Topic: Brain Wave ... How to Cure the Issue of Static Electricity in Powder Hoppers!

Retrieved: 12/20/2014
Last Post: 06/14/2006

...spray paint the inside of the plastic hopper with cold galvanized zinc paint!

With my Ideal No 5 that has a cast iron body... and any powder left in the hopper, rusts the heck out of the cast iron. So, I got to thinking...

Cold galvanized spray paint ought to do the trick! So I painted the innards (not the brass barrel)

Then I got to thinking... there's been this age ole discussion about plastic hoppers and using them for BP is a No No because of the static electricity issue. Hey, paint the inside of it! Why Not, it's now metal?

PS: The measure now has a new 3 coats on the innards. Wonder what excuses the legal beagles would have now?

Dick Dastardly
June 11, 2006

It's the sparks. Sparks do the bad stuff. Takes a difference in potential to make sparks. Don't matter if it's metal, plastic or cardboard. If there's enuf difference in potential, sparks will jump. So, eliminate the difference in potential.

Metal helps cuz it's a conductor. Yer a source of sparks too. So, touch the metal of yer rig before ya start handling powder. Equalize the potential and there won't be no sparks.

Driftwood Johnson
June 12, 2006

My Lyman measure has a cast iron body too. I found out the hard way that unless I take it apart and remove the rotating brass 'measuring dohickey' residual powder dust will cause rust and jam it up. It only takes me 5 minutes at the end of the session to dismantle it and wipe it down. I leave the brass parts out until the next session.

I've given up trying to explain the difference between grounding a machine and eliminating all static charges by grounding the operator too. It really doesn't matter, I don't ground my machine or myself. But I still won't put BP in a plastic hopper. Just stubborn.

Reverend P. Babcock Chase
June 12, 2006

You can experiment all you want. I don't want a live grenade on my bench. Never use Black Powder in any measure that wasn't specificallydesigned for it and so states! The really old all-metal numbers like the Ideal #5 should be OK. For the well healed, Lyman has a Black Powder version of their respected #55 which has a metal powder reservoir that replaced the usual plastic one. It's the closest thing to the old time measures I've seen (Point of order: Lyman is a client of mine) They also have a drop tube to fit it.

I was the Product Guy at Connecticut Valley Arms and then Lyman back in the 70's and let me tell you, Black & plastic don't mix well. Just for giggles look at that sign on the gas pump about pumping gas in a plastic gas "can".

Proceed at your own risk.

Reverend P. Babcock Chase
June 12, 2006

And another thing.

I forgot to mention that leaving any powder in the measure between loading sessions, is considered a bad practice. This is probably more true with (if you'll pardon the expression) smokeless as it can be hard to identify if you've forgotten what you left in the measure. I don't know about you young whippersnappers, but I'm old enough to know better than to trust my... ah... oh yeah memory.

As mentioned, black can cause rusting, too. So, as your Sainted Mother taught you, "keep a clean machine."

I believe that those are my be my final thoughts on the subject. I will now promptly forget everything I've said and if questioned on my comments, I'll deny everything and act indignant.

Delmonico
June 12, 2006

A thought: what if I went down to the hardweare store and bought a piece of copper pipe that fits my Redding BR3, suddenly no plastic.

Cactus Cris
June 12, 2006

I only have one little question---What is the composition of the containers that real BP come in all the way from Germany? It sure ain't metal!

Reverend P. Babcock Chase
June 12, 2006

Hey Delmonico,

You could be onto something. Plus, if you polished it up, you'd have the best lookin' measure in four counties. Make a nice hood ornament when you weren't using it to throw powder.

Regarding the German Black Powder container. Have you ever tried to change a German's mind on anything? Seriously, they may have an anti-static additive in the plastic. I still don't trust it for a measure.

Delmonico
June 12, 2006

I'm doing a house rearranging, but when I get my loading room set up I'll give it a try.

I don't see any reason not to ground it also.

There are so many different types of plastic we need a good chemist here to answer it. I don't think if all plastic built up static DOT would even let them ship Nitro Powder in plastic.

Pigeonroost Slim
June 12, 2006

Its a non issue to begin with. Ain't no ordinary static spark gonna ignite the Holy Black. Jest not gonna happen. Now a suspended fine dust of any organic powder - watch out. Smoking 'bacca is a big NO NO around any gun powder and even around lead. Modify your powder measures all ya want, ground yerself to the machine so yer potential is common -- don't matter, unless it all makes ya feel warm 'n fuzzy. Now the rust -- that's problem! All the damp cold weather we've been having would rust the plastic parts! Makes good smoke though!

Abilene
June 12, 2006

Regarding painting the inside of the plastic hopper with conductive paint: Unless the conductive coating is bonded (making contact) with other metal parts of the press, it is a "floating" conductor and is subject to building up a charge. And any charges built up on the outside plastic layer will charge up the conductive inner coating. Better would be to also paint the outside of the hopper and use a strip of conductive tape over the edge which would electrically bond the inner and outer surfaces.

