Thread: 44????
Retrieved: June 18, 2016
Last Post: April 27, 2015
So not to highjack the 450 Bushmaster thread.
This was one of those "what if" things while waiting for some parts to show up. I was looking for ease of making brass and something that wasn't proprietary to a maker. I wouldn't want to spend 30 minutes per case to have the AK punt it to China or dent the crap out of it. Or send a barrel to someone to cut a chamber for X2-X3 times the cost of what a reamer would be and I could cut it myself. So, a 30.06 case cut below the shoulder, some 44 mag bullets that were on hand, and you get something like this.
Thumbnail:
The case would have to be fire formed as you can see from the pic that there is a dip below the seated bullet. The lead on top of it was smashed in the loading due to not having a 44mag seating die at the time. The case has not been crimped. On the 44automag they inside neck reamed to a depth of .590 which might be needed to help keep the bullet from moving under recoil...don't know. A Lee factory crimp might keep it in place or might need a canalure in the case....don't know. A RCBS 44mag neck sizer is too big to start in the case, so an expander cone is needed.
To answer some of 1bigguns questions.
The left one is a standard 44mag, the center is the 44???, and of course a 7.62x39. I don't know why in the pic the case looks like it was cut with a hacksaw, it wasn't. The length is 1.700 inch. Don't remember why that length as you can almost get a 2 inch case by cutting a 30.06 at the shoulder. Maybe it was to use a standard die, but the 444 would be the only thing close or maybe it was close in case volume to another conversion cartridge to have a starting point for loading. Before setting a length I would want to get some 180 to 300 grain bullets to see what the OAL would be. It was just one of those lets see thing.
1biggun
03-22-2008
when I get a chance I am going to form some straigtend out 30-06 brass in my 444 marlin dies then cut it down to a length that will fit in a AK mag. I am thinking that with the taper making the OD larger the shorter the case gets ,that a .45 bullet could be used instead of a .44?? if this would work then perhaps 444 marlin dies could at least be used to do the forming. I am also thinking a .41 bullet would work good in cut down 30-06 brass. this would give better bullet weight to case capacity and a shoulder to head space on. there are several wild cats based on necked down 444 marlin brass. The .375 & .411 JDJ and the.375 EXPRESS (WATERS) are all made from necked down 444 Marlin brass. I think cut down 30-06 brass can be formed to make a rimless version of these. A shorter version that would fit a AK/AR mag would be a great round IMOA.
I got a new computer and hope to be able to post pictures soon of some prototypes im working on as well
us_dragunov
03-23-2008
I don't know if you saw but Tony Rumore (Tromix) had problems with the 10 round .410 mags feeding in his prototype .444 Marlin and is going to try a .375/.444 Marlin. I after trading an email or two with him though I think if the .444 were loaded with longer bullets than what he is using there wouldn't be a problem. That being said....the 4 round mags feed perfect. I know the .375/.444 is supposed to be more comfortable to shoot, but I still MUCH rather have a .444 than a .375/.444 so I am still pushing on that route.
1biggun
03-23-2008
The proplem is no one makes a longer/pointed bullet except the $40 a box hornady leverevultion stuff. Not trying to question tony Rumore skills but why would the bullet design affect feeding between a 10 round and a 4 round Mag?? I would suspect the 10 rounder has more upward spring pressure on the carrier and is causing excessive drag, or is pushing the bullet up a a differant angle. the sagia conversions use a barrel shroud as well to help guide the round if this dont work making a no shrouded version is going to be even tougher. I wonder if the mag being designed for a straight 410 shell instead of a taperd 444 marlin round is not part of the problem also??
Do you have a link to the discussion on tonys gun not feeding??
A 375 woul be a better round in my opinion for hunting any way and better rifle bullets avaliable. I think guys are getting stuck on the mine is better bigger than yours thing. I am starting to wish I had not bought a 44 blank but got a .375 instead
us_dragunov
03-23-2008
Yeah...I asked him to try some of the Hornady bullets and he said he did, but only in the 4 round magazines and they fed fine. He also said he loaded up some 300 gr bullets that were pretty long and they fed fine out of the 10 round mag. I'm not stuck on a bigger round....jI ust prefer one that I don't HAVE TO reload for.
Here are the links:
Tromix 444 Marlin Project Has Been Scrapped. - forum.Saiga-12.com
.375 versus .444 Marlin (pic) - forum.Saiga-12.com
hcpookie
03-24-2008
That's pretty interesting! I am curious about this but like I said before I'm not convinced the .44 is the best platform, because of the singular fact that bullet selection and barrel selection is rather limited.
1biggun
03-24-2008
I wonder if a custom cast bullet mold could be made to make a bullet that was longer and more pointed. not sure the tip would hold up in feeding I cant get those links to open up for reason
1biggun
03-24-2008
got the link to open.It seems like the issue is that the sagia mags are not compatable with the 444 marlin. I hopefully will be able to overcome these proplems with a custom mag in my rimless version. I am really starting to wish I had started with a .375 first. the 444 marlin is shorter than a 308 so maybe it is doable. I want at least a 5rounder for hunting as this is the whole point of the build for me. I do admire the fact that Tony will not sell a gun unless it is 100% reliable. since it isnt with a Sagia mag he wont sell it. I have no doubt that a custom mag could be made to make the sagia conversion to work on a custom build. Gunter I still like the Idea of a AK Mag length .44 0r .45 or .458 round sorry to high jack this thread. maybe it can be moved to my 444 marlin thread????
Gunter
03-24-2008
Your not highjacking....just more to think about. Good info all.
The 44 bullet was just what I had on hand. I don't know how much the taper would be with a 45 bullet. I don't have access to the thickness of the case right now, but when back I'll check and see what the taper would be. There are longer more pointed lead bullets up to 500 grains if I remember right. There are some 300 grain jacketed that are pretty pointed. I'll need to probably get a 223 mag and figure out a crimp die to see if it would work.
hcpookie
03-24-2008
Originally Posted by 1biggun
It seems like the issue is that the sagia mags are not compatable with the 444
marlin
Actually not true. The mag will feed up to 4. The magazine is built for a rimmed round - .410 - and not the "rimless" .444. Also, the builder didn't want to muck with magazines, so it would be more proper to say the .410 "no magazine" conversion doesn't feed as many as he wants. Not a nitpick, just trying to make a point. I suspect if you wanted to build a new follower you could get it to work. If the .444 rounds don't truly "single stack", then doing a conversion will involve a new mag.
Now to apply this to a .44 "SUPER LONG" build... the magazine would need to actually single-stack it because if not, the spring force will be consumed trying to push the rounds into the side, and not into the feed lips. A true double-stack would probably work just like VZ's .45 Win Mag if you don't mind the extra work.
1biggun
03-24-2008
HC I was referriorng to the 10 round sagia mags not working correctly with a STANDARD444 marlin in the Tromix conversion. It is obvious there is a issue with it using some factory loads or Tromic would not have shelved it.(I should and will keep my rimless project on a seperate thread )
I have no doubt that IF TROMIX wanted to modify a mag and or reciver it would be doable. I was looking at a used sagia 410 to modify thus weekend but passed. I have one 410 now but dont plan to modify it.
