Thread: How Fast Does Black Powder Burn?
Retrieved: January 25, 2014
Last Post: June 11, 2012
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/bp_burning/bp_burning.html
Dutch Bill
June 01, 2012
Some of that is a bit of nonsense!
wayne
June 02, 2012
No wonder there can be differences in powder performance from lot to lot.
I read somewhere that black powder burns up in approx. 18 inches of barrel.
People say to lay out a white sheet in front and shoot and see the unburned powder on the sheet. Since 40% of the burned stuff stays in solid form I wonder if people think burned powder completely turns to gas so any solid stuff on the sheet is unburned?
Ranch 13
June 02, 2012
If you fire a blackpowder cartridge load in a 45-70 rifle with a 32 inch barrel, and then fire the same load in a 28 inch barrel, the 28 inch barrel will be significantly lower in velocity than the 32. With blackpowder barrel length does matter. To short and most of it is a big orange flash out the muzzle, to long and the last bit of the barrel will be crusted hard fouling.
John Boy
June 02, 2012
...well, in a 30" barrel and the new KIK, the test I did last year (50 shots & no cleaning) 1 wet cotton ball & 3 dry ones showed the bore looked like this. I say it was a nearly complete burn...
Fairshake
June 06, 2012
Bill, From all the information that I've received from you for the past 5-6 years, I will agree with your statement about the article.
It seems to me that some of his testing ends up with what I know to be false answers.
It is well known and documented that the grain size of Swiss is the most consistent in the business. That fact along will give it a much faster burn rate than lets say standard Goex which contains several different grain sizes in one grade like 2F.
I have looked at several of the powders under a microscope and not one of them approach the standard set by the Swiss brand of powder. Goex Express was very close but it appeared to have a thicker graphite coating than the Swiss which would slow it's rate of burn down just like the Goex Cartridge had.
The least powerful of the present powders was Diamondback but I mix 2F and 3F to obtain a good shotgun powder when using it.
Dutch Bill
June 07, 2012
A few years back I had been asked to look at the Diamondback powder. When the first container came into Tamaqua I was invited to attend the test shooting. A day in late fall where the daytime high was below freezing with snow squalls passing through the area. If I showed up I was required to just sit off on the sidelines and watch. I was not to say anything. They had brought a shooter up from Texas to do the testing. I would not be able to take any samples off that property to do my own shooting with it. Rather than give up a day's work to sit through that I declined the invite.
Then when the second container arrived about a year later they gave some sample cans to a local ML gunshop who quickly passed some on to me. Of course I took some apart for a close look.
After the S/A Pernambuco Powder Factory closed the machinery was sold to another party who built a new plant around the machinery about 50 k down the coast in an industrial area set up specifically to handle dangerous materials. It had its own port for shipment. When I took it apart I saw that the new plant was also using the Imbauba palm tree for charcoal wood. So the performance of this powder was about on par with the 1999 production of Elephant. Given the problems GOEX had with starting up their Minden plant and their raw material supplier problems the 1999 Elephant powder lots were an acceptable alternative to GOEX.
But by the time this Diamondback came onto the U.S. market the market had changed. The German made Schuetzen powder was being made with a commercial alder wood charcoal and gave a clean burn. Not as fast burning as I had suggested but the low fouling was a big plus. Then of course we had the Swiss true sporting powder come onto the market. Then in 2000 and 2001 GOEX changed suppliers for both the potassium nitrate and their charcoal. This resulted in a very noticeable improvement in the performance of their powders. So the old Imbuaba charcoal Elephant had been left in the dust and the new stuff did not appear to be anything of an improvement.
And it was at that point in time where failing eyesight hurt my shooting and the wife and I got into the long bicycle rides to stave off the effects of old age. At 70 we are doing rides of 50 to 60 miles a day and at least once a year do an age ride. Ride your age in miles in one day. I had cataract surgery on both eyes but still can't focus on rifle sights.
Fairshake
June 11, 2012
Our state championship was held over the Memorial Day Weekend. It was 98 on Saturday with over 80% humidity and after stage three I had to break out my portable oxygen maker to be able to continue the match.
I ended up taking Third Place in Frontier Cartridge with a clean match that had over 45KD's.
Since switching over to the KIK powder, lot 3910 of 2F, I've shot three clean matches.
