Thread: THE OFFICIAL 44 BGM THREAD
I want to get all the info and details in one place for the 44 BGM.
This is the under 1.800" version Moleman built his Mauser on and is Legal for deer in MI (and maybe some other states?) and what will be used in AKs and ARs with a standard mag well of about 2.260".
I developed the round years back and Moleman actually made it work. Gunter from Gunco was heavily involved also. If anyone knows him I'd like to be able to contact him. The round was designed originally on Gunco and Moleman and a few others contributed back then.
I/we decided to call it the 44 BGM. As in 1Biggun-Gunter-Moleman that is what it means to me. If guys want to make it ninja-like then its BIG GIANT MAGNUM OR BIGGUN MICHIGAN LOL. I'd hate to just call it a Biggun Moleman and find out Gunter is still around. For all I know he's been shooting one for 5 years.
I'll keep the 444 BG name or what ever I decide for rounds longer than 1.800" for myself as that was my original idea for longer mag wells and bolt actions and its basically a 444 Marlin with no rim and a bit different length. (its been done before in various versions).
Moleman made the reamer and I'll let him address the specifics. Maybe he still has his drawing.
Basically you start with 30-06 brass or similar and cut it expand it and inside ream it along with forming it in .444 Marlin dies. The case uses brass with a .470 rim.
.270, .280, 8mm and many others all will likely work. 7mm might work also if you straighten a very small part of the shoulder out and might have more internal case capacity and might have thinner brass (to be discovered). .308 could be possibly used but you will need to straighten out a lot of the shoulder and neck.
I addition 6.5 Swede brass might be usable and would provide a bit bigger case head for really tight ammo and for using in chambers made deeper like the 444 BG.
I'd like to get the following down solid and sort of standardized so others can copy if they want and so the details don't get lost or confused.
1. OAL case length: Min 1.790"; Max trim 1.795"
2. Head space lengths: GO-1.795" NO-GO-1.799"
3. Dies used to form it. Standard 444 Marlin dies are used with the addition of an expander stem and a taper crimp die for use in autoloaders since you don't want to roll crimp the case into the groove as it will affect headspace.
4: Details on how its expanded with a mandrel and possibly fire formed.
It is expanded with a mandrel and possibly fire formed: The rough trimmed (left longer since they will get shorter when expanded) and annealed cases were expanded with a .429" expander to remove the majority of the taper from the case. This over expansion also lets the case get sized back down in a standard .444 Marlin sizing die to remove the majority of the hourglass shape the case will otherwise have until fired once.
5. Inside reamer sizes that are optimum and at what point is it reamed.
A standard Forster .44 case reamer was used full depth on a sized case and worked well. The reamer has a tapered start so it may be possible for certain bullets to ream only as deep as needed to help prevent bullet setback.
** this is the reamer normally used on fired unsized cases sold by Forster for there case trimmers. Forster PN #NR4275 which is .4275" and says "ream after sizing brass".
6. Throat lengths The reamer I made has .165" of freebore. Sounds like a lot, but the bullets were seated out farther so the case mouths couldn't get crimped into the cannelure and in effect increase the headspace. The crimp groove is around .065" wide and the bullet with the longest full diameter area ahead of the groove as I had was around .145" including the groove. Seating the bullets out a little farther also increases the usable case capacity as long as you can stay within the COL that works in your action.
7. Loads and pressures: I'd limit AR-15s to 35K PSI although the .450 Bushmaster is 40K, small ring Mausers and AKs to 45K PSI, but a strong action could be loaded up to 60K PSI.
8. Bullets available: Any bullets suitable for .444 Marlin are acceptable.
9. Twist rate: It is generally accepted that the heaviest bullet that will stabilize in a .444 Marlin with a 1:38" barrel is 265gr (yes, some guys have had good luck with heavier and some haven't). If you're never going to load heavier than 265gr then a 1:38" blank should work. If you plan on heavier bullets then take a look at the 1:20" blanks.
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I'd like to keep the thread pretty clean if possible until we get most of the info down.
Moleman deserves a huge amount of credit. While I made the first live round years ago he made a gun to fit it and then we refined its details, he has a working rifle. I feel this is one of the best compromises of bore, case capacity, velocity and energy given the pressure levels its working in and be able to fit a AK, AR and be possible one of the best options for MI deer hunters with there 1.800 straight wall case rule.