The 44super long would be a great round I dont know if it would be any better than the 450 bushmaster but it is possable that the 450 AR mag could be modifed to fit a AK. the firts step in my mind to building a 44 superlong would be to come up with a standard dies that will size the brass and a way to seat and crimp the bullets. the next would be a way to ream a chamber Of course a custom one could be cut for about $150. I personaly make the round longer to take the full length of a AK mag with the heavyiest bullet avaliable or usable.the beauty of this round would be the use of 30-06 brass and the avalibilty of it.
us_dragunov
03-25-2008
I am sure Tony (Tromix) could make the .444 Marlin work without too much trouble...maybe a slight modification to the magazine....like HC said a new follower...something...his issue is that he is making these for resale and doesn't want to deal with magazine work, nor does he want to deal with whiners and customer service issues when people use the 10 round magazines and start having feeding problems. I completely understand and respect that. That being said I still want one. I'll deal with my own 10 round issues....lolol
On another little note I believe SureFire Magazines is now making a 10 round for the Saiga 410...I wonder if it would work any better? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm??
1biggun
03-25-2008
I would think that if someone ironed out the bugs and came out with just a 444 marlin to saiga 410 barrel conversion kit it would sell (hint hint). The liabilty would scare the crap out of me however. I really want a 444?? in a PISTOL so a saiga conversion will not help me much. that is why I am trying the rimless thing with a standard AK kit.
are the surefire mags 2.5" or 3"???? I want some 2.5" mags for my gun I Only have 3" now
1biggun
03-25-2008
quote:
What kind of load would you start with on this? I'm not sure but
perhaps one of the .45 Win Mag loads?
I would think the 458 x 1.5 barnes would be close.
there is also a 445 super magnum on page 217 of the COTW book that describe it as a 44 mag with 3/8" added to the case.
there is also the .44 wesson on page 339 of the Handloaders manual of cartridge conversion that has a 1.63 case length that should be pretty close
also the 44-40 extra long ( can be made from cut down 444 marlin & Possably rimless with 30-06 brass) it has a 1.58" case length page 340 of the Handloaders manual of cartridge conversion this a very old round I could not find dies for it. the standard 44 -40 is also close and may also maybe doable with 30-06 brass in a rimless version it has a 1.30 case length. very close the .44??? I have been eye balling the last two for a rimless version made from 30-06 brass with standard dies.one of the above loads should be close once the case capacity is determined
Gunter
03-26-2008
Ok, back home and dug out the notes so here is the whys:
The reason I cut it at 1.700 is that is the length that the 44 Ballard Extra Long is cut at before opening it up. Yeah it's based on the .220 Swift, but should be close enough to get a safe starting load. Plus it left some OAL room for different bullets in the AK mag.
Now the rest is in "around" numbers because I was using the cheap digital calipers. Mouth rim thickness after sizing is .016. For some reason I didn't write down the OA loaded mouth size, but I think it was around .459-.460 range without a crimp. The base of the unfired Winchester 30-06 case measured .464, so no going with a bigger bullet without inside reaming. Now if you cut it a little longer the mouth rim thickness might be a hair smaller after sizing.
That is where I stopped because I was going to get a 444 die set and see if maybe it could be used as the FL die. The base should be close, but don't know what the size is at 1.700 in the die. 1biggun maybe you could measure one of the 444 cases at that distance and see if it is close to .459-460. I agree the first step is to be able to produce ammo without too much work so we don't have to spend 10 minutes looking for the case that the AK just punted into the weeds.
ETA: The 445 Super Magnum is close to this.
1biggun
03-26-2008
I dont have a actual 444 marlin round. I have the 444 marlin dies I could go cut off a O6 round an run it through a die an see what I get though I may have to fire form some how first to blow the round out first not sure. I suspect it is going to be larger than what a .430 bullet will need. if the 444 marlin is correct at 2.225" then with the taper it is going to have a significantly larger ID at 1.70
I keep seeing the base dia of the 30-06 listed at .470" in all the books but I keep coming up with .462-465 on everything I measure as well ??????? the 444 marlin is listed at .470 as well.
1biggun
03-26-2008
well this is not going to be as easiy as I thought I cut a 06 case down to 1.850 ran it through a set of 444 marlin dies. the first problem is the 30-06 taper is sharper so the marlin dies only opend up the first 3/8 or so I seated a bullet and I come up with a case mouth of .459 the case is smaller behind the bullet. this would likely fire form out and could be shot as is. the problem I see is the very little taper from the base to the the case mouth base=.465 - case mouth=459 leaves a differance of.006 between the 2 ends. I wonder how this will feed and cycle with such a slight taper? the 444 marlin specs show the case mouth at .453 not sure how this is possable with a .430 bullet. perhaps It will crimp down some but i doubt it. I really need to get some 444 brass to measure. also calibrate my calipers. I took pictures now I have to figure out how to post them????
1biggun
03-26-2008
this may? have a picture of a 44??? extra extra long BIGGUN VERSION
Gunter
03-26-2008
That sounds about right on the mouth size and slight dip under the bullet. I used a 44mag expander to open the case up pretty deep. I wonder if it might help to anneal the case first or if it would make it worse.
ETA: Never mind. I see you got the pic up.
Looks good. So would the 444 die work for the FL die? If we could make a longer expander or maybe use the 44mag.
1biggun
03-26-2008
hey it worked!!!!!!! 30-06 on the right. the over all length of the 44??? is slightly to long for a 7.62AK mag but it would seat further down to fit. It does fit in a 223 plastic mag but the lips will not hold the round in it is close however. I suspect that a steel 223 mag with a custom follower and the lips bent in would single stack nicely. my tool post has enough travel to bore in that deep I am thinking the chamber could possably be bored at a angle instead of cut with a reamer. how bad could I screw it up?? the worst is I shorten a barrel another 1.850" the bullet shown is a 265 GF jacketed flat point.
1biggun
03-26-2008
I am not sure I had my 444 dies set up right they are used hurters and the sizer and the expander appear to have to share the same adjustment rod with differant expanders. the round could be fire formed or like you said a longer expander rod could be made to open up the entire case. I am not entirely sure that the bullet is correctly and crimped. it may just be pushed in with the seater, it is seated pretty firmly it kind of looks like the bullet may have just expanded the case though. I need to find some directions for these dies. 444 marlin uses a sizer a seperate expander and a seperate seater. I also need a taperd expander to straightend out the 30 cal mouth on the 30-06 brass to do full length 444 marlin as well. I need to get a 44 mag die set for a friend any way so I can try it when I get one
hcpookie
03-26-2008
It looks like you guys are close on this! You should use the expander before using the seating die. You may need to spray some lube on it to keep it from seizing. Believe me when I say that it is a bugger to remove a die that's stuck in a case!!!
1biggun
03-26-2008
My problem is there are a bunch of differant parts there is 2 differant expanders and only one adjusting rod between the sizer and the expander. I am not sure how it all assembles or if parts are missing. I know you size then expand the mouth then seat then crimp in seperate dies on a 444 marlin. but not sure If I have the parts assembled correctly. for each step
I am thinking size it with a 444 marlin die and possably seat and crimp it with a 44mag die.
