Front ignition

Retrieved: 08/27/2016
Last Post: 11/10/2008

Could anyone tell me where to find info on front ignition for rifle cartriges? I am tooling up to try this and I have only found one article, by Stan Skinner, explaining his work and Rocky Gibbs' work on this. Are there other sources? Anyone tried this themselves? Opinions?

perry shooter
11/09/2008

There was a guy that sold cartridge with a stainless head that screwed into the brass case walls This had a tube that went inside to duct the primer flame to the neck area of the cartridge. I bought 20 and tried them in my 25/06 but was not worth the trouble of taking cartridge apart to reload them "to get the old primer out" what you gained in not pushing powder down the barrel you lost in case capacity so Muzzle velocity was just about the same . It did have much less MUZZLE flash at night but you can't hunt in the dark in my state. Group size was load dependent and was no better with the best load and no worst with the worst load then normal brass.

rufe-snow
11/09/2008

There was a paperback book written about Rocky Gibbs and his experiments. I had a copy years ago. My understanding of the matter is that Gibbs developed his front ignition cartridges in the late 40's/early 50's time frame. This was before the event of readily available cronographs. Once cronographs were available to actually check his claims for increased velocity, they were not substantiated at safe operating pressures. Nowadays with the different powders that are available, front ignition might be viable?

cussedemgun
11/10/2008

rule.303,

I have a book, "Guns, Loads, & Hunting Tips" by Bob Hagel, by Wolfe Publishing Co in 1986. The first chapter is a report on the OKH line of wildcat chamberings. (OKH stands for O'Neil, Keith, & Hopkins) C. M. O'Neil formed a co. and recieved a patent for Duplex loading which was the front ignition system. This work and patent were about 1936/1937.

Everything I have read on front ignition has come to the same conclusion, "looks good on paper but not worth the trouble".

Me thinks you are about to try to re-invent the wheel! Have FUN & let us know how it turns out.

jonk
11/10/2008

If I might ponder, what is the point? It would seem silly to me in that the combustion would move rearward, possibly causing a pressure spike or what not.

nononsense
11/10/2008

The goal of this technique was to attempt to ignite the powder charge more efficiently in order to control the burn rate of the faster powders that were the only choice at the time. Not only was the construction of the cases labor intensive but the outcome was an insignificant improvement when compared to the standard primer method of ignition. The availability of the then new, slower powders pretty much ended this journey.

FLASH TUBE - A tube from the flash hole extended into the powder chamber, for more uniform ignition.

An excerpt from Ken Howell:

"I discussed 'front-ignition' loading at some length -- around 1955, 1956, 1957 -- with two of its earliest experimenters and former proponents, Charlie O'Neil and Elmer Keith, whose experiments preceded Rocky Gibbs's, I believe. They'd already sold me on it, through Elmer's earlier writings. But by the time we talked about it, they had dropped it as no longer worth the trouble with the new slower powders.

The mere presence of the flash tube reduces the capacity of the case and thus alters its interior ballistics in ways not all beneficial. As if that isn't enough, getting the right size of straight brass tubing and fitting it to the cases are forbiddingly difficult. The tube also absorbs heat from the primer flash (cools it, IOW), and the flame is already cooler the farther it travels before it ignites the powder, without the further heat loss from warming the tube.

So I considered this kind of loading carefully for a long time -- for a long time intended to use it -- but the cooling of Charlie's and Elmer's once-great enthusiasm for it also cooled mine.

Around Viola, Idaho, there was no place or way for Rocky Gibbs to test or judge his theories in those days the way we'd check 'em out today. I honestly don't know whether he'd be as sold on forward ignition today as he was then.

I think it's significant that except for Rocky Gibbs and possibly one friend whom I'm not sure about, everyone I've known who has worked with it at great length has abandoned it.

That's enough for me. I have more than enough to do as it is."

Rifle Issue #147

"Front Ignition Loading Technique" OKH, O'Neil, Keith and Hopkins came up with system of loading a cartridge case and found recoil reduction, velocity increase, and muzzle flash decrease. The US Government found out and put them to work experimenting with the .50 caliber case during the WWII. The entire process was kept a secret as the government was afraid the Germans would find out about it. In 1946, after the war, the truth came out. Both Elmer Keith and Rocky Gibbs described the methods and the article shows the work I did duplicating their results. Rocky Gibbs wrote a pamphlet entitled "The Front Ignition Loading Technique". I only know of two copies. The complete pamphlet was republished in the book "Gibbs Cartridges and the Front Ignition Loading Technique." - Roger Stowers, author.

This is Rocky Gibb's work put onto a CD ROM for a reasonable price:

http://www.chartingnature.com/books.cfm?book=B16406

v35
11/10/2008

There was an article on it in one of the older Gun Digests.

As I recall, flash tubes were also tried in artillery rounds and maybe used in recoiless rifle rounds.

It might be worth a second look on heavy recoiling cartridges such as shoulder fired 50 BMG rifles.

The system may also be worth the trouble in some of today's super magnum revolver rounds and other dangerous big game cartridges.

As was mentioned above, repriming is a bear.