My loads of 33grains of 2F in the 44WCF with my own bullet design of 200 grains made by Accurate Moulds is the ticket. No fillers other than the powder.
I mix a pound of 2F and 3F Diamondback together for my 60 grain shotgun loads. It works great with plenty of power for birds or KD's.
The owners of Back Creek Gun Store in Winchester, VA. advised me that they have a mortar for Civil War reenactment. When they first tried Diamondback in place of the normal Goex charge, the ball only went 50 yards which is half as far as the Goex charge.
This is most likely because of the charcoal used in the making of the product which you found to be inferior and on the same level as the old Elephant Brand. It does suit the close range of SASS. The $10 a pound is also a big plus.
Dutch Bill
June 11, 2012
I should have looked at the newer lots of KIK made after that which GOEX brought into the U.S. in 2000. But none was to be had around here. When J.R. sold the Maine Powder House business it limited what I could get my hands on in small amounts. I get a gut feeling that KIK did make some necessary changes to the powder to give a bit better performance.
In 1998 the top people from the GOEX plant had gone to the KIK plant in Slovenia and had to teach the plant how to make a small arms black powder suitable for the U.S. market. Prior to being "privatized" the KIK bp plant made fireworks and military BP. No real true small-arms powders. Mainly they produced fine bp for use in grenades and land mines and fireworks powders for the home market. Once the "East Bloc" thing fell apart their military business took a dive. So producing a rifle grade bp for small-arms use was something of a new field. I know they were handed a copy of my paper on what they had supplied to GOEX. I suspect that they looked it over and made the required change in glazing and density. Velocities and bore fouling were not a problem with the original KIK rifle powder imported by GOEX but the density was low and the grains were poorly polished. That hindered accuracy. The shooter had to jump through too many hoops to get good accuracy. Simply doing a better job of polishing would correct that. So I suspect that is exactly what they did in later lots.
Dutch Bill
June 11, 2012
On the subject of KIK.
Western Powder is the company now importing KIK bp into the U.S. The data on these imports is seen on the ITC Dataweb.. Proipellant powders with the import code number 3601. Neither Brazil nor Slovenia make and export smokeless powders so any 3601 data shown is only black powder. I had not looked at the Dataweb listings of 3601 imports for a little over a year but last week somebody asked me a question so I went back into their data.
I look at quantity imported and the landed duty paid value at the port of entry. The price per pound will vary a bit by what sort of packaging is in the container of powder. When black powder is packed in one-pound tin cans those cans can add 75 cents to a dollar to the basic cost of the powder. So the value of the entire contents of the container may reflect differences in how much is packaged in what sort of a container. But some price jumps can be large. For instance.
2010 May, 68,750 pounds at $3.89 per pound. Oct., 104,764 pounds at $4.02 per pound.
2011 May, 34,375 pounds at $3.74 per pound. Dec., 26,345 pounds at $5.69 per pound.
There should have been a shipment into the U.S. in late May or early June. It will be interesting to see what it cost. Any price increases of course go right through the system and when each hand it passes through increases price by a percentage profit margin the increase at the port of entry is increased out of proportion through the distribution system.
Ranch 13
June 11, 2012
KIK has been holding pretty steady around 13$ a pound in case lots delivered.
Stuff is probably as close to meeting the definition of high quality sporting powder as anything we've seen in our lifetimes.
John Boy
June 11, 2012
The data on these imports is seen on the ITC Dataweb... Propellant powders with the import code number 3601.
Bill, did you go to school to learn how to maneuver through the ITC? Every time I gimp through trying to get 3601 info... zero output. Guess I'll just have to rely on you.
John Boy
June 11, 2012
A Miracle
............. 2004 to 2011
Slovenia kilograms 44,470 15,625 16,546 10,896 0 0 78,870 27,600 -65.0%
Brazil kilograms 0 0 11,340 11,123 0 0 11,570 11,490 -0.7%
Since Powder Inc is selling the KIK Mar 2009 lot only (2010 shipment) - looks like Western Powder took all the 2011 shipment!
John Boy
June 11, 2012
Hey, I'm getting better ... Actual Dollar Values (2004 to 2011)...
Slovenia 268,335 80,262 86,313 89,134 0 0 644,249 261,266 -59.4%
The years in bold are the only KIK shipments that Powder Inc sold... 2004 (no lot code) - 2007 (no lot code) and 2010 (Mar 2009 lot)