I really have my heart set on a 444 marlin rimless as I want the extra power and will be shooting it in a pistol so I want all the muzzel velocity I can get. I may find however that this 44??? (the name is starting to grow on me) will hold all the powder I can burn in a 14" barrel an a 444 marlin may be over kill. the 450 bushmaster and the 458 socom will likely bolth out perform the 44??? but If I can make it happen on 30-06 brass who cares. I can afford to shoot it.
hcpookie
03-26-2008
Whatever you guys do, you should consider ensuring the overal length will be < 2.25" so it will fit into an AR magazine, that way it will not only fit in an AR mag, but also have a wider appeal for AR wildcatters.
1biggun
03-26-2008
I agree it needs to be short enough that the hornady leverelution bulletes will work as well ,if an when they become avaliable. By the way my 444 seaterdie will NOT properly seat the bullet the part that pushes the bullet in place. it will not screw in far enough to make contact with the bullet. it will not roll crimp also it will however will hold the bullet pretty thight in the case after a couple passes I got the case mouth down to.455 I will try to find some 44mag dies to play with
hcpookie
03-26-2008
hahahaha I'm sitting in my hotel room watching MACK demo the .50 Beowulf on Future Weapons... the point of the short was to demo the Beowulf's anti- material capabilities. I must say, it was impressive. A few points - the .50 Beo uses 400 grain rounds (didn't know this). Also, emptying a full magazine of .50 Beo puts a half-pound of lead downrange!
I know my .45-70 can use 500 grain rounds (and YES I plan to load some!).
How big of rounds are available for the .44 size?
1biggun
03-26-2008
I have seen 300GR I think there are some custom stuff IN 325 in 44. I think after you shoot some 500gr 45-70,s you will be looking for some ligther loads in a hurry
Gunter
03-27-2008
LOL. I just put the ??? because I didn't know what to call it.
Speer has the Uni-Core 300gr jacketed soft points. If you go with plain lead then there are some 500gr. Most seem to be in the 240gr range.
I watched that also. Has a little more kick than a 5.56.
hcpookie
03-27-2008
Call it the .44 GUNCO SPECIAL! Why not? There is a "Guns and Ammo" round in the wildcat database...
Gunter
03-27-2008
Looking for magazines, so do you think a metal Romanian single stack 223 magazine would work? Hunting here is with a 5 round max magazine.
Gunco Special sounds good.
Or maybe the Gunco Earth Shattering High Caliber 4 Mile Range Heat Seeking Special. I think that I got most of the MSM buzz words in there. lol.
1biggun
03-27-2008
I dont have a single stack 223 mag but Im guessing it would be to narrow. I put it in a doublestack plastic bulgy Mag and except for the lips not holding the roumd in place it seemed to fit ok. sectoining a G2 308 mag would work possably but would be a lot of work.
1biggun
03-27-2008
could name it the 444 GSRSM (Gunco Super SHORT Rimless MAGNUM) drived from a short 444 marlin rimlesss
or just the 44 GM
or the 44 BBSKMA ( Beowulf Bushmaster SOCOM Kiss My Ass )
or the 430-06S would allow adding a 4 to the exsiting head stamp the S stands for short would be able to make the factory head stamp look original.
THE 44??? is a cool name to excuse me while I whip out the ole 44 question mark!
the 444 TT (444 Triple Threat)
MY main concern would be the feeding and extraction of empty brass with very little taper. head spacing off the case mouth is also a issue.
the .41 and the .375 versions of this round should not be overlooked.
This round would work very well on 223 length bolt actions very well also and you can bet If I have to shell out for a reamer there will be a savage bolt action 44??? barrel for my 223 made.
gunter
03-27-2008
lol. I like the 44 BBSKMA .
Like you said the .375 might be better as there is a wider range of bullets. The .375 Shannon and .375/38-40 Rimless would be close. Plus it would have a shoulder to headspace off of. Not a big fan of headspacing off the mouth either.
hcpookie
03-27-2008
Honestly the mag modification isn't really that hard! These would fit into a G3 mag with a little extra space. Right? Could you cut a mag short, leaving enough for tabs, then add a spine with holes that the tabs can fold in to.
Or you could do like VZ and I are doing and just buy some square tubing and use some AK mag springs.
1biggun
03-27-2008
It seems to fit the G3 mag very well just to long. I was thinking of just taking a section out in the middle doing some type of overlap and a couple tig welds. I have like a dozen from when tapco had them cheap. I had planed to mod one for my 444 marlin build as that round is shorter than a 308. this would free up some trigger guard space on that build. I think a 450 bush master or possabley a 458 socom AR mag might be workable but the cost and still having to mod it might not be worth it. the g3 would need a differant springng if it was modifed. I think a steel 223 mag with a lip mod would be the easiest not the cheapest though. I think a single stack would be the best as far as getting it to feed. I am starting to think a custom reamer might be worth the $$$$
1biggun
03-31-2008
Barrel twist will have a large factor as to what bullets this or any .44 based weapon can shoot. Is there a place you can buy taperd case expanders?? I am thinking of getting new 444 marlin dies likely RCBS so I can get bits and pieces to intechange of the same brand. that way if this round does come to fruitation It can be reloaded with currently avaliable dies and listed part numbers sort of a way to standardize it. I am sure if one could get final version built and a gun that functions correctly that custom reamers and die sets could be made that would be worth the money.
I am still thinking a .41 0r .375 version might be better. yea the .45 bushmaster,458 socom and .50 grendal are bigger but so what. they also have slower MV and kick like hell. How many people really want one other than the mines bigger than yours thing?? In reality with the limited powder capacity a .375 0r .41 or .416 bullet is going to likely have better performance and accuracy further out. the .375 has bullets up to around 300 grains and the 416 has bullets up to around 400 grain. (about he same as the .44). The the 325 grain bullet that the 416 rigby and the 416 weatherby use, would possably be a good choice for hunting. there is a 400 grain round nose solid for you guys that think you are going to go Rambo and need to shoot through solid doors and army tanks and all that. IMOA it is cool to say yea mines bigger than yours BUT how many guys actually hunt with a 460weatherby magnum??? there is a reason that 7mm to .35 cal rounds are the most popular in north america. unless I am going RINO hunting in Wisconsin soon I thing maybe a little smaller might be a lot better. If you want to give it a Macho name call it the 375 Anti SUBURBAN SUPRRESSION HOSTILE OVERLY LOUD ELEMINATOR. OR A.S.S.H.O.L.E for short. LOL
hcpookie
03-31-2008
My dad would be all over something like a .41 because that's "his" caliber... most all the performance of a .44 without the nasty aftertaste
quote:
Now I'm interested in how you would shoulder the .44 GS to a .41 - is there
enough there for a neck?
HC on page 321 of the manual of cartridge conversion there is the .41 Jurras. it is a 1.298 long necked down cut down 30-06 case. it does in fact have a neck. its what I have in mind but longer to fit in the ak mag.
on page 286 there is the .375/38-40 another cut down 06 shell it is 1.125 long
on pg 282 there is the .375 shanon same thing but 1.315 long
I think all that it would take to make this is the correct set of custom dies.
some of these would fill the same void that your 9x39 would
Gunter
04-01-2008
The .416's would be a little pricey to just go plinking with for me. $1+ a pop just for the bullet.
