Topic: BP, static electricity, deep thoughts
Retrieved: 12/12/2014
Last Post: 02/28/2006

When it comes to the BP static electricity thing with BP in a plastic powder measure, I don

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Pigeonroost Slim
February 18, 2006

Its a hoax. Bunch of bologna.

I've tried ever so hard to get static to ignite granules of BP. Calam tried too. I even used a hammer to beat it all to H377 and it still didna go poof. To quote the One and True Calamity Jane (hope I get the words jest rite): "Everything in the known Universe follows the Laws of Physics; except Common Knowldege and Old Wives' Tales."

ps: None of this dismisses you or anyone else from being responsible for your own actions. I sure as H377 ain't. None of this denial of static ingition applies to fine concentrated suspended dust in presence of oxygen.

Driftwood Johnson
February 21, 2006

Without getting into a debate about the dangers of BP and Static Electricity, there are a few fallacies at work here.

1. The plastic BP is packed in has a load material (carbon) added to the plastic formula which naturally drains away static charges. Because the powder companies understand Static electricity.

2. A closed container of powder will keep any charge on the outside of the container, away from the powder. That is part of the nature of Static Electricity. It does not follow the same rules as the stuff that runs through the wires. It is a surface charge.

So all that powder jostling around in closed containers (Faraday cages) does not build up a static charge in the first place.

The nature of Static Electricity is that when two insulating objects, like paper, wood, plastic, etc, are brought in proximity to each other, electrons will flow from one to the other. This causes that object to have a Static charge. It is Static because it is not moving. When the objects are brought in contact, electrons flow from one to the other. That is the Static charge flowing from one object to another, or to ground. Bring the two objects close together, and a spark will jump between them. The air, which is a great insulator, prevents the charge from draining until the airgap is small enough that it is broken down by the voltage of the charge. Bring the objects close enough, and you get a spark. Lighting is the exact same thing, just on a much more massive scale. Millions of volts.

Your plastic cool whip container does not have a load material added to the plastic. There is no reason to, cool whip does not explode. Since it is plastic, which is an excellent insulator, and you can bet your bottom dollar that every time you wave your hand near it you are building a static charge on it. A measurable charge with the right instruments. As a matter of fact, scrape your feet across a carpet on a dry winter day, and then touch a doorknob, and that little spark you see is probably discharging around 6000 volts. Yes, 6000. The human thresh hold of feeling a spark is around 3000 volts. It's just that the amperage is very low, so not much heat is generated.

And that's why BP can't normally be set off by Static discharges. Because the current isn't very high, and the charcoal in the powder, as well as the graphite coating, forms a pretty good conductor, allowing the charge to drain through and around the powder grains with very little resistance. Without much resistance, not much heat is generated. Even that little tiny Lee dipper is generating a Static charge. Just not a very big one. Static charges are related to the overall size of an object. Your cool whip bowl is bigger than your Lee dipper, and generates and holds a much larger charge than the little dipper.

It ain't quite as cut and dried as you think. I work in the electronics industry. Every year I am required to attend a Static Discharge class. The electronics industry looses millions of dollars every year due to latent damage to delicate miniature components. If you had seen the damage to circuits caused by Static Discharge that I've seen, you might not be quite so glib about the 'myth' of BP and Static. The damage looks like little tiny bomb craters.

True, the heat generated by Static Discharge running through BP does not seem to be enough to ignite it. But you never know. You won't catch me pouring BP into the plastic bottle on my MEC. I'll stick with that nice brass and aluminum BP measure that I bought from Lyman.

Lou Graham
February 21, 2006

Driftwood, serious question Oh Electric One:

Where's the cut off on the size of the plastic or is there a way to calculate that?

The Lee Dipper is small enough, you cheerfully dole out your charges with no worry. The Cool Whip container and the MEC powder measure are too big for comfort.

Somewhere between the dipper and the powder measure is the Goldilocks Just Right Size. Is there a formula to figure out how many square inches of plastic is safe?

Puffbuster
February 21, 2006

Found this on TOB... should be enlightening...

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/mlexperiments/sparks/sparks.html

Dick Dastardly
February 22, 2006

It's a fact. In life, the doomsayers will always win, eventually. There is no way to be absolutely safe and when something goes amiss, they'll come around and say "I told ya so". Black powder has been around even since before I was born, and that's a long time. There have been unplanned explosions, some have done damage. Some have even killed.

I have to wonder how many of those unplanned explosions can be factually attributed to static electricity. Since black powder has been around for so long and since there are so many mysterys about it, and since there are even more mysterys about static electricity, it's hard to learn about anything factual when it comes to the part played in unplanned explosions of Holy Black by static electricity.