Other rounds like the 50 BEO and 450 Bushmaster and 458 SOCOM might have more bullet weight but they wont have the velocity this round has plenty of case capacity if loaded to higher pressures to be considered a big game round. Several are bottleneck so so they can't work in MI. In the power level Moleman Is running it in his early Mauser it's near the top medium game round already and a few 100 FPS moves it up to big game status. It's on par to a .444 Marlin at higher pressures and blows a .44 Mag out of the water at even lower pressure.
I'm considering trying it in a AR-15 and AK-47 for sure. This round was designed for the AK initially and can be loaded well past safe AR or even AK safety levels.
A 44 Mag Handi-Rifle can be rechambered. (I'd love a cheap barrel)
Anyway, I hope Moleman will fill in the blanks. He has really done some homework here.
Moleman
December 01, 2015
Here's the reamer drawing and some load variations from 40k-60K PSI.
1BIGGUN
December 01, 2015
I am more impressed by this round the more I study it.
Looking at the data you will see that a bullet double the weight of 7.62x39 is leaving the 18" barrel at about the same speed as most 16" barreled AKs in 7.62x39 but with a bullet almost double the weight and at a pressure that's not completely unsafe on a AR at 40,000 PSI.
On a AK I know 45,000 will hold up I have several guns running about that pressure or more on a.470 bolt head.
Dropping the pressure 5000 PSI from 45,000PSI to 40,000 PSI is only a loss of 71 FPS so it's really not worth the risk IMO on a AR.
The difference from the AK load at 45,000 pSI vs a bolt action load of 59,233 PSI is 14,233 PSI your going from 2507 FPS down to 2290 so a bolt gun can get you a extra 210 FPS this might be a big deal at 300 yards but at 200 and under. It's not that big of deal. IMO So you wanna hunt with a AR do ya?
A 300 BS load has 1360 pounds of energy at 2215 FPS at the muzzle the AR 44 BGM load is 2623 pounds of energy or about DOUBLE at almost exactly the same speed but slightly faster speed of 2219. yes double the punch with more speed out the muzzle.
AR fan boys here is double the punch at about the same trajectory out to 100 yards or so.
I'll have to see if we can figure out the trajectories of the 30BS and x39 VS the 44BGM.
Bottom line is its going to hit twice as hard and leave a bigger hole when it does.
Even at 35,000 PSI this is a better close range hunting round.
Oh yeah, wanna talk room clearing this will knock the wall down the enemy is behind.
So you say, screw the 300 I'm getting a 6.8 SPC because the boys on AR.com say it's the best hunting round well here is a very brief comparison.
SPC 2,460 ft/s 1,612 ft-lbf VS 444BGM AR load 2219ft/s 2663ft-lbf.
The 44 BGM has over 1000 pounds more energy. Of course its got more recoil and if you're afraid of a 30-06 better stick to the 6.8 SPC (Small Pecker Complex).
The round can be made economically compared to the other AR type big bores that you would need to be rich or have to reload for anyway. You can get new 30-06 brass anywhere that sells reloading supplies and used it is one of the easiest to get right behind .223 and .308 in rifle calibers.
The case can likely be made from 308. I or Moleman just have not tried it yet. You would have to straighten out the shoulder and neck. It might not be worth it.
Aside from the cutting, expanding and inside reaming the rest is just normal reloading. and inside reaming is not that uncommon on standard ammo, and once it's made it dosen't need to be remade for the next loadings.
While there has not been a lot of testing I suspect the brass will last a long long time if shot at lower pressure like 40,000 PSI.
A 30-06 case can handle at least 65,000 PSI in a strong gun and still be good for a 3 or 4 reloads or more. So at lower pressures were there is no shoulder to be set back and lots of case thickness It should give excellent case life especialy if its kept to maximum trim length. In a bolt action 50 rounds might last a life time for a hunter. It's not a round for the lazy or guys who just want to go to Cabelas and pay $45 and up for box of ammo and hope it's in stock. Seen any .450 BM lately? I can't find it locally Of course you will have to be mechanically inclined enough to cut a case off at 1.800" or so and have enough manual dexterity to be able to pull a press handle three times and be able to use a inside reamer or chucking reamer with out letting go of it and losing a hand or something. It involves being able to read a powder scale and the bottle the powder comes in.
Reloading is not for everyone. You should have at least a high school education and be able to read and have the skills like reading a micrometer and being able to do routine gun maintenance like clean a barrel. Reloading allows one to tune there ammo to there gun something you just can buy in most cases and when you can its expensive. There are easy ways to cut the brass if you look at how a lot of guys rig up mini chop saws for the 300BS you can see it gets pretty fast and easy. You have to be careful to not cut your hand off. I'm sure there is a way to make it over complicated by adding a bunch of stuff to hold the case and have a bunch of spring and crap holding guards in place and what not. But most guys can keep their fingers out of a mini saw.