I haven't found a tapered expander for this. I was going to turn one on the lathe, but just don't have the time right now. I think that RCBS all uses the same thread so if one was made it might be able to be used between the 444 and 44mag die which ever one would work the best. I was going to get a 444 die, but Midway is out.
I have a metal .223 single stack on the way to see if it might be useable. In an AR mag the round just noses into the front of the mag and the last round just pops right out. Maybe someday there will be an AK 450BM magazine.
For the .375, can the std 7.62x39 be necked up? No fuss with mags and bolt face opening.
hcpookie
04-01-2008
I still think the best magazine will be a straight no-taper design. Curious to see how that 223 mag will work.
I don't think the x39 can be necked up to accomodate a .375 without using an expander die. I neced up to .358 and it is basically a straight-walled cartridge like that. Nothing to headspace from, either. So if you did, and had to ream it, you'd be getting the brass pretty thin I think.
1biggun
04-01-2008
quote:
For the .375, can the std 7.62x39 be necked up? No fuss with mags and bolt
face opening.
No 7.62x39 not big enough DIA
quote:
I still think the best magazine will be a straight no-taper design. Curious to
see how that 223 mag will work.
I have been thinking that a straight single stack mag made from tubing or bent in a break would be very doable. the round is very straight.
To be honest I think if one were to make there own mags then they might as well make the round slightly longer and forget about the AR mag length. One of the great advantages of the AK is the mag well can easly be enlarged. this sort of brings me back to my original 444 rimless marlin idea. I want something that still allows use of a standard reciver and gives good finger clearance in the trigger guard. If a 223 mag can be done easily then I will want to do one in that length as well. I do have a AR reciver sitting here that I am not sure what to do with. a AR & AK in 44???? would be cool.
I wonder if a reamer maker would cut us a deal on several reamers on a group buy?? or get one reamer and have one guy do several barrels. the head space issues are still a concern in 44 to me.
--------------------------------------------
quote:
The .416's would be a little pricey to just go plinking with for me. $1+ a pop
just for the bullet.
UH yea just started looking at that. Yikes found some for around 75 cents each (speer) also saw some at over $4.00 each(trophy bonded sledghamer solid 25 for $135)
cast lead would be doable for plinking . the .410 pistol bullets are cheaper but kind of defeats the whole idea of using rifle bullets.
the .375 still looks very doable and might be the best round all of them. the price is better, selection is good, better MV and lighter recoil. and better optimazation of limited powder capacity.
Gunter
04-01-2008
Was looking at the .41 JMP automag that you posted. That little shoulder didn't sound like much, so I drew the top of the case out and it is more than what I thought. RCBS makes a die set, forming die, taper expanding die, trim die, and neck reaming die.
If you really wanted something big you could use the 400gr .410's for the 450- 400 Nitro Express.
1biggun
04-04-2008
I really need to know if 44 mag dies can really seat and crimp it. I need to get a way to expand the 30-06 brass down to the base so I can properly full length size it in the 444 marlin dies.
hcpookie
04-05-2008
A thought - the .375 or even the .41 Mag bullets need a neck, right? OK.
Take this one step further, and open up the .06 cartridge at the neck BEFORE you cut it. Presto, you have a neck for your .375 or 41 Ragnarok and you could probably use .06 headspace gauges.
Yeah, I know it kind of takes away from the original .44 idea, but since you're thinking about varations I figure that couldn't hurt. You could still use .06 mags like a BAR mag, or possibly 8mm mags like the MG-15 mag.
1biggun
04-06-2008
If you cut at the neck were would you seat the bullet?? another alternitive for a large bore in that length would be necking up a 358 win (358win is a necked up 308) to .375.
I have some RCBS 44 mag dies coming to play with on the 44???. I think I will try to fire form the cut 06 brass in my 444 marlin dies to blow out the case then try to seat and crimp with the 44 marlin dies. Once A actual gun it built then fire forming can be done in it. I think the 06 brass can be taper expanded as well. I have been wanting to build one of those in die fire forming set ups anyway. It might be possable to just cut the 06 brass to size expand the neck the neck, seat the bullet with 44 dies then just shoot it in the built gun plinking with lead bullets. the fired brass will then be blown out. the catch 22 is you need a round that is all formed and finalized to design the chamber off of.
I am thinking a throating reamer can be used first then follwed by boring the sligtly tapered chamber in the lathe by using the tool post set at the proper angle. how ever the chamber is cut, it is going to need a very prounced step from chamber to free bore to headspace off of.
1biggun
04-06-2008
I found this while looking around. if it were rimless it would be very close to the 44??? the 445 super magnun is made with cut down 444 marlin brass. it apears that it is sweaged or turned down at the base. loads should be pretty close though.
http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt445sm.htm
Gunter
04-07-2008
Been away for a few days. The 223 single stack still is not here.
The RCBS expander for the 44magnum die is a 9/16 SAE thread, so I will have to turn a tapered one or turn a bushing to use the expander setup out of the 7.62x39. The 7.62 has two removeable expanders so it shouldn't be to hard to turn another to .426 (size of the 44mag expander).
1biggun
04-07-2008
Gunter you may want to make 2 differant ones on with a lot of taper and one that will reach all the way down almost flush to the bottom. When you expand do you have to have a die to support the case or can you just run in with the expander sticking way out????? I was looking at my adjustable reamers and it might be doable for cutting a straight wall chamber (like HC suggested some were). I was thinking it might be possable to add a pilot to the threaded part of one of these. it looks like a piloted thrating reamer can be had for around $30 my thinking is run that first then set up the adjustable reamer with the correct tapper and run that in second. it looks like the adjustiable reamer will cut a sharp edge to headspace off of. Just thinking outloud here.
1biggun
04-07-2008
quote: The 7.62 has two removeable expanders so it shouldn't be to hard to turn another to .426 (size of the 44mag expander).
you are going to want the expander bigger than .426 because 44 mag is a non taperd round. the 444 marlin is bigger at the base than 44 mag so you are going to whant a bigger expander. I think what you want to do is expand the entire cut 30-06 case straight (no taper) then run it back through the 444 marlin die to give it the taper. then run it through the 44 mag die to do the neck and seat the bullet. my prototype brass resulted in .456 at the neck and .465 at he base. I am thinking you would want a expander .009 larger than the bullet. my bullet measures .429 (on my cheap calipurs) so that should give a expander of .438. now I am assuming the brass is the same thickness all the way back to the base. it may not be and also all brass is not the same. millitary is thicker so if you are useing that then then it all goes out the window. I am using some remington for my inital set up. what I am invesiong in the finished brass is a nice straight taper from the base to the area were the bullet is seated aprox .450 back from the mouth.
hcpookie
04-08-2008
ID reaming can be tricky because you would need to ensure you don't cut into the web at the base.
You can get a neck reamer and run it down into the case to the depth you require. I'm thinking about doing a slightly different version of a neck reamer to ream the ID of the military brass like this:
1. Make a sulfur casting of the inside of the good cartridge, *or* cut it in half. Either way, I would get the actual ID measurements of the entire cartridge.
