Topic: bullet lube

Retrieved: 12/19/2014
Last Post: 03/21/2008

What is the main problem with using smokeless lubed bullets shooting blackpowder?

Prairie Dawg
March 13, 2008

You get a buildup of hard fouling in the barrel that destroys accuracy after several shots. When you use BP-friendly lube, the fouling stays soft and is pushed out by the next bullet.

Dick Dastardly
March 13, 2008

Um, uh Lefty,

You said blackpowder. Did you mean Black Powder, Genuine Powder, the One True Powder, Holy Black? Or did you mean sub/replica powder?

There are some non genuine "black" powders that SASS allows that will run the bullets with the lube you mention. They are NOT black powder, but they are sometimes called that. APP is one that may do well with the bullets you describe.

If you meant the Original Gun Powder then the hard wax will mix with the fouling and your accuracy will deteriorate. The hard fouling left will be ugly to clean up. You will not be happy.

Cactus Cris
March 13, 2008

BP subs are nothing more than smokeyless powders that have an additive that make them smoke. That is why they are classified as a propellant and not an explosive like real BP is. Most if not all subs can be used with hard smokeyless lubbed boolits. Real BP HAS to have a soft lube to keep the fouling soft so the next boolit pushes the fouling out of the bore. If the fouling gets hard, the boolit presses it into the grooves and the boolit slows down the spinning it is doing and you can and will have very eratic accuracy till the fouling is gone. You probably won't see it till after 30 or more rnds. but when it goes, your done with hitting anything till the fouling is taken out. This comes from experience in shooting the BP for 10-11 yrs. in CAS and try'n them all (subs) at one time or another,going back to real BP. I know that some places can't get or use the real stuff and I don't have a problem with anyone that uses subs or fillers for that matter. I just choose not to.

Lars
March 13, 2008

Never seen chemical composition data for any BP replacement powders that are anything like those for nitro powders. Actually, the two classes of gunpowders are quite different in essential ways.

The first really successful BP replacement powder, Pyrodex, requires same type and amount of BP lube as Swiss and Schuetzen, and all require much less than low-quality BPs, e.g., Goex. APP, Pinnacle and 777 ffg are only really successful BP replacement powders that can be used quite well with hard cast, hard wax lubed bullets. In actual use, Swiss, 777FFg, Schuetzen and Pyrodex give quite similar performance, especially for CAS and shorter range (300 meters or less).

In recent years I have gone totally to 777 FFg, with Swiss for some special matches. When the Swiss loads are gone, will likely use Schuetzen or stay with 777 FFg.

There are several lubes that can be used with lead-alloy bullets for BPs, BP replacement powders and nitro powders. Currently, I use Alox Javalina for all.

John Boy
March 14, 2008

Quote
What is the main problem with using smokeless lubed bullets shootin blackpowder?

LUBE STARVATION in the bore, plus what the other esteemed gentlemen posted.

Driftwood Johnson
March 16, 2008

Basically, modern Smokeless lubes only perform one function. They lubricate the bullet as it goes down the barrel. Although this sounds obvious, the reason you need to lubricate a lead bullet is to keep the heat generated by friction down. Too much heat and the lead begins to soften and melt where it contacts the barrel. This causes the lead to bond to the steel and leave lead deposits behind. By lubricating the bullet with a waxy lube, the heat of friction is kept down.

Black Powder is different. Unlike Smokeless Powder, BP leaves a large quantity of fouling behind in the bore of a gun. This fouling quickly builds up into a dry, hard caked deposit that will fill the rifling and ruin accuracy. It also becomes difficult to remove from the bore when cleaning. Regular Smokeless bullet lubes will lubricate the bullet well enough with Black Powder so that the bullet slides through without heating up an melting, but they do nothing about the buildup of powder residue.

Bullet lubes formulated for Black Powder are much softer and 'gooier' than the hard waxes used for Smokeless Powder. When a bullet is lubed with a BP compatable lube, the soft lube will impart moisture to the fouling in the bore. This is the key. With Black Powder you cannot avoid leaving fouling behind, but if you can keep it from drying out, each successive bullet down the bore can wipe out the majority of the fouling left behind by the previous bullet. As long as the fouling is kept moist, and each bullet wipes the barrel mostly clean, fouling will not build up in the grooves to ruin accuracy, and the fouling will remain soft and easy to remove at the end of the day.