I can cut .308 and .30-06 brass really fast in my saw, then it's just a matter of doing routine reloading type stuff like case trimming and whatnot.
Wildcats are not for everyone but consider almost every round that is not a .223 shot in a AR. Besides a 7.62x39 was likely a wildcat at some point. It's the nature of guys who hang out on build sites to invent and build their own stuff VS going to Wally World or somewere and just buy it. Making new rounds and loading them is no different. Who knows maybe in a few years someone will sell ammo for it. Considering about 70% of the calibers sold today are wildcat versions of something else that turned commercial you never know. It can't be any more stupid than necking down and shortening a 100 year old .30 Remington case and sticking a .270 bullet in it and giving it a special name like some big name gun maker did. IMO the round is very very suited for MI hunters and there is a shitload of them. I think there might be a small market for it there. VZ 58 makes a jig for trimming 300 BO and other rounds He once told me he could likely make one for the 44BGM and my 6mm BRX variant. Hes a good guy he used to build milled AK path plates and other cool stuff has been on a lot of gun build sites.
http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80842">300blktalk
It would be easy to make a version like his. Mine just uses a angle iron type shelf you slide the round down to a mark and chop.
It's not really hard. I also suspect a trimmed off .444 Marlin trim die would work just fine. Moleman uses Forster case trimmer with their inside reamer.
I think the reamer he uses is PN NR 4275 is the reamer they say to use after resizing.
The case trimmer itself is found used all over eBay often pretty cheap. It what I use it also will do the case trimming of course and If you can handle things that spin when driven by a motor you can attach a cordless screwdriver or drill. I usef a corded variable speed on mine.
There is a drill press version of the trimer also if you want to do lots of trimming or inside reaming. Here is a link two of the bullets I designed the round around even before they were on the market officially. There the same bullets used in the LeverLution ammo that Hornady sells and the 265 version is what they use in the .444 Marlin its designed for speeds that the 44 BGM performs at.
The 225 FTX is also a 44 Mag bullet but will work fine as well. These bullets give a better BC over round nose. Almost any 44 Mag bullet will work in this round.
Moleman and I had a lot of discussion on what to give the chamber for free bore and I feel his reamer is really good at allowing the most options but also maximizing the 265 grain pill. His current load is longer than a AR or AK mag well but the bullet can be set back. He is getting the most case capacity he can for a bolt action with a 1.800 case limit.
The main down side to this round IMO is the current lack of rifle style bullet choices. I'd love to see something like is shot in the 358 Win that were not almost a $1 each. The .45 cal big bores that use pistol bullets have the same problem. I don't know what it would take to make a .430 FMJ or jacketed soft point or possible swedge down a 458 bullet? The bullets that are offered will work very well on big game and there are plenty of pistol bullets form cast lead to hollow points for general shooting.
Time will tell how the flat nose stuff feeds in a autoloader.
Using this calculator anything above 1658 FPS with a 265 grain bullet is big game class. Elk and bigger than deer animals round that impact velocity. So at 2300 FPS we can shoot pretty far out and still be some what confident that this round will perform.
The FTX bullet is recommended on game at speeds of 1800 - 3000 FPS in a rifle bullet and down to 800 in a pistol bullet the 225 grain is a pistol bullet.
FTX (available only in factory loaded ammunition)
Rapid, controlled expansion with deep penetration.
Recommended muzzle velocity range: Handgun 800 to 2100 fps
Recommended muzzle velocity range: Rifle 1800 to 3000 fps.
.430 FTX bullets are available separately. By comparison a 6.8 SPC at 200 yards barely make it into the medium game class then bullet performance can be a issue.
Some loads for the 300 BO are barely medium game when leaving the barrel and the 115 grain loads are not even that.
That same 265 grain 44 BGM bullet can get clear down to 925 FS and still be in the medium (deer) game class. In other words close range suppressed is a option on deer with standard weight bullets.
We would have to get the 265 p to 2765 FPS to be considered a dangerous game round. I don't know If that even possible in my longer version.
So no hunting rhinos with the 44BGM ;(
However at the 45,000 AK pressure the 44 BGM will outrun the 450 Bushmaster in pretty much every category. That's based on 2300 FPS with 265 grain bullet. That is also exactly what a .444 Marlin will do.
Moleman
December 04, 2015
I dug out the Forster 44 reamer and it is #NR4275 which is .4275" and says "ream after sizing brass".