2. Either find an adjustable reamer or build my own to match the ID. The taper will ensure the web at the bottom will be preserved. The pilot could be the primer hole.
3. Chuck it in a drill press or case trimmer and trim the brass.
I think it should be that easy. The benefit of doing this is that you have the greater case capacity without sacrificing safety.
This is what I've thought up for the .06 brass I'm going to cut down to 45 Winchester Magnum.
A question - have you looked around on other wildcatting forums like the accuratereloading.com forums? Someone may have already paved the way and may have some tips/insights to help out.
Gunter
04-08-2008
Funny you should bring that up HC. I was just there last night reading a thread that was close to what this is only using a full length .06 case. They were asking about a rimless 444 Marlin like 1 biggun wants. The two main concerns were taper for feeding/extraction and headspacing off of the mouth with the pressures that it would run at. I can post a link to the thread if it's not against the rules here and you might have to login to read.
They got into using .416 bullets with a shoulder and going up to a .284 case and using a shoulder with the .429. The 450 BM has to headspace off of the mouth, so guess Hornady got it to work?
The easiest might be to just go with the .375 Shannon or the .375/38-40. .375 rifle length barrels are easy to come by and a good selection of bullets.
hcpookie
04-08-2008
I have an account over there, I'll try to check it out later.
The BM is going to be easy to headspace - the gauge itself needs to be 1.7" to ensure it is bottomed out, and you're going to set it from that. The same thing would need to be done for the 44 ?? by making sure the gauge has a distinct edge to contact the edge of the chamber. I don't really see what the trick is, because all other straight-wall cartridges like 9mm, .40 SW, .45 ACP, etc all do the same thing.
Could you blow out an .06 or 308 case to eliminate needing to cut it down? That would be quite interesting. That's what I was thinking when I said cutting at the neck and using a taper expander to open the remaining taper of the case to full size. You could fireform it too, I think. Either way, you would end up with an .06/308 case that is misisng only the neck and is enlarged to .44 caliber size. Then you'd need to find an appropriately large magazine and you're set.
1biggun
04-08-2008
Id like to see that link. I think that its ok we have been postink LINK s on every thing else. I dont think it is ok to post a COPY of another site???????
Gunter
04-08-2008
Here's the thread:
Max bore for -06 case? - Topic Powered by eve community If it is against the rules, mods please delete.
I forgot to answer one of your questions 1biggun. On the 44 magnum dies set the first die is the FL outside die and primer pin. The next die is the inside expander. The expander die has lots of room between the outside of the case and the inside of the die. So really it is just sort of self centering.
Has anyone heard of sealing problems when going over the 36,000 psi (SAAMI 44 mganum) with straight walled cases? Plus the 44 Ragnarok might need to be inside reamed to a depth like the 44 automag to keep the bullet from walking in under recoil.
hcpookie
04-08-2008
I found this nugget while reading that thread -
"Ken Howell's book Custom Cartridges lists it as the .444 Marlin Rimless (aka .425 Rimless Express.) Basically, a .30-06 basic case trimmed to 2.225" (same length as the .444) Headspaces on the mouth just like a .30 Carbine."
Interesting, no? That would eliminate a great deal of effort. ".30-06 basic" brass. I wonder if that means untapered. I know the "45 basic" brass is what .45-70 is made from, it is trimmed down to size to make .45-70. Where to find "basic" brass is the question.
Also this:
"The 10.75x57 Mannlicher was chambered in both the 1888 and the 1898 Mausers.
The 10.75x57 was the 8x57 expanded to .424 bullet diameter,it was introduced around 1900 and became obsolete within a few years.Measurements were base .468,shoulder .465,and the neck was .448.
It is believed that headspacing problems were responsible for it's being dropped from Mauser's line of chamberings.Feeding problems and the fact that it was underpowered for the game it was used on may have contributed to it becoming obsolete."
That's another option - use 8mm brass. The 8mm base is very close to a .308/.06 base and in some cases (if not all) the bolts are interchangeable. A neck of .445 should work for for a .45 build as well... slight reaming and it would be perfect.
hcpookie
04-08-2008
Originally Posted by Gunter
Has anyone heard of sealing problems when going over the 36,000 psi (SAAMI 44
mganum) with straight walled cases?
I have not. The .45-70 max loads for heavy rifles approach 40-50,000 CUP depending on whose loads you reference.
quote:
Plus the 44 Ragnarok might need to be inside reamed to a depth like the 44
automag to keep the bullet from walking in under recoil.
Crimping is another solution to ensure no bullet walking. I would like this more than reaming because I'd be concerned about long-term brass flow, and the possible need for additional future reaming if the case were to expand after repeated firings. But maybe I'm being too analytical about it?
Gunter
04-08-2008
Now to blow our minds a little more.... how about a .243 WSSM necked up and rebated rim?
I think that the one in the pic is a 45 ACP bullet. That would give us a shoulder. Wonder how the chamber wall thickness would hold up in an AK sized barrel?
1biggun
04-08-2008
Has anyone heard of sealing problems when going over say 20-25,000 psi with straight walled cases? Plus the 44 Ragnarok might need to be inside reamed to a depth like the 44 automag to keep the bullet from walking in under recoil.
I cant see why this would be a problem! The 44??? will be nothing more than a 444 marlin but shorter with no rim. the 444marlin is loaded to aprox 45,000 psi does not have to be inside reamed or have sealing proplems. perhaps the longer full length 06 case will have more problems due to less taper over a greater length?? the 50 beowulf is pretty straight and I dont think the 450 BM is inside reamed to keep the bullet from moving back.
I hope to design my 44??? to crimp on the groove on the 265 GR bullets that I have. My biggest concerns are getting that big flat bullet to feed into the barrel with out jaming or binding the breach ID is only .035 larger than the bore. it is going to need to go in pretty straight.
A .375 version keeps looking more atttractive to me
My 44 mag dies should be here any day. and I have a barrel blank, but that is susposed to be for the 444 rimless but I have been thinking the shorter 44 might be just as good and work on a standard reciver. plus if it is a bust I can always rechamber to the longer 444 rimless down the road. It looks like all I can turn on centers in my lathe is 19" so that is what any of my 44 builds will be with the numrich blanks will be limited to.
the 99 dollar Question is who is going to step up and be the first to buy ,build, or bore a sussceful 44??? reamer or chamber
1biggun
04-08-2008
I think the WSSM necked up and fully loaded would excede the safe threshold of the AK(what ever that is) not to mention the amount of barrel it would displace as HC pointed out. If I recall correctly the levithan series of ammo used various WSSM necked up and cut down for the mini 14,s. Of course you could down load the WSSM wild cat but then you might as well stick to cut down 30-06 brass IMOA.
I read the link about the rimless 444 posted by gunter and relized that it basicaly said the same stuff that I had been saying about the head spacing and using 444 marlin dies on 06 brass. I am starting to think a phone call to some one like Z hat might be a wise decision at this point. I feel if the 450 bushmaster will feed and headspace in a AR then the 44??? should be doable in a AR and likely a AK as basical the 44?? is just a slightly smaller ID version.
hcpookie
04-09-2008
Another thought -
You could use 7mm brass since it is not only the same rim size as .308, but it is slightly longer and would probably require no I.D. reaming when cut at the shoulder...
