Topic: Over primer wads

Retrieved: 01/08/2015
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I'm sorry if this subject has already been beaten to death... Can anyone give me some pro's / cons of using the over primer wad ? Also, what would I use ? I am already thinking my .030 Walters wads would be a really, really bad choice!

I have seen a couple brief blurbs on the general internet about using everything from coffee filter material to zig zag cigarette paper, now I am NOT going to buy zig zags so I hope those arn't the best thing to use !!! But anyway, I sure would apreciate any info as this has always been one of those things I was hesitant to try but have heard people say really helps shave down group size at long range.

Sharpsman 45-70
Jun 03, 2013

Ya know- I'm talking to myself here by answering my own post, but- nevermind!! I found some old posts about this primer wad business and from what I read the primer wad is much ado about nothing. Maybe folks that shoot out to 1,000 yards have noticed some effect from using them but heck I can't even see that far anymore so, sorry...

Brent
Jun 03, 2013 Sharpsman 45-70 wrote:
Ya know- I'm talking to myself here by answering my own post, but- nevermind!! I found some old posts about this primer wad business and from what I read the primer wad is much ado about nothing. Maybe folks that shoot out to 1,000 yards have noticed some effect from using them but heck I can't even see that far anymore so, sorry...

Yup, you pretty much figured it out. I went down that path too, and then I gave it up. Been shooting better ever since.

Really though, I don't think they hurt a thing, but I also don't think they help. Even at 1000 yds.

Sharpsman 45-70
Jun 03, 2013

Yes, I have read alot of books by M. Venturino and articles by Steve Garbe too and I see alot of stuff they do that is really good, but really tedius. Scribing the bullet from the mold, aligning it to a scribe on the barrel, shooting the bullets in the order cast, etc. I'm just not that good a rifleman to apreciate the difference all of this would make!

Brent
Jun 03, 2013

I seriously doubt that Venturino or Garbe index their bullets anymore. In part, because after a while a lot of things that seemed to matter, after being done by a lot of people for a long time, are found not to matter after all. Remember those guys were shooting and writing in the infancy of the game. Much has changed. Much that changed, changed back. The .45-70 still rules. The .50s and .38s that were going to eat their lunches, have come and largely gone. So have many other passing fads.

That said, I spent a lot of time working with overpowder wads before I realized it wasn't the solution to the problem I was having. Other friends did even more extensive experiments and found the same. And then a guy with a high speed camera came along and debunked the "fusing" idea for flintlock flash holes which was 50% of the logic behind the wads. The best reason for OP wads now is probebly to be able to use pistol primes at the right height w/o causing breechblock problems eventually.

That said, I weigh every bullet and sort and shoot them by weight. I weigh every powder charge to +/- 0.02 gr. And many really good shooters don't. I do it because it gives me complete faith in my ammunition. When I miss. I missed. Not my ammo. Works for me at least.

Sharpsman 45-70
Jun 03, 2013

Wow, that is really good info. The black powder cartridge sport has come about to an incredible advancement, right back to the past, just like the people of the 19th century who were nailing 1000 yard targets and saying "not too big a deal!"

All I can say is, you guys here have done an awesome job.

zrifleman
Jun 04, 2013

Been using over primer wads for at least ten years now. I currently use Fed 150 LP primers with OPW from card stock (.008") There are several reasons or advantages to them. One of the most obvious is that pistol primers are about .008 thinner than rifle primers and the LP primers fill the gap. OPW used with a pistol primer dampen the effect of the primer bumping the bullet forward before the powder is fully ignited. When shot over a chrono loads using OPW post higher velocity than those without an OPW by as much as 50 fps. What I and my shooting partners see is less vertical group size at 200 yds on paper. Another side effect is cleaner burning loads---cleaner brass when you wash them at end of the day. All of the above statement has been observed by BPCR competitors on the other BPCR forums.

Sharpsman 45-70
Jun 04, 2013

OK, Now here is a different view on the OP wad. Now, from your statement are you using the .008 wad inside the primer pocket itself to raise the pistol primer back flush with the case head so there is minimal breech block battering? Am I correct or maybe it's too late for me to be discussing technical info ...been a long day... So I am maybe seeing two schools of thought on how people are installing this wad- Some folks are putting it inside the case under the powder charge and some are actually putting it in the primer pocket itself in front of the primer when using pistol primers...

Thank you for the info and I am sorry if I didn't understand correctly about where the wad gets installed.