Dutch Bill
March 16, 2008

Cactus Cris writes:
"BP subs are nothing more than smokeyless powders that have an additive that makes them smoke."

That is not correct.

The difference centers on the use of an inorganic nitrate, such as potassium nitrate, as the main source of oxygen in powder combustion. With the subs such as APP, Pinnacle and Black Mag you have ascorbic acid and potassium nitrate. This gives potassium carbonate in a very fine particulate form that is ejected with the spent propelling gases. This gives the smoke. The same as seen with black powder. With smokeless powders you have no solid products of combustion so there is little to no smoke.

The difference is simply if a powder produces solid products of combustion or does not.

The subs have utterly no relationship to smokeless powders when it comes to powder chemistry or powder combustion chemistry.

Ranch 13
March 16, 2008

Bill what in those "replacement" powders seems to interact with bp lubes in a rather nasty way from time to time? I'm not real versed on those, don't really see the need, but I was given a couple cans of APP, and have had varying results as to whether or not good bp lubes work well with them.

Also took note of APP saying that in muzzleloaders it generates its own lube? Curious stuff this replacement powder.

Lars
March 16, 2008

Have used 777 FFg extensively in 44-40 rifle and revolver, with SPG, Alox Javalina, and various hard wax lubes and have seen very little, if any difference in group size over many 10s of shoots. One difference I did see, with a revolver with too tight cylinder pin, was that SPG and Alox Javaline kept cylinder spinning, whereas with hard wax lubes I needed to keep cylinder pin clean and well lubed with RemOil for same easy performance.

However, 777 and APP are quite different BP replacement powders. APP does have reputation of sometimes producing lots of unwanted crud when used with some "BP lubes" -- never bothered to note which lubes. Have not heard that about 777.

Dutch Bill
March 16, 2008

APP, or American Pioneer Powder, is just another in a long line of powders based on the concept of using ascorbic acid with potassium nitrate as invented by Skip Kurtz.

The concept has gone through a number of versions as seen in the number of different names it was sold under by those other than the inventor.

With the mixture of ascorbic acid and potassium nitrate, roughly 30 parts ascorbic acid to 70 parts of potassium nitrate the only solid product of combustion is potassium carbonate, or potash. The main gas produced is carbon dioxide. Depending on how they treat the ascorbic acid, there will be varying amounts of water produced as a product of combustion.

In the early versions of this ascorbic acid powder they would heat degrade the ascorbic acid until it turned a golden brown color. In this form it produced a good bit of water as a product of combustion. This was a problem in the small percussion ignition patched ball rifles. It would literally flood the breech in a few shots.

In the more recent versions they do not heat degrade the ascorbic acid to any great extent. This prolongs the shelf life of the powder and reduces or eliminates water as a product of combustion.

When you shoot APP or Pinnacle you get a thin film of a very minute particle size potassium carbonate (potash) in the bore. In dry weather this appears to be a dusting in the bore. At higher humidity it will quickly turn into a liquid film in the bore. This is where the producer comes up with the claim that it makes its own lube. But my experience is that this does not happen at low humidity.

So if you mix a bullet lube with this thin film of potassium carbonate it may turn into something akin to a sticky paste. Just a little bit of moisture in the bore would cause it to form a liquid. Oils and waxes simply lead to the formation of what is akin to a paste.

There is no actual chemical reactions between the lube and the potassium carbonate. It is more of a physical form thing and how easy or how hard it is to deal with.

I should also point out in this that the ascorbic acid powder versions that do not rely on any heat degradation of the adscorbic acid are usually "weak" in a gun. Especially when shooting "low mass" projectiles like round balls. As you increase the weight of the projectile relative to its diameter they begin to look a bit more powerful. These are mainly gas generating compositions that evolve very little heat. This suits them more to longer heavier projectiles.

Even with black powder you play with volume of gases evolved for number of calories of heat generated. Tailoring the powder to best suit the needs of the projectile. Which is why there were musket, rifle and sporting powders made during the 19th century.

Ranch 13
March 17, 2008

Thank you Bill, that goes along way to explaining why in colder but humid weather the few app loads fired in a 30-30 lubed with Sagebrush Alox left a really nasty gunk in the bore that I don't get with either true smokeless or black.

It must be the potash that attacks the cartrigdes so bad so fast then also.