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd7mauser.jpg
vs. 308:
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd308winchester.jpg
The good thing is that 7mm mauser brass is relatively easy to find, and you can even find once-fired brass at several places.
1biggun
04-09-2008
I was thinking that the 30 benchrest brass might work for a .375 or .41 build necked up and still fitting in a AK mag. its pricy. but about the right length
Do you have a link to the 7mm mauser once fired brass?? I have a M98 with a shilen barrel that I need to load for.
1biggun
04-09-2008
I got my 44 mag die set today it is a 4 die set so i am going to have to figure whats up with that. I think one die is a odd ball seating die unmarked and is square at the top??? going out to cut some 06 brass up now.
hcpookie
04-09-2008
4-die sets usually include a crimping die.
1biggun
04-09-2008
this appears more like a misc die that he through in (ebay used crap)
I went out and cut some 30-06 brass to 1.850 expanded straight (as best I could with some misc die parts)1. sized it in my 444 marlin die with the original expander removed.
2. rexpanded the neck/bullet area with the 444 marlin dies. 3 seated the bullet with a 44 magnum die it didnot give much tension on the bullet so I 3. ran it through the 444 marlin seater and it seems to put a good squease on the bullet.
I ended up with 3 rounds that If I had primed and powderd would not be afraid to try to fire.
The only reason I needed the 44 mag die was that the 444 marlin seater/ the part that pushes the bullet down would not screw down far enough to fully seat the bullet. I really think this can all be done with a slightly modifed die set. Or perhaps a differant brand of 444 marlin dies that has a longer seating range. I can easly modify my seater to work and still be functional to do 444 marlin as well. A expander to straighten the brass out is a must if you want a nice taperd round. I think once I come up with chamber you could skip the expanding and just fire form the case buy shooting it.
I then went out and made one with primer and powder just to say I have the first functional 444??? biggun special or a 11x46 Gunco special or a 430x1.85" or the 444 rimless short mag or the 444 SURT well any way I got the round now I need the gun.
1biggun
04-09-2008
OH YEA IT FITS IN A STANDARD AK/AR LENGTH MAG! 2.180" LOADED LENGTH ON THIS PATICULAR ROUND. IT WILL NOT STACK CORRECTLY IN IT HOWEVER. THE 223 ROUND WORKS BETTER BUT WITH 4 ROUNDS IN IT, ITS NOT PERFECT AND THE LIPS NEED TO BE PINCHED IN SOME.
hcpookie
04-09-2008
Very cool!
You're going to need a straight mag, no doubt. You could either:
1. Adapt a .308 magazine to fit, or use one of the .308 Saiga mags out there.
or
2. Cut off the top of the AK mag and weld it to an appropriately-sized length of rectangular steel tubing.
Gunter
04-10-2008
Congrats! Looks like Midway has the 444 Marlin dies back in stock so I'll be ordering them today along with a factory crimp die. Did the standard 444 Marlin die roll the mouth of the case much? What size expander or expanders did you use to open the case up before sizing in the 444 Marlin die?
I was going to make up a dummy chamber to test feeding if K-Var would ever get the .223 magazine shipped. If we can get it to feed then we should be set. Then time for a chamber reamer.
1biggun
04-10-2008
I expanded it WAY oversize with a misc expander turned backwards. I never really measured it but it was bigger than a .45 bullet. I even got one stuck in my die and had to pound it out with a hammer. I cut a round lengthwise, and the walls do get thicker toward the bottom. so care needs to be taken not to cause damage at the base. perhaps a taperd expander that would match the brass would be doable. if you expand down about 75% down you get pretty good results. I get no roll crimp with the dies I am useing likely due to the shell case being shorter. a couple possabiltys here,1. shorten the die or2. maybe a 44 mag crimping die I am concerned that the 44 mag die will try to size the case down as the 44 mag has a smaller OD,.3. I am planing to get a Lee factory crimp die ($10) in 444 marlin and try that it might need to be shortend to work on this round. the factory crimp die works by puttind a series of littlr demples at the neck. I think this would be better than a roll crimp for head spacing issues and also does not require a groove.
I am still very concerned with feeding and extraction of this round. I converted the case demensions of the 450 bushmaster specs that HC posted to inches. I found that the 450 bushmaster tapers down .022" from base to mouth. My round only has .009" less than half. this means that the bushmaster has a .013 more clearance when entering the breach. the tromix 444 marlin has a shrouded barrel to aid feeding the same as the .410 SG so non of that build applies here. I am expecting to have to champer the breach considerably (not sure how much case/base can be left unsuported?) and a lot of feed ramp and or mag work to get this thing to feed. to get them to fit in a AK mag. IF the Hornady bullets were avaliable this would likely be easier. The hornady bullets might require a shorter case I left some room with this case length for a longer bullet but not a lot. I want to build a bolt gun as well if I buy a reamer so even if I cant get this to work on a ak the reamer will still be of use. I am still looking for a way to do this nearly straight chamber with out a $150 reamer.
1biggun
04-10-2008
quote:
I was going to make up a dummy chamber to test feeding.
Thats not a half bad idea. just drill a hole in some round stock or a old yugo barrel this would save the risk of messing up a good barrel an chamber when working the bugs out.
I wonder If a reamer manufactuer would cut a better deal on several reamers at once???
hcpookie
04-10-2008
For the crimp, try this:
1. seat a bullet to the proper length 2. adjust the bullet seater way out 3. screw the die down closer to the base until the crimp is formed 4. screw the bullet seater down to the bullet
This should give you what you need. Too much crimp is usually bad, so don't make that mistake. Some of the factory 308 I have is crimped so tightly that the bullet is deformed!
About getting the mag to feed -
Consider setting back the center support if you have to. I managed to get my .308 build to work by relocating the center support back about 3/16" or so. It is now 5.1" from the front of the receiver. I had to cut the hammer some near the pivot to get it to fit without getting stuck on the spring. A small tweak, but it gives you quite a bit of extra space to play with!
1biggun
04-10-2008
Hc the problem I have is the die bottoms out on the shell holder before it forms a crimp with the 444 marlin dies. the 44 mag dies start to reform the larger case when I try to use them.
I think this thing is going to kick like hell and there is going to need to be a pretty decent crimp. not to mention that the bullet is going to have to contend with a bullet guide and the breach opening to load its self. I also want to avoid a roll crimp as it will affect headspace. I am really hopeing a lee factory crimp will be the answer in conjunction with a crimp groove in the bullet. Right now I am working with hornady 265 GR semi jacketed Flat Points as being my primary load for this build. before I finalize my case length I need to make sure the barrel twist is correct and what other bullets I may want to use, I am sure that I want to be able to shoot cheaper an lighter cast lead stuff as well but suspect that this thing is going to be finicky as far as feeding. I wonder how the bushmaster is crimped??
Gunter
04-10-2008
Yep, I was thinking a 444 Lee factory crimp also. We wouldn't want to roll crimp with case that headspaces on the mouth.
