Thread: Hard compacted BP

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I recently bought some 45-70 cartriges that were handloaded with BP. I also made a trade for some other brass and needed 6 extra pcs of 45-70 brass to make the deal. When I pulled the boolits from the cases I found most of the BP to be hard and seemingly compacted in the case. It will not come out unless it is scraped and dug out. I'm thinking it might of been exposed to some moisture. My question is about what to do with these cartriges... should I pull the boolits and clean out the BP or try to shoot them? If it was just a few Id pull, but there's 50 pcs loaded... Robin

montana_charlie
06-09-2010

It's common to compress black powder charges in BPCR ammunition. When it has been compressed, it is very tough to dig out of a case.

I think you can safely shoot that ammunition.

John Boy
06-09-2010

I found most of the BP to be hard and seemingly compacted in the case... or try to shoot them?

Robin, sounds like who ever loaded the cases over compressed the powder. I have always used this as a Rule of Thumb... never shoot anyone else's reloads unless you know the person and their reloading skills are unquestionable.

IF and I repeat IF... the powder column is 100% black powder, just because it is over compressed - there will be no safety issues if you shoot them.

cajun shooter
06-10-2010

I have a load that is 68 grs of 2F with a Saeco 535 bullet seated to cover the first gg. This takes a compression die to do. I was not looking one day and loaded three rejected bullets. when the bullets were pulled it took a sharp pointed tool to loosen the powder column and it was like breaking loose chunks of concrete. The other rounds fired and preformed as they should. This is as JB and MC posted and nothing to be concerned about.

SmuvBoGa
06-10-2010

H2O DON'T hurt B.P.

Please remember that black powder is NOT hurt by getting wet - cannon balls from the Civil War are found, dug up and THOUGHT to be harmless - BP when kept wet is harmless but after it dries out it is ready to go BOOM again - had a local fellow killed drilling out a cannon ball he found, it exploded shook most of the neighborhood too!

KCSO
06-10-2010

As a matter of fact the 303 British was loaded at one time with a solid chunk of B/P and the case necked down around it. I have sectioned a couple of these cases and the powder lookied just like the powder pellets for an inline.

I have fired and chronographed B/P 45-70's from 1887 to 1892 and when I pulled and re lubed the bullets the powder looked pretty solid, they still shot fine and actually hit the screens at just about military spec after over 100 years.

BUT... I don't shoot any one else's reloads. My son in law borrowed my gun and didn't heed this warning and blew up a nice M469 by shooting on top of a squib.

MT Chambers
06-10-2010

I'd be more concerned if the black powder was loose in the loaded round.

BPCR Bill
06-10-2010

Originally Posted by John Boy
IF and I repeat IF... the powder column is 100% black powder, just because it is over compressed - there will be no safety issues if you shoot them.

I concur. You just don't know if the individual made a duplex load that just may be dangerous. Pull the boolits, clean out the powder, and start fresh.

Box13
06-10-2010

The guy I got these rounds from was pretty knowledgable about reloading although I don't know the guy. When I pulled the first 6 boolits I found one case had BP that would pour out but the other 5 had solidified. It will dig out but takes a lot of work and makes me a little nervous. When I was a kid one of my friends lost a couple of fingers fooling with black powder and a pill bottle. I'm guessing he had some flash powder or scraped cap material in the mix also. Anyway I weighed the powder and it conforms to the data on the inside of the lid and is in range of the lyman listing in my lyman book. 65g of what appears to be FF averaged from 6 rounds, loaded with a dacron wad under a 405g comercial cast slug. The powder looks to be compressed by the boolit as it was seated. I think I will put one through my marlin since its a pretty strong gun. If its good Ill run the others through the sharps. Thanks for all the input so far. I've never loaded BP in a 45-70... although I've loaded lots in front loaders... Robin

montana_charlie
06-10-2010

Originally Posted by Box13
loaded with a dacron wad under a 405g comercial cast slug.

First time I've heard of a dacron wad...

waksupi
06-11-2010

If you feel you need to dismantle the compressed ones, soak them in water first, after removing the bullet.

sagacious
06-11-2010

Originally Posted by waksupi
If you feel you need to dismantle the compressed ones, soak them in water first, after removing the bullet.

That's what I'd do.

Might seem like a waste to not to shoot 'em, but I won't even shoot the reloads of my friends. Any person can make a mistake, and how well ya know 'em doesn't change that. The result of a mistake in reloading can be the sort of thing you remember for a very long time. Good luck and stay safe.

missionary5155
06-11-2010

Another option would be to remove the bullet and then pack some paper or cloth wad on top. In effect you just made a BLANK. You will end up with a good bit of fouling but water will remove that easily.

montana_charlie
06-11-2010

Originally Posted by sagacious
Might seem like a waste to not to shoot 'em, but I won't even shoot the reloads of my friends.

I won't shoot smokeless reloads assembled by others. Small errors can cause large problems.