That is assuming that you are worried about static and BP.

Driftwood Johnson
June 14, 2006

I guess I'll have to explain it again. ALL materials that do not conduct electricity will build a static charge. That includes just about every plastic under the sun. It also includes wood, paper and glass. If it is an insulator, it is a static generator, by definition. Didn't you all watch Mr Wizard when you were kids? Don't you remember how he could make Becky's hair stand on end by rubbing a glass wand against a piece of paper? Rub 2 insulators together, or bring them into close proximity, or pull them apart, and electrons will transfer and a static charge will build. It's called a 'static' charge because it just sits there on the surface of the material and doesn't go anywhere until it can be discharged.

Plastics can have a load material, usually carbon, introduced into the resin while still in a liquid state. A load material will make the plastic 'static dissapative'. Not a conductor. It means a charge will bleed off slowly from the surface, when brought in contact with and object of opposite charge. I must have said this a half a dozen times on this board, but in case you were not paying attention, the plastic that powder containers are made from is probably static disapative. One of the characteristics of carbon loaded plastics is they are usually black. If you put powder into a container made of static disapative material, you cannot build a static charge. The plastic bottle on my MEC Jr, on the other hand, is absolutely not static dissapative. I can see the flakes of Clays dance in it everytime I wave my hand nearby. That is caused by a static charge. I got a big kick out of it the other day when somebody said he decided to get rid of the plastic and replace the bottle on his MEC with a glass bottle. All he acomplished was trading one static generator for another one.

I'm not saying that BP can or cannot be ignited by a static spark. I've seen those photos too. I ain't gonna get into that argument. But if you ground your machine, and build the whole thing out of metal (conductive material), you are still not accomplishing a dang thing unless you ground your self too. People are excellent static generators. We generate thousands of volts everytime we walk across a rug on a dry day. That little spark that you see jump from your hand to the doorknob is probably about 10,000 volts. You can't even feel a static spark untill it approaches 7000 volts. Just sitting on your duff on a stool and working the machine, just the act of moving around, you are generating static. Unless you use a static strap to put yourself at the same potential as your equipment, you are just kidding yourself by grounding the machine.

Even dipping powder out of a coffee mug with little Lee plastic dippers you are generating a small charge. But generally speaking, the charge an insulator can build is going to be relative to the mass of the piece. You ain't building much of a charge with a Lee dipper.

The photos we all like to talk about that show huge static charges not igniting BP probably demonstrate that the carbon in the charcoal of BP make it enough of a conductor that the charge goes right through the powder without enough resistance to generate very much heat. If there was enough heat,, the powder would probably ignite. When a piece of flint strikes the frizzen on a flintlock, tiny white hot glowing shards of steel are sprinlkled into the powder in the pan. Those tiny glowing shards have real mass and are very hot. We know what happens when the fall in the pan. It seems that a charge of 20,000 volts or so of static electricity turning the surounding atmosphere hot enough to glow does not have enough heat energy to ignite Black Powder.

Still, I like my Lyman all metal powder measure and I will not put BP anywhere I see flakes of Clays dancing around.

Reverend P. Babcock Chase
June 14, 2006

Thanx Driftwood. I'm new to the Open Range so I guess I missed some of your earlier monographs on the subject. I must say that you most recent effort has clearly and concisely covered this whole static deal. All of which leads me to agree with you (and my earlier statements) that there's no reason to risk using a measure that isn't intended for Black.

On the other hand, I'm dying to see that polished "copper hopper" that was discussed. It should look real sweet and If the rest of the measure is painted a nice black, it should look kind of "old timey."

Dutch Bill
June 14, 2006

Groan... Here we go again!

As far as I know, the plastic bottles used to package bp in Germany, Switzerland and several other countries does not contain an anti-static additive.

When BP is packaged in plastic bags in bulk boxes the plastic used to make the bags does usually have an anti-static additive. This is most likely due to disposing of the plastic bags in a proper manner rather than any danger involved in pouring the powder from such bags.

I have stored BP in regular old zip lock bags at times. When I would pour the powder from the zip lock bags back into cans I would get a coating of powder grains inside the zip lock bags. Sort of a mono-grain layer of powder inside the bags.

No in disposing of black powder packaging materials you just don't heave it into the trash heading for the local municipal waste landfill. The approved way to dispose of used bp packaging is to pile it up and burn it. The last thing you want in the burn pile is a bunch of plastic bags with a coating of powder inside them. So the anti-static additive to the plastic greatly reduces the amount of powder clinging inside these bags.

TAKAHO KID
June 14, 2006

The 25 pound bulk powder bags I get are linen sacks tied off with twine and wrapped inside a simple plastic bag. I have found lots of neat uses for the sacks - washed of course.