The test chamber could be a stub that has been made a slip fit into a trunnion. The barrel pin will hold it good enough for testing. What have you guys found for clearences on chamber specs? Someplace I recall .003 per side for a total of .006. That seemed a little big.
Finished the adapter for the expander holder, so next will be a couple of different sized expanders.
hcpookie
04-10-2008
.006 would not be too loose for an autoloader. That gives you .003" for case expansion. I don't know if that would be enough for a straight-walled case like this. The good thing is if it is not, you can cut it bigger with another reamer.
Look back at my chamber casting thread and you'll see my Romy "G" kit chamber casting is .006" larger at the neck than reloading specs, and .003" larger at the base:
http://www.gunco.net/forums/f244/chamber-casting-35607/ LINK 404
Im not sure of the clearance needed for a round like this. the more clearance the easyier it will feed BUT the less accurate it will be and the more the brass will get worked. I figure it would be very wise to consult a reamer manufacturer at that point. I am thinking also that IF I have a reamer made I may have it done with out a throat and ream the throat seperatly with a $30 throating reamer that way I can adjust barrels down the road to work with differant seat depths and free bore dimensions.
By the way I did not have to aneal the rounds made from 30-06 it was once fired remington brass. The 308 brass I have is military and the base is slightly bigger .469 vs .465 of the 06 brass. 308 brass could likely be used if the neck and throat were anealed and expanded straight as the neck area will be needed. just thought it was worth mentioning.
I also made one round out of some 270 brass and it was the same as the 06.
the beauty of this round is that any casing with a .465-.470 base can be made to work if it is 1.850 or longer. making it easy to find brass and a lot cheaper to shoot than the 450 BM 458 SCOM 50 BEOWULF!!!
the only down side to this round is limited bullet selection vs the .458 and a very slight powder capacity loss. From what I can tell the other round like the 458 scom are clasifed as pistol round are not that HOT to begin with so I dont expect to see much differance in MV and energy. in fact the 44 is likely to have a better MV especially with the lighter bullets it CAN use that the others cant.
hcpookie
04-10-2008
ETA - the Clymer site should have reamer specs for .444 marlin. Get those, compare to a reloading manual's cartridge diagram. There's your spec.
I just noticed the Clymer reamer site is "under construction" again
http://www.clymertool.com/design/index.html
Gunter
04-11-2008
The BBT dropped off the 223 single stack and it is a no-go. The front is way too narrow. Back looks great but no way you could get the round in there without major rework. Oh well it was worth a try.
1biggun
04-11-2008
Bummer. I am thinking of just shorting a 308. or sguare tubeing. A double stack steel 223 mag would be a better canidate. the fit in the poly mags almost like a single stack but the lips are to wide to keep it from poping out.
1biggun
04-12-2008
The round will single stack nicely in a double stack 223 mag but the width of the the lips is slightly to wide to hold the round in place.
1biggun
04-13-2008
yea I thought that might be the case wasent sure.
I was at a cabelas store today they had some 450 busmaster ammo behind the counter. I got to take a look at it I saw no crimp on it. it looked pretty much like the 44??? but smaller and a slightly rebated. nothing remarkable. also got got to check out a new rugger 10-22 pistol on sale at $299 might have to get one down the road.
1biggun
04-16-2008
44??? in a G3 mag fits good but mag is to long This would be a cheap starting point Im thinking about just cutting a section out of one and welding it back together and using a AK spring or a AR spring. capacity would be the same as the original G3 what ever that is. I am still a very concerned about getting that bullet in to the barrel
hcpookie
04-17-2008
Looks nice. I don't think I'd be too worried about the extra space, because these rounds should not tilt the follower. So long as the tip clears the front of the mag and hits the feed ramp, you'll be OK. I adapted G3 mags to work, but it takes some filing to get it just right.
Are you going to ream the inside to get more powder capacity?
Also, I used steel mags and was able to spot weld the locking lugs. Not sure if aluminum brazing would work for the alloy mags. Something to think about. ETA: G3 mags hold 20 rounds. If you need to squeeze the magazine feed lips to force the mag into a single-stack configuration for feeding purposes, then you'll lose a couple rounds in capacity.
Also, I was thinking more about the feeding of the straight-walled cartridges. I am working hard at making my 45 Win Mag feed doulbe-stack and I think I can do it with reasonable reliability. The trick is to get the rounds set back away from the locking lugs enough that there is ample room for the round to "line up" in front of the bolt before it gets to the breech. In other words, set the front of the bullets back away from the locking lugs. If you do cut the magazine down some, you could make that happen.
You could also do like VZ58 and I are doing and buy some rectangular tubing and bend it yourself. In the long run, that may be easier vs. cutting and rewelding a G3 mag. I spent something like $25 and have enough tubing for about 10 45 WM magazines.
These shorter mags will require an extension to move both the feed ramp and the forward locking lug backward by .75" or however much is required. This "shim" can be shaped to funnel the rounds more into the middle without worrying about them getting stuck on the trunion locking lugs.
Food for thought!
1biggun
04-17-2008
quote:
Are you going to ream the inside to get more powder capacity?
NO I feel the case should have enough capacity to meet the needs I have in mind for this round and I want all the wall thickness I can get for head spacing of the mouth. the 44??? is over 1/2" longer than a 44 mag with a larger case OD at the base. IT should be plenty. My goal is 1800to1900 FPS this is only a rough guess but is based on what other simular rounds do. I am expecting a case capicty of aproximently 53-55 GR,s. this should make it a very capiable deer hunting round my intended purpose, and knock down what ever doors and walls and water jugs and dirt clods the Rambo guys think they need.
quote:
Also, I used steel mags and was able to spot weld the locking lugs. Not sure
if aluminum brazing would work for the alloy mags. Something to think
about.
I have a very nice tig welder so if I want to use aluminumit will be ok. I also have about 10 of the steel mags that tapco had so cheap back when.
As far as the mags go check this out here is the 44???? in a FAL mag. If cut down they would be almost perfict. (see next post for pics)
1biggun
04-17-2008
THE 44??? IN A FAL MAG!! the bullet fits perfect in the conture of the mag and this mag seems to send the bullet more to the center. They are more money ($10-$15) not to bad but not $2 lie the G3. the FAL mag is narrower and would fit into a AK trunion a lot better. I want to be able to make this fit in a AK/AR length mag well on a standard reciver. If I cant make that happen I might as well skip it and just build the 444 rimless marlin project on a custom reciver instead.
1biggun
04-29-2008
I started working on my barrrel to day. It is going to need to be turned on centers to get the OD true to the ID it is way off center. It will have to be then chucked and profiled then have the muzzel turned and crowned and then it will need to be turned around rechucked and then ran on a steady rest to do the chamber.
I am going to try to bore the the chamber with a boring bar after I run a throating reamer in first (we will see) the worst thing that could happen is I have to make a shorter barrel. the chamber only needs aprox .005 of taper in 1.85" If I can bore a round hole straight I should be able to to it at a taper by using the steady rest feed.
I have no plans for a front site as it will be scoped or a red dot I am thinking a FAL gas block to keep the od larger. I am thinking of a custom RSB like on my varmit build.
This is going to be a lot of work
Gunter
04-30-2008
Let us know how it goes and yes it's a lot of work, but you already know that from your 223 builds. I sort of got burned out on the 308. Need to get it back out and finish it.