So, since we are a modern bunch here, I'd like to hear about any unplanned explosion of black powder factually proven to having been caused by static electricity. If there are none to report, it don't mean that the stuff can't be set off that way, it only means that it's relatively rare. Just how rare then, becomes the question.

If instances of unplanned explosions of black powder caused by static electricity are so rare that they can't be found, then maybe the stuff is pretty safe to use without undue concern about blowing ones self to kingdom come?

I think that's where I'm at. I know the stuff has the POTENTIAL to blow me and my loading lab all to pieces. But I take all sensable precautions about heat sources and the like and I clean up spills and I feel pretty safe. Also, I take care not to tease the Dragon, pun intended. If the air is extremely dry and I'm gettin' static sparks from pullin' my nylon wind breaker off over a wool shirt, I don't immediately go point my pinky at a pile of pyro to see if it'll explode.

Now, probably I'll live till I die and my passing probably won't come from an unplanned explosion of black powder. That won't prove anything except that I shouldn't drink and drive while dancing and talkin' on my cell phone.

Free Grazer
February 22, 2006

I hand dip all my charges and make my cartridges on a single stage press so I don't have much of a dog in this fight. Someday maybe I'll get me one of those modern progressives and then I'll probably spend a couple extra on an aluminum powder holder.

About the factory exposions though, I can see it there as they run continuously and in huge quantities so the chance of suspended BP dust is pretty high. I can see where static electricity could detonate BP dust.

But at home where I load for an hour or two at night, once or twice a week with perhaps a pound of powder, I don't think I'm going to build up a concentrated level of BP dust. So it probably doesn't pose much risk for the average Joe sitting in his basement or garage.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

Curly McCrae
February 22, 2006

My father-in-law is a retired Pyrotechnician. He hand mixed the powder and loaded the large mortars that are used in fireworks displays. As he is 73 years old he must have known what he is doing or he wouldn't be alive. The only problem with asking him any questions is that he can't understand a word I say and I can't understand Chinese well enough to get the answer to any questions... LOL!

Driftwood Johnson
February 23, 2006

I don't think there is any way to predict the charge that any object will build. There are too many variables, including the atmospheric conditions any given day. The way it is usually done is to use a static meter. You hold the meter an inch away from the object and read the charge. Here is such a meter:

http://www.terrauniversal.com/products/ionizing/staticmeter.php

In all honesty, I don't think a cool whip container is going to give anybody a problem. I used to pour a half pound or so of powder into a coffee mug when dipping out charges, still do for my shotshells. I should measure how much static gets generated by a ceramic mug sometime. These days I have speeded up the process with the Lyman BP measure I installed on my Hornady machine. Watching Red Dot, American Select, and Clays flakes dancing around in the plastic powder container on my MEC Jr every time I passed my hand near it convinced me that sizeable static charges were being generated in there. I just felt squeamish dumping BP in there. Still do, won't do it.

As I explained before, the reason Static Discharge does not seem to ignite Black Powder is because the carbon present in the charcoal in the powder makes it a resonably good conductor, so static discharges drain directly through the powder without meeting enough resistance to raise the temperature high enough to ignite the powder.

The other thing I learned from this post, and I learned this a couple of years ago and should have remembered to keep my big mouth shut, is that the current thinking is that any concern at all about Static Discharge and Black Powder is tantamount to hysteria, and results in being shouted down. I'll remember next time.

E.R.Beaumont
February 23, 2006

I have not had a static electrical explosion from BP, however I haven't had flour explode on me either. We have proof that "dust" in the air can and will explode if the conditions are right. We loose about one grain elevator every 10 years or so, from grain dust going off.

I do not use plastic for loading BP, it is loaded with a coffee mug and an adjustable metal dipper. Now that I know that static is from insulating material I will use a metal container to dip from.

It might be a good idea to go all the way and wire them togeather and ground them both. However as was quoted to me, there is no such thing as absolutely safe, it is a matter of degree. Things that we do 100 times in a row may be fine, but is 101 going to get us?

I would imagine that while the possibility is high. the probability is low for what we do. The amount of powder and static required may be higher than we can/will generate just loading a couple of hundred rounds.

I don't think that there is excessive danger loading a little BP, I don't think there is much danger in driving to the 7-11, but I always wear my seatbelt. There are very dangerous things that we do all the time, we survive because of knowledge and skill. I think we will all be OK if we remember that BP is an explosive and treat it as such.

Lou Graham
February 23, 2006

Driftwood, I asked 'cause I know you know lots of cool stuff. A little static is harmless, too much is bad news. I'm trying to figure out where the line is so I don't cross it.

I'm into seeking information and problem-solving.

