vitamin c flashpowder

Retrieved: 12/20/2014
Last Post: 05/14/2008

xoo1246
September 15th, 2002

It doesnt need to be ball milled. A minute or two in a coffee grinder works fine. Using this method i recieve poweder that burns fastr than BP.

Marvin
September 15th, 2002

While ballmilling will produce very fine powders and intimate mixtures, its important to note that golden powder is not a mixture of its ingredients. Ascorbic acid and KNO3 are dissolved in water and then heated in an oven. When the water is driven off the ascorbic acid starts to decompose releasing more water, carbon dioxide and leaving an unspecified polymer containing very fine KNO3 crystals. This is the main reason for the use of relativly expensive complex organic acids like ascorbic. Citric/tartaric/malic are all very simple acids and are unlikley to work. Golden powders primary benifits, are the production without any milling, and the lack of water insoluable residue after ignition. Its massivly more expensive to produce than gunpowder and rather hygroscopic. You need an electric oven with good temperature control to produce it, and the mixture rises in the oven, so a large container is preferable. The chemistry suggests the product will be superior to ground mixtures of its ingredients.

nbk2000
September 15th, 2002

Where did you come up with the name Golden Powder for VitC powder? Is this an existing name for such compositions (URL of references please), or something you made up yourself?

Mine was always purplish/red, so "golden" seems rather inappropriate.

xoo1246
September 15th, 2002

I got ascorbic acid (vitamin C) from an organic health foods store for somewhere around $20 a pound. Its a white powder. I thought I might try it in HMTD because I still can't find citric acid, but I can't find hexamine either, so I might give "golden powder" a try.

CodeMason
September 17th, 2002

Well, I'm currently nursing some horrible second degree burns all across my right hand because of this stuff, and I can now testify for its fantastic burn rate, which is indeed comparable to that of good, milled black powder. Marvellously complete deflagration, bright orange WHOOSH. Very nice for powder that does not require milling of any kind (mixed KNO3, ascorbic acid, and a pich of NaHCO3, wetted, and heated on stove.) [side note - I think what is forming is sodium polyascorbates, which would then be much better reducers than simple ascorbic acid] I recommend this to all, but the next time I do it I'm going to use fucking LOW heat and wear some nice fire-retardant gloves. Luckily the gods had (sparing) mercy on my carelessness this time.

nbk2000
September 19th, 2002

I wonder if you could use a microwave instead of a conventional oven? That'd certainly expand the capacity to make it. That'd be nice since I don't have a conventional oven to use. :(

Also, anyone tried using it (VitC) for making something? I'm thinking this would be good stuff for making those exploding "ninja" smokebomb things where you have a central bag of a propellant like BP (or VitC in this case) surrounded by a larger bag of an inert powder like talcum that is dispersed in a cloud.

I've got a coffee grinder, KNO3, VitC (soon), and an idea. :)

I'm going to soak some silica gel in a CS solution from a MACE can. Let dry and grind it into a fine powder with the grinder. Mix with talcum and disperse as a screening/teargas cloud. Firstly, they can't see through it, then, if they go through it or it blows over them, they get maced. :D

CodeMason
September 22nd, 2002

can i suggest a test with a small amount, and _gradual_ increases of powder quantity. I can't think of any reason for spontaneous combustion if there was only a small amount of liquid within the mixture before starting,no metallic objects and if the time left in the 'nuker was kept to a minimum (also a dessicant in microwave would be good as otherwise the water vapour might be re-absorbed)

vir sapit qui pauca loquitur
September 22nd, 2002

I've just gone away and tried it... it works like a dream !

it takes a lot less time then the oven process, the first time i used the microwave i achived an excellent result, i just had to leave it to stand for a bit to allow the super heated water vapour to escape, (i advise that a dessicant is used as a fair amount of vapour is produced) BUT on the second try i left it in too long (as i was aiming for dry as soon as it was out of the microwave) and it started to "fizz" and pop. i was conducting this from about 12' away so i pulled the plug (extension leed plug :p )

i have only tried 1/2 measures of the recipie (53.5 gm of kno3)

so i DONT pretend to know about higher weights (i have to clean out the microwave before my room mates find out i've been trying to launch the microwave into orbit) so PLEASE FOR G(M)ODS SAKE BE CAREFUL! I dont want a crispy pyro on my conscience (hahaha,me...conscience!) and dont blame me if your microwave becomes the next sputnik

btw, i used a ceramic crucible to hold the solution, and i found that i had to use it on DEFROST mode for about 3mins 30 secs before water was gone (i have a 1.5 kw microwave freed from a 7-11)

nbk2000
September 22nd, 2002

The site describing Golden Powder says that a temperature of between 17?F to 180F is needed to melt the ingredients together.