The comment of the LR primer bumping the bullet ahead before the charge fully ignites sounds similar to what people using those "inline" muzzleoaders had a problem with. The primer mfg's came out with that low power 209 primer to eliminate the bullet jumping forward before complete powder ignition and forming a hard burnt on ring of fouling right at the spot where the bullet's base was as it was moving and also affecting accuracy.

zrifleman
Jun 04, 2013

I cut the card stock in 3/8" wide strips and feed them between the primer and the base of the shell. I use my loading press to prime with. The "bump factor really does exist. I watched a video on youtube where they loaded a clear glass barrel with BP and a ball using a primer at the rear of the barrel. They fired 2 different rounds in slow motion---plus I slowed my TV down to 1/15 of a second.

In each case when the primer fired, the ball moved forward an inch or so before the powder charge was fully ignited. If you want to feel the power of a primer---prime a piece of empty brass and fire it with the barrel resting on your foot----you won't do it again!

I'm not suggesting an unsafe practice--just trying to illustrate a point. One other fact is that original BP primers were much weaker than any of our primers today. A California shooter (Al Sledge) showed me a breech block he had to put a bushing in that was badly hammered by primer set back. Anyway--- the proof is in the improved accuracy on paper. I was very skeptical of using pistol primers and over primer wads----now I don't load without them.

montana_charlie
Jun 05, 2013

zrifleman wrote:
I cut the card stock in 3/8" wide strips and feed them between the primer and the base of the shell.

Presumably, if the over-primer-wad was inside the case, between the web and the powder charge, the wad itself could push the whole load forward when impelled by the primer.

By capturing it in the primer pocket, the wad restricts the impulse of the priming charge, but can't help move the powder column forward.

Sounds like the best way to use over-primer-wads... if one feels he needs some.

scamp62
Jun 09, 2013

As zrifleman said, the proof is what is printed on paper down range, to help speed things up I run my wad paper though a paper shredder, works great!

Sharpsman 45-70
Jun 09, 2013

Ok, Experimenting with different loads is what makes this BPCR so captivating (and expensive) ...So, I am going to try this pistol primer / OPW business myself!

I am going to go shooting tomorrow, and bring my chronograph, set some targets at 200 yards and let 'er rip.

I also like that idea of the paper shredder to trim the primer wad paper to size!

Sharpsman 45-70
Jun 10, 2013

Hey! My rifle liked the OPW! Now, I only loaded up 25 test rounds but if they are any indication of what I saw today I am on to a new line of experimentation here. My test load today was Lyman 457125 cast 20-1 lead/tin, 63 grains swiss 1 1/2 Fg hand weighed to within +/- 1/10 grain, Rem cases, Walters .030 over powder wad, Federal 150 primers, and .008 thick primer wad. I chrono'd the loads and I was getting an average of 1183 fps, 30 feet from the muzzle. This is 40 fps more velocity than I was getting using the federal 210 m primer with no OPW. The range we stopped at today was only good for a100 yard target, but I was impressed as the load was doing 5 shot groups very tightly, best one was 3/4 inch! I use a blow tube, 3 slow breaths between shots.

Now, I have another excuse to get out and cast up another 100 bullets and put some more of these pistol primer/ OPW loads together. Everytime you guys post up these new to me loads to experiment with I get a whole new purpose to gettin out and bustin some caps! Thank you again for the info.

Brent
Jun 10, 2013

Be careful, load testing is a hard disease to get over

Sharpsman 45-70
Jun 11, 2013

I am already thinking about trying a few loads with a heavy duty tinfoil OPW if the thickness is right... And of course getting a few boxes of different LP primers to try other than the Federal brand I have tons of. I might also try Swiss 3f also. I would like to work up a good Elk hunting load with Lyman bullet 457193 and 3F powder, try to get the velocity up around 1400 fps.

Has anyone used a 45-70 load with a large pistol primer and OPW in cold weather, like as you would run into during Elk season?

zrifleman
Jun 13, 2013

Sharpsman---sounds like you are off to a good start! Too bad you are limited to 100 yds. Our gun club has a 200 yd main range. Nearly every Monday a small group of us shoot 20 shots off the bench at 200 yds on an SRC target. If you get a chance try it. See if you can shoot a 200.

bluesteel45
Aug 05, 2013

A couple of my BP shooting buddies have been using a newspaper wad over the primer hole from INSIDE the case... it works great! Especially with magnum primers... both rifle and pistol primers. The theory is that is "diffuses" the hot jet up the center of the powder column and "splashes" the flame to the outer perimeter of the case and causes it to burn more completely, hence lowering the SD.