Topic: Always Wondered the Pass-Hold %'s of Cartridge Powder ...

Retrieved: 12/19/2014
Last Post: 05/01/2008

...so I treated myself to a set of screens and ran a can through them: Cartridge Powder LINK 404

Virgil Ray Hality
January 03, 2008

I don't understand. The numbers look funny to me. This was from the same can?

- 12 mesh

Lt. Col. J. Mark Flint
January 03, 2008

Virgil. the numbers are based upon his grading powder by only continuing with what went through the first screen. Essentially it is like stacking all the screens at different levels and pouring through all of them and then weighing what is retained on each screen. That is why the following results were obtained.

John Boy
January 03, 2008

Here's some more...

Swiss FFg (250.504)
Partial Can
20 mesh - 76.16% retained
30 mesh - 23.50% retained
Through - 0.34%
11.64oz

Schuetzen FFg (16.01.2006 ... WP-06A0007)
Partial Can - Socked
20 mesh - 91.48% retained
30 mesh - 8.52% retained
8.34oz

Schuetzen FFFg (08.06.2005 ... WP-05F0031)
20 mesh - 9.21% retained
30 mesh - 87.68% retained
40 mesh - 2.53% retained
Through - 0.58%
14.61oz

DuPont FFg (71JU04H) old '71 vintage
14 mesh - Trace retained
20 mesh - 86.94% retained
30 mesh - 12.65% retained
Through - 00.41%
14.59oz

Note the consistent 20-30 mesh percentages with the Schuetzen FFg that I 'socked' - meaning that the fines stuck in the sock.

Also, folks may want to start weighing the cans of their BP that say 16 ounces. Too many of the cans I sieved were not shipped with 16oz's of powder... and only 1 with more than a pound

John Boy
January 03, 2008

quote
Should not the 14 mesh have a % higher than the 12 mesh and the 30 mesh retain more than the 20 mesh?

Virgil... No. A can have powder granules of different sizes and some a larger/smaller than the mesh opeing. What size that won't pass through a given mesh is held. Grains that are smaller pass through to one or more screens.

The screens that I bought are 12 (largest opening) - 14 - 20 - 30 - 40, with 40 mesh having the smallest size openings.

Jayne Cobb
January 03, 2008

Thanx fer the info John Boy. No surprize on the socked powder though, I've been doing that for several years and have been very happy with the results I get even with cheap powders!

John Boy
January 04

Details such as this are not for everyone and the majority of the Dark Siders wouldn't give it a 2nd thought because there is absolutely no interest in the information, even the heavy duty BPCR shooters.

For CAS purposes, it doesn't make a row of beans to know the pass-hold ratios of various powders... the shooting distances are too short.

For BPCR - distances are long and SD's become important to maintain constant velocities. Even with excellent powder, ie such as Swiss... that little % of fines can make for variable velocities. So if one knows they are there - best to get them out of the can for a given lot of powder.

I like how Goex Cartridge performs with my recipes and now I know that every can is going to be socked to rid the can of the fines. The same for the 'ton' of Meteor powder that I also have

Redwater Kid
January 04, 2008

I'm assuming that you got some ASTM sieves for doing this. When you say for instance "30 mesh" -- is that the ASTM designation on the screen or the actual mesh size? 'Cause a No. 30 sieve is actually 28 mesh.

John Boy
January 04, 2008

Kid... US Standard sizes to ASTM E 11 standards. Got the range of screens that best represented the particle sizes of Goex - Schuetzen and Swiss.

Lt. Col. J. Mark Flint
April 15, 2008

Hey John Boy where did you get your screens?

John Boy
April 15, 2008

http://www.globalgilson.com/index.asp

Capn Henry
April 30, 2008

Thanks, John Boy for going to the trouble and expense of sieving the powders. While most folks won't care and while it may not make any real difference, it is just one more thing that is nice to know. I wonder how consistent the powders were around the turn of the century (1900). It is kind of troubling that the cans seem to be consistently short powder. In most states, when a product is sold by weight, there are strict limits on variance. At the price, it should be bloody well full too.

John Boy
April 30, 2008

Quote
While most folks won't care and while it may not make any real difference, it is just one more thing that is nice to know.

Thanks Capn - tis a true fact. For the 'rainy day' exercise, I learned a couple of items, other than just reading the outside of the can:

1. Some vendor grades need to be sifted to provide for better reloads

2. Some additional revenue is going on their P&L statements - 1 oz @ $17/pound is $1.06. Multiply that by a case purchase and that is 1.5 cans of powder.

Dutch Bill
May 01, 2008

Now you have me laughing with this thread.

One of the prblems with Elephant out of the old S/A Pernambuco Powder Factory was that the cans were usually over 1 pound. UPS would sometimes complain that the cases were 3 to 4 pounds over the stated weight. The women who packed the powder into the cans simply filled them. The idea being that if they were over a pound the customer was getting an extra.

With GOEX.

If you look at the 1974 edition of the Lyman Black Powder Handbook you will see a photo of two workers at the Moosic plant sitting on stools. There is a turntable where the cans are under funnels. The funnels being filled from a hopper. The hopper would weigh out 1 pound of powder into a funnel. As the turntable rotated the powder would drop down into the cans. The two workers would then screw on the caps by hand. I saw a lot of cases were the caps were either loose or ready to fall off with powder scattered around in the big cardboard box. And the photo gives no evidence of the two workers having used respiratory protection.

One of my sources told me that when they set up the plant at Minden they put in machinery to fill the cans. Getting away from the method used at Moosic.

My first cans of GOEX out of Minden had been vacuum packed. Once the powder went into the can they would pull a slight vacuum on the can as the machine screwed the cap on very tightly. I had to use channel locks to break the seal. Then the can would hiss as air was let into the can.

Now that started some jokes. Was it only the cans that I bought that would hiss. The guys I shot with joked about GOEX management teaching the cans to hiss at me.

So as far as I know the cans are filled and capped by machine. Usually such machinery will weigh each can of selected cans as it runs and sound an alarm to warn the operator that the weight is not correct. If you are looking at underweight cans then somebody is not doing their job as they should.

Course what I am seeing around here these days is that when an employer wants help that is fast and accurate they look for some grey-haired old white guys who were raised with a work ethic. I mean when they run you through a background check just to get a part time job doing office cleaning you know times are tough for employers.

John Boy
May 01, 2008

Quote
...The guys I shot with joked about GOEX management teaching the cans to hiss at me.

Did you have a name that into your mind?

As always - great information about the original powder. Items that folks don't know about and are part of the history of black powder. Thanks for sharing!

PS: I've never had a can of Goex Hissing Powder. Must be on someone's Good List!