Dutch Bill
March 17, 2008

Potash will attack brass rather quickly. Much depends on the humidity at the time.

Potash attacks brass by leaching copper from the alloy. The leaching is however almost uniform across the surface of the brass. In some cases it simply discolors the brass brown. I use technical grade potash to age brass on my ml rifles. Looks like like BP residue aging of the brass since that is the "active agent" in BP fouling with brass.

Now if the powder producing the potash, as a product of combustion, contains potassium perchlorate in addition to potassium nitrate you will get the uniform surface leaching of copper along with chloride pitting of the brass. The pitting can weaken brass in a hurry compared to any weakening by leaching with just potash.

Ranch 13
March 17, 2008

Bill those 30-30 brass were brown within minutes of being fired. I put them in my simple green solution that I already had some bp fired brass cleansing in and the rinsed and dried, and tumbled. They seem to be fine now, but I'm really not sure I'll do much more cartridge shooting with the APP.

Dutch Bill
March 18, 2008

A simple discoloration of the brass while unsightly does not cause and damage to the brass.

In working with ascorbic acid powders I learned that there are two basic versions of ascorbic acid. One will yield a combustion residue that quickly discolors the brass while the other version will not.

When I had looked at ascorbic acid I noted that a good grade of ascorbic acid ran about $9 in bulk shipments. Then there was a cheaper version at around $4 per pound. Given the price of the APP I doubt they are using the $9 per pound ascorbic acid.

Even with a good brand of BP you can get rapid case discoloration if the humidity is just right.

This is controlled mainly by the properties of the potassium carbonate (potash) in the powder's combustion residue. I played with both BP fouling and potash alone in tests to determine how hygroscopic it is and how it responds to differences in Relative Humidity.

On steel and brass the most rapid effect on the metals will happen only in a specific range of humidity. Below 30% R.H. the potash will hold no water from the air. By around 40% R.H. you begin to see the potash get damp and somewhat paste-like. When you get up into the 80 to 90% R.H. area the postash will pick up enough moisture from the air to form a liquid film. At the low end there is no effect on metals because there is no water present in the potash that would promote electrochemical activity. At high humidity the liquid film will not form corrosion cell sites on the metal.

Keep in mind that potash is a moderate strength caustic. pH usually around 8.5 to 9.0 from what I have found in the bores of my ml rifles. When you pull the fired cases from the gun you can drop them into a jug containing water with a little vinegar added. You should see fizzing as the acetic acid in the vinegar neutralizes the potash. If there appears to be no reaction you add a bit more vinegar.

Now vinegar itself can damage brass if you subject the brass to the fumes from vinegar. When immersed in the mixture of water and vinegar there is little effect on the brass but vinegar fumes are most corrosive to a lot of metals.

Simply dumping the fired cases into soapy water as soon as they are pulled from the gun will stop most of the problem even without vinegar in the water.

Ranch 13
March 18, 2008

Bill one of the reasons I like a solution of water and simple green for soaking cases in after firing with BP, the simple green seems to neutralize the residue in short order and by the end of a 2day shoot, the bottom of the jug is just covered with fine black silt. Rinse in clear water and then dry and tumble in corncob media, and the brass is shiny and new looking in short order. I've also found the commercially mixed Simple Green in the spray bottle squirted onto a patch, to be very good at removing lube and bp residue from the barrels. Wish I'ld of had the stuff when I was busy burning the touchholes out of flintlocks.

Lars
March 18, 2008

In years when I shot lots of traditional BP and Pyrodex I used whatever liquid hand-wash dishwashing soap we had at home, which was never Simple Green. Squirted a few 10s of ml in bottom of jug and filled it half-way with tap water. Tossed just fired brass in solution and finished cleaning same day. Worked just like Ranch 13 found with Simple Green, that is, layer of black crud in bottom of jug. Presume there are many (all?) liquid hand-wash dishwashing soaps that word about as well.

Main value of liquid soaps, so far as I can tell, is to remove residual lube, just like with muzzle loaders. Used same liquid soaps with TC muzzle loader for about 10 years -- total satisfaction and bore looked like new when sold.

My most discolored brass has been from Swiss, when I simply tossed just fired brass in an empty plastic bottle, when shooting a two day match in high humidity areas, like Kansas. Brass not cleaned for week or so after shooting. No visible harm to brass, other than being black or dark brown. Some loaded many times afterwards.

