollow knob type looks to have been British. The serial number is on the right upper corner of the receiver and on top of the bolt handle.
If you guys want pics, someone will have to post them for me as I am computer challenged and only manage to screw up each time I try to post any.
Airborn_69
05-03-2009
You likely have the Enfield clone, not the Sterling since I have the same unmarked mag. the arrow is correct for DCRA.
[very long thread, mostly details and nitpicking after this]