Topic: Paper wad over primer

Retrieved: 01/11/2015
Last Post: 03/14/2006

One of the top shooters in my area told me about this, putting a paper wad over the primer to slow down the burn and get a more uniform discharge.

If this does make a difference should the wad cover the entire bottom of the case or just the primer?

AeroE
Mar 02, 2006

All I can say is - you go first.

Are you sure he isn't pulling your leg? Did you get guidance about what sort of paper and thickness to use?

Anything is possible, but retarding ignition doesn't seem like the first thing I would try.

Kelley O. Roos
Mar 02, 2006

Moonshine Swiller,

I lot of guys have use the wad over primer, normaly newspaper, some with good luck and some not so good. Try it and if it works, your good to go. If not no harm experiamenting.

Ranch 13
Mar 02, 2006

Now you can call me stupid (I'm sure several do) but when you do that underpowder wad do you punch a flashhole thru it or just let it burn like a bull durham paper?

Ray Newman
Mar 02, 2006

Just drop in the case, then add the powder charge.

AS KO said some have had success, others haven't. Just something else to try.

The most important aspect of this signature line is that you don't realize it doesn't say anything significant until you are just about done reading it & then it is too late to stop reading it...

PowderFlask2
Mar 03, 2006

Just as some use pistol primers with a milder ignition, the overprimer is meant to do the same thing, ignite the powder but milder than a large rifle primer would normally (I've talked to a couple of guys who are using them with pistol primers also).

If you are shooting a 45, just punch out some 45 wads out of newsprint, stick them in the case and push them to the bottom using a wooden dowel or whatever (some advocate a little thicker paper, like say magazine covers) Thats it, make sure its laying flat on the bottom and load as usual.

Give it a try and see if it works for you (it will not hurt your gun, leave paper in the bore or other bad things) some have said it made a difference but slight, tightened groups at longer ranges, others, no difference and not worth the time.

Let us know what you find works in your gun.

Moonshine Swiller
Mar 03, 2006

Thanks gentlemen, I will try a few round and let you know if it was worth it in my rifle

white owl
Mar 03, 2006

I tested it in my 40/65 and it seemed to make no diffference, neither in accuracy nor in more consistent velocities.

I used 1 sheet of newspaper punched out with my normal 40 cal wad punch, and placed it inside the case.

I've heard of people using up to 7 of these wads inside their case. Some also put the paper on the outside of the cases by placing a piece of newspaper on top of their priming tool, and then using the primer itself (during seating) to punch out a small piece of paper into the primer pocket.

In one of Paul Matthews' books, he states that primer wads improve ballistic uniformity. And yet, the actual data he presents shows no such improvement!

A year or so ago, in the "Black Powder Cartridge News", someone mentioned that they were finding the primer wads in their barrels after firing! After hearing that, and with my own experience, I've stopped experimenting with them.

gussy
Mar 04, 2006

You may not see the difference with a short trial, but over a long one, I think you will. One of the most important reasons for it is this: somtimes and I mean SOMETIMES a small grain of powder will fall into or "wedge" in the flash hole. This small percentage will alter ignition, very slightly, but enough to change things.

If you are one who does every step for accuracy, I wouldn't leave this out. It may make a small difference but if you lose by one target in a match, well...

An easy way: Use a three hole punch to make them. All they have to do is fall into the bottom of the case and cover the hole. Don't have to be tight or centered. The very thinnest paper or news print works fine.

dryfly
Mar 04, 2006

I load for 38-55, 40-65, and 45-90. The over primer wad means nothing in the first two, the 45-90 is a different story. With Goex and a Fed 215 the deviation is less and it shoots better. With Swiss and a standard Fed 210 the over primer wad makes no difference. My rifles all seem to like a less powerful primer flash.

crossfireoops
Mar 07, 2006 8:33 am

Been runnin' PWOPs, and primer choice is really about one will see a slight performance edge. EMPHASIS, on the word "slight". I don't know how you could define the edge, outside of better Chrono data.

I use a .40 cal punch, in the .45 basic cases, mushed in with a dowell profiled to the internal radius.

As these things are punched out of multiple sheets... they do have a tendency to stick together.....and you can wind up putting in a double thickness... which just knocks the whole uniformity deal off into a cocked hat... When that happens, you've introduced a variable of way greater magntude than how a powder kernel is lodged in the launch area.

If you have some "Motor Mica" ...put a sniff of it between the pages of the chosen paper, and dust it around... putting a bit in a jar, with your finished PWOPs and shaken 'em silly will help keep 'em seperate, too.

I gave up on trying to handle 'em with anything but pointy tweezers, and it doesn't take much extra time , once you've got a handle on doing this stunt.