Least discolored brass has been with 777 FFg and nitro powders, when shooting in low humidity areas, like Arizona, Colorado high plains in summer, etc. There I just toss empties in dry plastic bottle and wash those used with 777 FFg when I finally get good time to clean brass, usually within a few days. After they have been through tumbler with cheap media, hard to know which were fired with 777 FFg and which with nitro.

Dutch Bill
March 18, 2008

Your observations on brass discoloration have merit.

Potassium carbonate being the main actor in this brass discoloration.

Swiss BP is formulated with 78 parts of potassium nitrate which would be typical for a European sporting type powder since back in the 19th century.

On the other end of this would be the 777 where the dinitro replaces a good bit of the potassium nitrate since the dinitro is an oxygen supplier.

The Swiss would give the highest level of potash and the 777 the least until you got into the nitrocellulose powders where no potassium nitrate would be seen and therefor no potassium carbonate (potash).

Hedley Lamarr
March 18, 2008

I have found that water & Murphy's Oil Soap works better than Simple Green for cleaning APP brass.

Granted, I have yet to shoot it in really high humidity, but that mix leaves the brass as shiny as if it was brand new.

Ranch 13
March 18, 2008

Hedley, lots of folks use Murphy's, and really swear by it. I've yet to try it, as we've always got a couple of gallons of Simple Green hangin around in MS. Shortie's cleaning supplies.

Dick Dastardly
March 18, 2008

Uh, um, let's see... Blackpowder Lefty started this thread. He didn't ask about cleaning brass. As I remember, he asked about using smokeless lubed bullets with black powder. I asked what exactly he meant by black powder. Lefty had asked "What is the main problem with using smokeless lubed bullets shooting blackpowder?"

Since then, the thread has wandered all over the place without a clear answer to Lefty's question.

Ho Lefty, if you haven't been put off by all the chatter, I'll ask again... What do you mean by blackpowder?

If you are speaking about Holy Black, that's one issue. If you are asking about pretend black powders, that's another issue. I am happy to address your question as pertains to Genuine Powder, but if you are asking about pretend black powders, I'll leave the issue to others that consume it.

Thanks for the question Lefty, I'm sorry to answer your question with another.

Please don't be put off by my rather narrow reply, I'm only trying to give you an answer that will work for your situation.

Blackpowder Lefty
March 18, 2008

I shoot strictly black powder,no subs. I loaded about 50 rounds with smokeless lube before I caught it.

My solution was to load another 50 with black powder lube consisting of bees wax, candle wax and Crisco 1/3 of each.

What I did then was alternate one smokeless one black powder lubed bullet.

Will this work?

Dick Dastardly
March 19, 2008

Yes, alternating will help, but it won't be a cure. However, after you go through that ammo you won't need to do it again. Watch your accuracy. If it starts to deteriorate, clean the barrel and continue with the bp bullets only.

Ranch 13
March 19, 2008

Quote from: Blackpowder Lefty
What I did then was alternate one smokeless one black powder lubed bullet. Will this work.

You'll get by alright doing that, you may or may not notice much difference in fouling. A lot of the fouling build up you get will depend on what "smokeless" lube you're using.

If you're shooting those in a rifle, and not in a speed timed match, you can totally eliminate any fouling worries by wiping between shots.

Lars
March 19, 2008

Quote from: Blackpowder Lefty
What I did then was alternate one smokeless one black powder lubed bullet. Will this work.

I have done that now and then at monthly CAS matches, when using up leftover, hard wax lubed bullets. Worked just fine in 20 inch barreled rifle (44-40) and revolver with Pyroxdex, which requires about same amount of BP lube as Swiss and lots less than Goex. The BP lube was almost certainly SPG. Would have doubts about performance being good enough for shooting more demanding of small groups and consistant POI.

I would like to thank you for starting a thread that has produced so many informative responses from some very diversely experienced BP shooters (both traditional BPs and modern BP replacements). One thing that keeps some of us returning to TOR is unexpected information that appears as posts "wander". Dutch Bill's routine explanations of our observations enriches us all, well, with an exception now and then.

Uriah
March 21, 2008

If you just want to use up the 50 loads that had the wrong lube applied, just load them in a SAA and smear lube over the cylinder front just like a C&B revolver. Would work fine for a match or practice.