Thread: Question on black powders-brands and grease cookies

Retrieved: 12/23/2014
Last Post: 11/16/2008

I have been using Goex for several years now and got to thinking about some of these post in here... I guess I am looking for a magic powder, one with no fouling, easy to clean,etc. Which brings me to my other question on using grease cookies. I have toyed with this idea for a long time but have never tries the cookies. Guess I had heard too many bad things about them...

Perhaps all were just other peoples bad luck or lack of knowing how to use them. Has anyone here used them with any luck at all... I mean if they were used years ago, why will they not work now days?

Like I said, the magic load, with no blow tubing or wiping between shots-do you think it is possible? I know it will take longer to prepare my ammo but if the out come is positive, then it may be worth it all... How much lube is on a 500 grain slug anyway? Not enough I think or why blow tube or wipe. Yes the lube star is out there on the end of the barrel, but is it or was it enough?

I would like to hear some of your comments and ideas on this and perhaps I will go to the lab and do some testing over the next month or so and write up an article if there is enough interest in it.

fishhawk
11-12-2008

Well from my experiance with BPCG and muzzle loaders there just isn't a lube out there that will keep it clean. Many have the false idea that the lube is supposed to keep the BP guns clean and that's just not what the lube is supposed to do.

What the lube should do is keep the fouling soft from shot to shot for reloading muzzle loaders and to keep pressure levels the same from shot to shot in the BPCG.

Once the fouling starts to get hard makes more resistance for the boolit to get out the barrel. That's also why the blow tube is used to keep the fouling soft. So a lube to keep BP guns clean just ain't going to happen. steve k

Boz330
11-12-2008

Swiss BP is cleaner. The right lube can make a big difference, but I think you will have to go to a duplex load to get out of blow tubing or wiping if you want consistant accuracy. I have gotten 10 rounds on a cool day with a good lube with out serious fowling, but this was just testing, not in a match.

e15cap
11-12-2008

Swiss is the clear favorite on the silhouette line. Tried lube cookie and accuracy went to hell. Duplexing will give a cleaner barrel.

Don McDowell
11-12-2008

If you want a "magic" powder with no fouling, best to just stick to smokeless.

I'm not sure where the Swiss and Schuetzen shoot cleaner stuff comes from as my rifles don't seem to think there's any difference.

Bullet fit plays an important part in how much fouling you get along with the lube.

If you experience heavy fouling in the throat of the rifle, you're running just a tad low on pressure and need to bring the powder charges up.

If the fouling is heaviest/hard at the muzzle, your lube is crapping out, or your bullet isn't carrying enough lube. Time to either change lubes or bullet.

Lube cookies are the sort of thing you need to experiment with to see whether or not the rifle will tolerate them or not. They seem to be the type of thing that you either love em or hate em. What I have found is that lube cookies or lubed felt wads work better under paper patch bullets , than with grease grooves.

I have grown fond of Sagebrush's Alox lube. With the RCBS 82084 bullet and that lube, my CSA 75 will not loose any accuracy in a 10 shot string by not blow tubing or wiping, unless the conditions are real hot and dry, and then wiping by far does better than messing around with a blowtube.

Hip's Ax
11-12-2008

Wiping isn't that big a deal. I keep the cleaning rod handy, my wet patches in a tupperware and a squirt bottle with the moose milk nearby to remoisten when needed.

When the wind is blowing right at me I'm darned glad I wipe instead of blow tube, when the breech is opened and all that smoke come pouring out at me I can't imagine what blow tubing would be like.

Make sure you pick up the used patches before moving distances, failure to do so will invoke the wrath of the match director. Don't ask how I know.

August
11-12-2008

I always get seven with the Mathews 490 bore rider (Lyman) and SPG lube. Some days, I've gotten eight. However, if I push it to that limit, a doozie of a flyer is the next thing that happens.

You can go ten with duplexing.

Best route is to wipe (pre-saturated patch followed by dry patch) after every shot. That's what the big boys do.

Don McDowell
11-12-2008

Catkiller it depends on how far you intend to shoot. The 400ish gr bullets will hold their own out to 5-600 yds, maybe further, but when you start reaching for the long range stuff those 500+ gr bullets just plain hold up better.

montana_charlie
11-12-2008

I have been doing some gong shooting... just to burn up some ammo that was given to me.

The gong is 24 inches across, so it's an easy target... and 'group size' isn't important.

For those reasons, I have been shooting this stuff without any fouling control measures.

The bullet is the Lyman Postell, and the powder is Goex Express 2F. Beyond that, I don't know anything about the alloy used, bullet diameter, charge weight, or type of lube.

In the last session, I (and two friends) put fify-four rounds through the bore without problems.