I seem to carry a lot of static (joke fodder, go ahead, fellers ) especially on cold, dry winter days. I zap the cat if I touch her. I zap myself getting into the car. Zap. Zap. Touch a door knob. Zap. I have taken to keeping that Static Guard spray in every room of the house and using it a lot. I spray before I reload, too. Maybe I should make a dryer sheet shirt to wear while reloading

Hypothetical and test of Lou's understanding:

I keep one hand on the plastic part of the MEC while I am loading -- that makes ME the "ground", right? The static heads out through me instead of staying with the hopper. (obviously that's not practical, just for illustration of the issue)

If I run over and rub my feet real fast back and forth on the carpet, then go grab the hopper, the two charges collide if we both have worked up enough energy.

So, the best solution is to keep both neutral but at least one of us has to be neutral? Is that it? Would a dryer sheet taped to the plastic measure do that?

Curly McCrae
February 23, 2006

A discharge point located close enough to the press so that you could occasionally discharge the static electricity that may have built up, might help your problem. Anything that goes to ground will do. A lamp with with a neutral(green) ground will work. Just putting a finger near the switch every now and then should discharge ya. You could go the full Monty and get the ground strap that computer repair techs wear.

Oldelm
February 23, 2006

I have some stories I could share here that may reinforce Driftwood's concerns....

This is what a friend of mine relayed to me when I asked him about my concerns about the dangers of BP and static...

Quote
just keep plastic away from your powder. Work on wooden tables or benches with no carpet under your feet.The friend I had that put his powder in a plastic lined wine bota to go out ground hoggin,... got a nasty burn on his hip when the lb. of powder ignited the leather covered-plastic lined wine bota. Big hole in the blue jeans and big burn on the hip and under the arm. Was just walking across a pasture. It took a coupla months of using the wine bota for a powder horn for the accident to happen. I warned him too. He didn't believe me either. There has to be a certain instance when all the factors are right for the static to ignite the powder. The right type of static charge? The right ground? No ground? Amount of moisture? Lack of moisture? Someone should know what actually happens and someday we may hear from that person while reading or something. Until then be safe and not sorry. Keep plastic away and carpets too? I had an accident when there was a plastic table cloth on the table and I was rubbing my stocking feet on the kitchen carpet under the table because that old farm house was cold. Blew out some windows. Knocked me over in the chair. Turned my brass powder measure and my copper Remington flask into pieces.Maybe the metal of the flask or measurer caused the ignition? Copper and brass are conductors right? Might be a fluke accident but I don't mess with powder near plastic anymore. I knew better too!

Just figured I'd pass that along since so many folks claim they never heard of an accident happen with BP and static.

I certainly will be cautious and take heed of my friend's experiences... it's just confirmation of the concerns that Driftwood has stated quite well.

Driftwood Johnson
February 24, 2006

At great personal risk for hijacking this thread, and discussing Static Electricity, here is some more information.

Lou, you are not acting as a ground when you do that, but you are equalizing the charge between you and the plastic part of the MEC. If you keep the charge equalized like that, no charge will flow between you and the plastic part, so there will be no spark. But you will continue to build a charge as you move around. The only real ground is Mother Earth herself.

In the electronics industry, the typical way to accomplish this is to have the entire workstation, and everything at it at common ground. The workstation, all the equipment, the work itself, and most important of all, the operator. This is usually accomplished by installing a static dissipative mat on the work surface, and having all work done on the mat. The mat is grounded to building ground. All work placed on the mat will be at ground. Sensitive parts are placed on the mat before being removed from static protective wrapping or containers. Any equipment the worker uses, like microscopes, soldering irons, etc will be grounded. Last, but most important of all, the worker herself is grounded to the workstation. There are lots of ways to do this, but the most common is with a wrist strap. It conducts any charges the worker builds up directly to ground. Part of the deal with ESD control is to not be dissipating charges quickly, but rather to let them drain slowly. If they drain slowly, no spark is created. ESD dissapatitive materials conduct and drain charges slowly, not quickly. A wrist strap will almost always have a resistor built into it to drain charges slowly AND to protect the operator from shock in case she touches a live wire.

If you want to know more about ESD (Electro Static Discharge) and the way the electronics industry deals with it, here is a pretty instructive resource:

http://www.gr.ssr.upm.es/~jambrina/esd/www.borg.com/%257Eeosesd/cebasics3.html

These precautions are probably way more than anyone wants to go through in the world of reloading, and it may in fact be true that delicate electronic components are more sensitive to ESD than Black Powder. In truth, I have not grounded my own workstation or my press. I really ought to borrow a static meter from work sometime and take some readings. I just get a little bit nervous when folks who have no background at all in ESD dismiss it totally out of hand.