I've thought about trying powdered Moly on 'em... but, jeez that would be a messy chore.

gussy
Mar 07, 2006

One thing I haven't figured out... I have picked up these wads after firing and there is a nice hole through them BUT they do NOT show any signs of being in a fire!! How can a piece of tissue paper stand a black powder explosion and NOT be at least singed?

One last thing. Make sure you check your empty cases. They DO sometimes remain in the case.

JCP
Mar 07, 2006

Some say to just drop the primer wad in and then pore in the powder. I say take an empty case without a primer installed, drop in the wad and then the powder, then hold the case over your head and look for the primer wad. More than likely you want see it. My experience has shown that the powder bounces the wad up and the powder gets under it and it's just like it's not there.

My point is if you use the wad make it square and large enough so you have to push it in with a dowel rod and know it's in place. If it's just there some times is't going to be another variable you don't need.

Try it and see for yourself.

crossfireoops
Mar 07, 2006

"My experience has shown that the powder bounces the wad up and the powder gets under it and it's just like it's not there."

That's bang on (pun intended )... The only way to get them to work right, and not shift, and bounce out of the way... that I could figure, was to profile the dowell to very closely match the inner radius of the case... on any given lot of brass... one usually gives it's life for science, milled open in the base area. That's pretty near what you need, in terms of profiling the dowell punch... but there's a lot of ways to skin a cat... the wad should actually form a sorta cup, once punched in. I don't see how you could get those results with a three hole punch, but haven't tried it.

"One last thing. Make sure you check your empty cases. They DO sometimes remain in the case. " The paper that I use DOES leave an annular ring of unburned material around the flash hole... which ceramic media does not entirely clean out...

Guess we've got just as much sources of variables in "uniforming the flame" as if we just left the primer naked, and just went to shooting.

ShortStake
Mar 07, 2006

Gents and Madams,

My experience with paper wads over primer holes is limited and resulted in quickly learning two habits.

1. Use .40 caliber wads in the .45-70/-90/-100 cases.

2. Insert the paper wads in the case BEFORE priming the cases.

Smaller .40 caliber wads do not bridge at the bottom of the .45-70/-90/-100 cases and inserting the wad before priming the case eliminated the trapped air beneath the wad.

crossfireoops
Mar 08, 2006

...The closer you can get that punch to fit the case, the better it'll all work.

I am inspired to try some Carbon paper. ...since we're looking for an ablative effect... who knows, it might work.

Ranch 13
Mar 08, 2006

Got to wondering what would happen if one were to build and onionskin paper cartridge complete with bullet, and then seat the whole mess in the case?

crossfireoops
Mar 08, 2006

...Maybe blow onion rings, as opposed to smoke rings...?

Ranch 13
Mar 08, 2006

NONONO the krinkly paper somewhat thinner than Bull Durham papers, not the stuff you get with your whopper at Burger King.

white owl
Mar 13, 2006

If you're going to do this, one thing you might want to try is to find some "ashless filter paper" and use it instead of newspaper.

I guess it is designed to burn with minimal residue. I've heard of at least one other BPCR shooter using it.

You could probably find it at chemical supply places.

rk38-50
Mar 13, 2006

I`ve used them and have seen good results on the Conograph #s but dosnt do much for my match scores.

I install them over the primer before its seated and use the primer to cut the wad paper as it goes in the primer pocket.

After fireing the paper is still in the primer pocket with a very small hole in the center. You can brush them out with a primer pocket brush or they usually come out while soaking the case in cleaning solution. Its not a lot of extra work and migtht work even better for You!

TYRVR
Mar 14, 2006

My shooting Buddy Red Hall, tells me that he uses "Rolling" paper wads in some of his loads, he uses the same criteria already stated here as his impetus, a grain of powder in the flash hole etc... I have not tried it and won't... for one reason... FUN! I started shooting the old guns because it is fun! the closer I come to making it work... the less FUN!

I'm sure that out there in the world there is an individual that is even now feverishly engaged in some fiendishly intricate ritual of reloading, that possibley requires the death of a chicken and star chart to complete, and when these loads are completed, each projectile will follow it's box mate in TOTALLY UNDEVIATED FLIGHT to the target creating one single hole measuring the EXACT diamtre of the projectile!... but that ain't gonna be ME! I enjoy shooting, I also enjoy loading... but not as much as shooting, and I am not one of the guys that get so caught up in making the "perfect" load for the "perfect" rifle but finds he has no time to shoot!

Now don't get me wrong! I'm all for improvement in techniques and products when it comes to the BPCR sport... but somebody has to be out on the line every weekend blasting away while the scientific bent guys think and talk about how to improve shooting... and that guy is me!

So go ahead... for days and days at the computer and the the reloading press building that super dooper never miss load... I'll be waiting right here at the range... knocking holes in paper... tilting rams from the rail, drinking a cold one at the end of the day and gazing at the stack of fired brass...