However, you cannot stuff enough blackpowder in a 45/70 case to hurt any halfway sound rifle.

sagacious
06-11-2010

Yes, that's true about BP. I reckon one simply needs to hope that each cartridge only contains BP of the right granulation, amount, etc. I cannot muster that faith, and so treat all reloads assembled by others with equal suspicion-- just my policy.

EOD3
06-12-2010

Originally Posted by SmuvBoGa
black powder is NOT hurt by getting wet

This is advice you can take to the bank guys.

Oyeboten
06-14-2010

Last night I removed the bullet from a .45 Colt cartridge I had loaded two minutes before, with 3F black powder, and I had seated the bullet, compressing the powder well... I had not crimped the bullet yet, and, decided to not finish that round, so I pulled the bullet out.

Anyway, the powder was quite firmly like a 'solid', and took some tapping and poking for it to come out... this after having been compressed only a minute or two earlier.

NickSS
06-14-2010

Hard compressed BP normal in cartridges - in fact all of the government 45-70 ammo - was compressed in the case before the bullet was put in. I have also seen examples of ML ammo made during the Civil War that had a black powder pellet glued to the base of the bullet and then shellacked to waterproof them. These were patented bullet and were meant to inserted whole into the barrel and rammed home (I bet you thought powder pellets were new). I have seen pictures of examples of these type of cartridge for 58 ML and 36 and 44 C&B revolvers. By the way there is no way you can get enough BP in a 45-70 case that will be unsafe to shoot in any modern made rifle or even good condition antiques.

EOD3
06-14-2010

Originally Posted by NickSS
there is no way you can get enough BP in a 45-70 case that will be unsafe to shoot in any modern made rifle or even good condition antiques.

Ah yes, and the pot stirrer asks: What about 5F, yes 5F?

montana_charlie
06-14-2010

Originally Posted by Box13
Anyway I weighed the powder and it conforms to the data on the inside of the lid and is in range of the lyman listing in my Lyman book.65g of what appears to be FF averaged from 6 rounds, Seems to me that a reloader thought of as 'pretty knowledgeable', who also annotates the inside of the ammo box lid with the load particulars, is quite unlikely to be using BP 'dust' to reload cartridges.

Additionally, the o/p has physically examined the propellant, and says it looks like FF to him. Since he said that, I suspect we can assume he has an idea of what FF looks like.

Don't you think you are reaching a bit far... just to stir a pot that you didn't fill?

EOD3
06-16-2010

Originally Posted by montana_charlie
Will you go to absolutely any length to be seen as right?

Well Chuck, that's an interesting world picture. I kinda thought we were in the midst of a conversation about the properties of black powder. Now, I have no doubt Nick and Box13 are both experienced loaders with both smokeless and black powders. Having said that, when someone makes a remark that undoubtedly sounds perfectly correct to them, BUT IS DEAD WRONG, it can be pointed out with a or I guess maybe I could try a confrontational or argumentative post.

Wills Point Pete
07-08-2010

All I know is back before anyone ever heard of cartridge collecting and I was still in school there was a big renovation out in the country where I grew up. It had much to do with water, some of the local rivers were dammed up and reservoirs now irrigated semi-worthless range land, making it much more valuable. So, a lot of old line cabins came down and we kids found several hundred boxes of old ammo of quite a few different calibers.

We had also never heard of the old "if you didn't buy it yourself or load it yourself, don't shoot it" rule. Naturally, that's really a good rule, it's just in the late '50s nobody knew about it.

Some of that old stuff was really green, that we either pulled the bullets or just burned the stuff. The BP loads were all very solid. We found some very early smokeless, too. We found guns that would shoot almost all of it, and everything that wasn't "too green" on the cartridge case went bang. Well, except for the big loads that went BOOM! I weighed about 90 pounds, soaking wet, that big Sharps .50-90 made me take two or three steps back just from the recoil. I shot it again, in spite of my bloody nose.

Even the 230/28 "cavalry load" .45 Colt ammo we found was solid black powder under a cork wad. Today I laugh when I read that we can only compress BP an eighth of an inch. Truth is, you can load the old loads in modern, thicker cases, it just takes more equipment and time. And you can't compress the powder with a bullet.

Ah well, if we kids had saved all that old stuff we found tearing down all those barns and line shacks to make way for modern agriculture, I'd be dictating this to a large chested redhead secretary instead of wondering if my pension check will last to the end of the month.

cajun shooter
07-08-2010

I would have given anything to have been with you on those trips Pete. That is and know what the value of what you had.

Box13
07-19-2010

Ok, I finally had the time to go out with the 45-70 rounds that started this thing whole off. I used my EMF sharps and they worked just fine. In fact I was just going to shoot this stuff up so I'd have brass to handload with smokeless... BUT... It was nowhere near as much trouble to clean up the Sharps as I thought it would be so I think I'm going to load them back up with black again. I had almost forgotten how much fun black powder is and a much softer kick then the smokeless rounds I load up for my 1985 Marlin.