I'm certain this shooting style wouldn't produce paper groups that I could brag about, but ringing that gong at 300 yards was 'no problemo'.

I can think of no reason to put a lube cookie under a standard grease groove bullet... unless perhaps your barrel is 34 inches (or more) long.

JeffinNZ
11-12-2008

I have never bought into the theory that lube keeps fouling soft. What it SHOULD do is create a layer on the barrel that reduces the surface tension so the fouling can not adhere so well.

Consider the surface area of the inside of your barrel. Now think about how little lube (even with a grease cookie) you have to cover that surface and the amount of fouling it has to combine with a soften. Ain't gonna happen.

Take the average diameter of a .45 cal barrel as 0.454 (.450 + 0.458 / 2) times Pi times the barrel length.

.454 x 3.14 x 30 = 42.77 square inches of surface area. Get a piece of paper that size and see how far you lube goes on that. For a few microns thick layer to prevent fouling sticking it works fine. For sufficient lube to combine with fouling to keep it soft - forget it.

NOW, I have read on a BPCR UK web site about a guy who loads a plug of gelatine and water (jello) and swears it keeps the bore WET.

Lead pot
11-12-2008

I had a bunch of Lyman postells left over at the quigley one year and I set up at the 600 yd round and just started shooting. I would guess that maybe 80% hit with 40 rounds, but I mined out lead when I cleaned.

Dale53
11-12-2008

I live in the "normally" rather humid climate of the Midwest. Duplex loads using 10% smokeless by weight (RL-7, 4759, or 4227) can be shot all day without fouling problems assuming you use a decent lube (Emmert's Home Mix or SPG, etc). I have fired 200 accurate rounds without cleaning, wiping, or blow tubing in a day with a 40/65 or 45/70.

When shooting NRA Silhouette with straight black, under normal conditions and USING A BLOW TUBE, I could shoot most of the day without wiping. However, on one particularly unseasonably dry day, my absolute limit without wild shooting was 15 shots (a match with upwards of 60 shooters and ALL of them were having serious fouling problems). That lead me to clean after each bank of 10 silhouettes in between relays for reliable shooting accuracy with Swiss black.

A good number of successful long range shooters have gone to wiping with a damp patch (single patch pushed through after each shot) with a mixture of 20/1 Water Soluble Oil soaked patches then squeezed dry between two boards in a vise. These are stored in a sealed jar until use. it is no harder to wipe than blow tubing and many think much easier. It is sure reliable, giving the same bore condition shot to shot with excellent accuracy.

JeffinNZ
11-13-2008

I agree. I use a blow tube with my .38-303 and have great success.

Gellot Wilde
11-13-2008

I've tried with the blow tube but have finally reached the conclusion that for match shooting 'wiping out' is the only serious choice.

I have had some good targets with the grease cookie under the bullet, both felt wads loaded with lube and pure lube, combined with the blow tube good results are possible just not sure of the match to match consistancy I can get using that system.

Sure you'll get guys who put in some great winning scores with just the blow tube, but for real repeatable shot to shot consistancy in all weathers you can't beat the clean barrel wiping out gives you.

Idaho Sharpshooter
11-16-2008

As an attorney friend of mine says "...I could argue either side of that case..."

I have a Shiloh LRE (45-70)that was a pretty accurate shooter with the 500gr Lyman Schmitzer, as long as I blow tubed. I sent it to Steve Rhoades to be rechambered in the 45-90 DanT chamber for paper patch. I know this is borderline sacreligious, but I hung a B&L 36X scope from my BR days, and danged if it doesn't shoot about as well as I can hold it. I wet patch once with what we call muzzleloaders call "Moose Milk" and then a dry patch. 10:1 Rota-Magic cutting oil. I have had the most consistent results using the 2 1/2" square patches wrapped around a 45 caliber cleaning brush. I keep thinking I should try "Bore Pigs", but I'm too cheap to shell out $65 for 15 or $40 to make two dozen.

Bear Claw
11-16-2008

Rich, sounds like we have learned the same lesson, I blow tube after each shot on one trip to the range and the next trip I wipe the bore only (no blow tube) I get better results from wiping, as to bore pigs, last year I didn't Evan know what they were, now I make my own...

John, about your question, I mean this in a friendly way, you are on this one unless you go smokeless.

montana_charlie
11-16-2008

Originally Posted by Idaho Sharpshooter
I have had the most consistent results using the 2 1/2" square patches wrapped around a 45 caliber cleaning brush.

I consider that to be about the most effective method for wiping, but I hate the part where you have to run around front to peel the patch off of the brush... before pulling the rod out.

Do you not screw the brush into the rod... so it just falls?