This temperature is well within the reach of a pot of simmering hot water. A simple double boiler arrangement would seem suitable for safe mass production.

And I don't think including a dissecant in a microwave would do any good since the water would be boiled out of it as well. Though if you had an air circulator that passed the microwaves air through an exterior dissicant absorber, that would work well.

Kettch42mk.2
September 22nd, 2002

A word of caution on microwaving mixtures involving KNO3. I once tried do the same thing with KNO3/Sucrose (figured it would be faster than melting them on the stove) and it ignited almost instantly on low power. It was only about 5 grams, and it was in a crucible, but it still made an ungodly mess.

CodeMason
September 23rd, 2002

Plus microwaves pump shitloads of energy into an already combusting material (especially if it has metal present). Placing an ignited sparkler (hey, I was interested in plasma physics ) in the microwave left permanent black scars on the interior, and probably did godawful things to the magnetron as well.

inferno
October 1st, 2002

Would anyone happen to have a synthesis for ascorbic acid? All I can come up with is that it's main precursor is d-glucose, grape sugar. Ascorbic acid from a chem supplier is US$9/25g, even if a food supplier is 10x cheaper, that's still around US$18/lb, way too high to consider for mass production.

Any ideas?

EDIT - found this:

Ascorbic acid is prepared from a 1,4-lactone selected from gulono-1,4-lactone, galactono-1,4-lactone, idono-1,4-lactone and talono-1,4-lactone by a process comprising protection of the hydroxyl groups of the lactone so as to form an intermediate having a free hydroxyl group at either, but not both, the 2- or 3-position, oxidizing this free hydroxyl group to a keto group and hydrolyzing the oxidized intermediate to remove the hydroxyl-protecting groups.

Doesn't say much, but may help.

nbk2000
October 1st, 2002

VitC isn't intended for mass production is the multi-kilo amounts anyways. It's a rather specialized propellant that is superior to black powder for certain purposes. Those being ease of manufacture and use in ball and cap firearms.

But, figure like this...how much would it cost you to make BP of similar quality? Figure the cost of a ball mill, time, explosion hazard, finding proper hardwood charcoal, etc...as compared to mixing two (or three) ingredients in water and warming in the oven.

Yafmot
May 14th, 2008

I make mine in a beaker. 60/40 KNO3 & Vit-C, respectively, with just a couple of ml of water. Some people use a pinch of bicarb to keep down any acid formation, but I just use a bit of household Ammonia in place of some of the water.

Heat to boiling while stirring. As soon as the clear liquid starts turning a sort of amber-yellow, remove it from heat and pour into a shallow, disposable Aluminum pan. Put it in the oven on the lowest "bake" setting, opening the door every hour or so to introduce fresh, dry air. When the water is gone, the propellant should have an amber hue which lightens toward yellow when finely divided (hence the "Golden Powder" moniker).

Cleaning up the beaker is a snap. After the stuff dries out, just shave off a little from the sides and let it collect on the bottom. Take it outside (or don't if you like a house full of smoke) and toss a small, burning piece of Visco in it. You'll be rewarded with a big whoosh of smoke and flame (so don't stand over it). Then you just rinse out the black residue and wipe it clean with a damp paper towel.

I use the stuff in my old Colt's Dragoon replica, and it outperforms FFFFg nicely. Plus it's way less messy.

Yeah, 18 bucks a pound is a lot to pay for Vit-C, but keep in mind that it only entails 40% of the product, the rest being $4 a pound KNO3. Also, your time is worth something, and this stuff is way, WAY, WAAAY less labor intensive than BP.

A commercial version is available called "Black Mag-3." It's reprocessed and graphited for better uniformity and handling, but it's the same basic stuff.

Bert
May 14th, 2008

How do you deal with graining the propellant- I would assume that ballistic uniformity would depend on uniform grain size from shot to shot.