Davey Wales
February 25, 2006

Thank you for the information Driftwood. I am happy now that I bought a new aluminum powder hopper for my 550B before I started loading BP with the plastic one.

Abilene
February 27, 2006

I was in charge of static prevention for some years at a large electronics plant, and was certified by NAARTE as an Electrostatic Discharge Control Technician. So when I got into shooting BP, I took an interest in the BP and Static issue and saved any info that I came across regarding accidents.

The following is taken from the BP loading article on my website:

"Every so often someone on the SASS Wire will ask the question, "Has anyone ever actually heard of someone setting off BP with static?" Yes, it is a good question. But just because you get no answers, does that mean that there is no potential for disaster? Not really. It just means that if it does happen, it is rare. This is where I tell you about three instances I have heard of. A CAS shooter in Arizona sent me a description a few years ago of his encounter. He was loading Pyrodex with an RCBS Rock Chucker, with a regular plastic powder measure. The humidity was very low, and he had been reloading for some time. He had a tray of cases that had been filled with powder, waiting to have a bullet seated in them. He reached to the press to remove the case that had just been charged when there was a flash. He described it as more of a flash than an explosion. The powder in the measure went off, melting the powder measure, as did the powder in the cases in the tray. Those cases shot up into the air, leaving the (fired) primers in the bottom of the tray. He had a beard which was burned, but that helped protect his face and his injuries were fortunately not serious. He isn't even exactly sure what happened, and he was there! But static would be a very big suspect, in my opinion, especially with the very dry conditions. Unfortunately, I no longer have the email I had from this pard describing the situation, so I can't swear that I have the details exactly correct, but that is close.

The second situation was posted to the SASS Wire during a static discussion, by a Dillon sales representative. He said that Dillon was aware of one static accident case, where a man was loading BP blanks. Apparently the man was compressing a newspaper wad into a charged case with a wooden dowel when it went off, seriously injuring his hand. The Dillon rep said that the accident was attributed to static buildup from the carpet. That is all I know of this particular incident.

The third occurrence was described recently on the SASS Wire. A fellow was trying to dispose of a large quantity of BP. He was pouring containers of it into a large plastic bucket (intending, I believe, to mix it with water). Static from the plastic bucket set off the powder, seriously injuring the fellow.

In one of his books, Mike Venturino said that he loaded thousands of rounds of BP with a regular powder measure with no problem, but then he decided that he might be tempting fate so he quit doing it. I'm sure that there are many folks out there doing the same. Are they tempting fate? No one can be completely sure. You can do so if you wish, or you can decide to be more conservative..."

And then in July 2005, I saved the following post to one of the CAS boards:

Oldelm
Jul 28, 2005

Well, I'm wonderin now just how much of an "ole wife's tale" that Black Powder / Plastic warning is. There's a feller, Wayne, who I respect a great deal, over on the VOY forum... http://www.voy.com/60048/

He had this to say...

Quote:
Ya the special hoppers made on the powder measures are to reduce the chance of static setting off the powder.I've seen that experiment with the electricity and don't know what the secrete is but I have a buddy that carried his lb. of powder on his hip in a plastic lined leather wine bota. Walked out in the pasture to look for ground hogs and the whole pound blew.Burnt his hip bad. Static must have built up from him walking.Never mess with blackpowder on carpets or plastic table cloths. I had a bad blow up that burnt my arms and face.Pain like hell from second degree burns that were a tiny hair from 3rd degree.Blew windows out of the house in Jan. and knocked me off the chair, set my t-shirt on fire, shrapneled my powder measure in my hands and simaltaneously blew a copper Colt flask(full of FFg)and filled the whole house with smoke. Woke me up for sure.My glasses were looking like they were sandblasted.Sitting at the table rubbing my cold feet on the carpet and didn't realize my wife put a plastic table cloth on the table. I heard a little snap and then a BIG BOOM.Powder measure in my hands and the flask on the table in front of me.I guess there are different kinds of electrical charges or something. Plastic? I look for it now whenever I get out the powder.With the powder measures it's the metal metering thing made of steel that is bad and the plastic hopper.There are measures out there made for blackpowder though.

Hey Oldelm, what do you think would happen in that "static" test you posted up if the guy didn't ground the piece of metal the white paper is sitting on?"

(end of post)

Nevertheless, it does give one something to think about, eh?

FYI, I sometimes load with plastic powder measures but I take some precautions and do not load in low humidity.

Driftwood Johnson
February 28, 2006

Abilene

Thanks for your thoughtful post. Now I don't feel quite so hysterical about static concerns. As I said before, I think it is doing the BP community a disservice to be shouting from the rooftops that accidental ignitions of BP from ESD are myths, hoaxes, and old wives tales. It requires a little bit of sober reflection.