Found a formula for crimson powder. Has anyone any experience with it? How sensitive is it? I can get large quantities of vitamin C when the local drug store gets rid of their outdated merchdise. I need input on this stuff before I even try procuring the ingredients.

From: Mike Swisher
Date: 19 Feb 2006 11:40:29 -0800

The use of ascorbic acid as a fuel (basically substituted for sulphur) appears to arise from British investigations. During black powder comnustion, the presence of hydrogen sulphide "inhibits or slows the formation of other products and acts as a negative catalyst, slowing the speed of burning" (B.P. 715827).

To avoid H2S formation, sulphur is left out and organic acids or their salts are introduced in its place. B.P. 715827 suggests formic acid, but experimentation with ascorbic acid has been going on for perhaps 25-30 years; "golden powder" was one of the early results, and several black powder substitutes have been introduced to compete with Pyrodex based on such compositions. Joel Baechle suggested potassium benzoate could be added to certain color compositions with the effect of speeding combustion. I suspect that any salt of an organic acid, particularly if it is an aromatic compound, is a likely candidate to produce such an effect, unless there is some obvious contraindication such as interfering with color production or extreme sensitivity in the presence of the selected oxidizer.

B.P. 715829 suggests certain compounds can be added to black powder to discourage H2S formation, mentioning lead acetate and iron sulphate. I'm not sure that the effect observed here was dependent on discouraging H2S formation. Lead and iron oxides, which are by-products of the thermal decomposition of lead acetate and iron sulphate, both exert a catalytic effect on oxidizers. A little manganese dioxide or chromic oxide could do the same.

Short summaries of these patents may be found on p. 34 of Pyrotechnica VIII.

"Crimson powder" appears to combine the substitution of an organic acid for sulphur as suggested by B.P. 715827 with the catalytic effect of iron oxide (which MAY underlie the claims of B.P. 715829) - both these ideas being combined with a production technique akin to that used for the old "rock candy" saltpetre/sugar rocket propellant developed by amateur rocketry enthusiasts in the 'fifties. "Crimson powder" does NOT contain a chlorate or perchlorate, so isn't analogous to cheddites. It is a mixture of saltpetre, ascorbic acid, red iron oxide, combined with boiling water. The water is boiled off until what remains is a sort of paste that is then dried for one hour @ 150 deg. Fahr. and granulated. Here's a link:

http://www.nakka-rocketry.net/articles/Crimson_powder.pdf

I'm unaware of anything like this having been used in conventional civilian or military pyrotechnics.

From: hhc314@xxxxxxxxx
Date: 18 Feb 2006 20:01:33 -0800

Tom, searching the web prior to posting is definitely a good idea.

While essentially unknown in fireworks, crimson powder seems well established as a pyro composition employed in amateur rocketry. See for example:

http://www.thefintels.com/aer/crimsonpowder.htm

Evidently the name of the comp stems from its employment of red iron oxide, not amorphous phosphorus as I had assumed. The chemistry of the mixture is interesting, particularly in the involvement of ascorbic acid into what otherwise would seem to be a basic, low-level oxidation-reduction reaction. Being a physicist, I will leave it to a chemist to explain the role that ascorbic acid plays in the reaction.

Adding even more confusion to consideration if the reaction chemistry was this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascorbic_acid

So now it seems that analysis of the crimson mix reaction leads us to a stochiometric evaluation involving the reaction of a (benzene ring based aromatic co9mpound???) in concert with an inorganic based oxidizer (KNO3) and metalic oxide fuel.

I'll freely admit that I really don't know what is going on here, so perhaps someone familiar with reactions between organic and inorganic compounds will step in and help. (Damn, maybe we need to reanimate Tenny L. Davis for his help on this one.)

Perhaps newby's will question why I am devoting so much time on this, while temporarily typing with one finger, and the reason that I am doing so is that this mixture for "crimson flash" may, at least in my feeble mind, border on a subject that in explosives is often termed a chedite. These can be very dangerous in unsuspecting hands, because they border on a progressively burning composition suddenly becoming a high-explosive and detonating -- which event can make your work memorable, as in the tombstone sense.

This would not make a good day.

Read Davis very carefully, beginning with his definition of Cheddites on page 157, but realize that in latter chapters he recounts the high-explosive substitute employed in the later stages of WWII. These are not cheddites per se, but simple mixtures of an oxidizer with a common household organic compound...

...Timing is running short, so I'll continue this in a follow-on post...

Harry C.