1biggun
04-30-2008
This is going to be a lot tougher than the 223. On that build all I had to do was chuck it true on the muzzel end and run the live center into the chamber and turn the breach end to 23 mm and the rsb to around 1.00 then cut a untaperd section were the gas block went for a couple inches, in fact the 223 still has the factory bluing on the barrel. took about a hour or so. this 44 barrel needs every thing plut its like 1.25 thick im thinking a couple days and at least 3 set ups. may have to abort for awhile untill the
17-223 is done that needs to be ready in a month for praire dogs
Gunter did you get your Lee factory crimp die in 444 marlin yet?? was wondering how that worked out.
hcpookie
04-30-2008
Don't sell yourself short. I turned a 1.25" barrel blank down to an AK profile in a Saturday afternoon/evening. It won't necessarily take that long if you have a power feed. Setup and truing is, IMO, about 75%-85% of the work. Get it straight and the cutting will go MUCH MUCH easier.
Oh I almost forgot - expect to make an RPK-sized or bigger barrel, because the .44 is so much bigger. Just an FYI - I konw you already know
1biggun
04-30-2008
Ive got power feed. the problem is the bore is not true to the OD its way off. I am going to have to make a brass pilot that the barrel will fit tightly on then drive it with a dog with the other end in a live center. just to cut one ends od true to the bore ,then flip it around and put that end in the chuck, so that I am now turning the OD true to the ID . This all has to be done before any profiling can be done once profiled then each end will have to be trued and crowned or chamberd in a steady rest.
Next time I will at least find a Turned blank! That way the ID an OD are true to each other and I can just chuck it in a go.. I have a rough blank that still has forging seams in it and the bore is over a 1/6 out of center.
Im looking to have at least a 18" barrel and closer to 20" I am looking at leaving it a pretty heavy barrel likely the OD of a FAL gas bloks ID. the Tromix 444 marlin conversion uses all the Siaga 410 barrrel parts so that must be a pretty thin barrel. even though I want a pistol in this calibur I think I am going to build a rifle first. to work out the bugs on
1biggun
04-30-2008
A few pics of the blank. its 20.5" long saw cut on the muzzel end way out of center and has a profile in it and forging marks. It was $45 aprox from Numrich. Wish I had just bought a turned blank
hcpookie
04-30-2008
Do you have a 4-jaw chuck? If so, and if you can pass it through the spindle, then it should be short work, since you could actually center it.
1biggun
04-30-2008
I Have a 4 jaw an only a 4 jaw but it wont pass through the spindle on my 9" south bend. I have a 12" clausing but it is out of service for the foreseable future. the steady rest is an issue also as the out of service one is the only one that I have a rest for.
Maybe I should be fixing my equipment instead of building guns for the last 4 years. LOL
I might have to fix the clausing 12" before getting serious about this build. or find a differant barrel. this blank was purchased for my 444 rimless marlin build originaly but I was getting pretty excited about the 44?? that I decided to go with it plus it will use a standard reciver were the other will need a 308 type reciver.
hcpookie
05-01-2008
That's funny, I feel like I'm in the same boat! I need to buy a 4-jaw and just don't have the time to get around to it. The 3-jaw that came with my anemic little mini lathe just sucks.
Gunter
05-01-2008
No 1biggun, the Lee factory crimp is still on backorder from Midway.
1biggun
05-26-2008
went to a gun show yesterday and found a steel mag marked 223 10 round it is longer than a Bulgy plastic mag so it is possably a 15 round. it had a 5 round follower in it. it wont fit in my 223 varmit build that is fitted for bulgy and pro mags. Im not sure what it is . BUT it will hold a 444?? pretty well and it is steel so I can weld on it.
1biggun
07-31-2008
I havent given up on this project. I have a 44 mag barrel coming for my H&R handi rifle I plan to ream it to 44????WTF and use it for load development it is a strong action incase I get the loads wrong and a cheap way to get another gun+ it will be nice to have once I get the AK project done, things are being stalled due to lack of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. I was hoping to have it done by november for deer season not sure Im going to make it.
Gunter
07-31-2008
Cool! Just getting into the Handi thing and picked up a 30.06 barrel. Now I'll have to be on the lookout for a 44mag. Keep us posted on how it goes.
1biggun
07-31-2008
There fun n cheap to play with im going to rechamber a 223 into a 22-243 middlestead. this will be a 1-9 twist varmit slayer shoots 50 grainers at 4000 FPS APROX, barrel life will be limited but for 150 dollars its worth a try. the graybeard sight has a lot of info on these.
1biggun
09-30-2008
bump 41 cal info around page 5. the 41 jauras is close
there is to much thought put into this 444???? for it not to be built buy a few guys here it is completly doable. mine would be done If I had bought a better blank.
a 375 and a 41 version would really be a good round as well
Gunter
10-15-2008
Here's some more info on the 444 rimless. Looks like the 44??? is just a short 444 rimless.
A "Rimless" 444 Marlin... - Page 2 - Shooters Forum
Don't know what's up with the link. Go to the box at the top of the page and click DAW A "Rimless" 444 Marlin.
I gave up on finding a Handi 44 mag barrel, so a 44 mag barrel is on the way. I'll make it into another insert for testing.
hcpookie
10-15-2008
Sounds like they've done some of the ground work for you! Other than length, sounds about like the same deal. You could probably - maybe - use .444 reloading dies and run the seater down deeper to seat in the shorter cartrige. Or just cut of the bottom 1/2" or so.
Gunter
10-15-2008
That's what I was thinking on cutting the 444 dies off.
1biggun what is the mouth od on the 3 you made up?
1biggun
10-15-2008
Good link to bad his sight wont open up. its two years old.
My case mouth OD is .457 with a .4295 bullet pressed in(hornady 265GR ) Keep in mind that I have not crimped it any so it might reduce if we can find a way to crimp in the bullet like with the lee factory crimp. THIS IS WITH REMINGTON BRASS AND LIKELY WILL VARY FROM BRAND ESPECIALY MILITERY BRASS THAT IS THICKER. I was able to make my rounds with out cutting a die down. I need to get a expander for this round so can have straight consistant brass to play with.
I got to admit I feel a little bit exhonerated knowing that Im not the only crazy guy out there thinking like this. I also feel like I have done a pretty good job of thinking ahead as it seems that I have most if not all the bases coverd for the 444??? or the full length rimless 444 marlin (wich was the original plan for a AK and still a good one IMOA). He is using a reamer and a seperate throater just like I thought would be best although I still think it might be possable to cut THE CHAMBER with a boring bar set at the correct angle. I wonder if he ever thought of it as a autoloader round like we have LOL??
quote:
I gave up on finding a Handi 44 mag barrel, so a 44 mag barrel is on the way. I'll make it into another insert for testing.
your loosing me here are you building a handi rifle for testing??? or just using the barrel on a AK. I think this a good idea to build a handi from a 44 mag and if it dont work you could always open it up to a 444 marlin as long as the extractor issues can be overcome. That 44-06 he was doing sounds pretty cool as well on a bolt gun. I have a couple of handi rifles and was thinking if I bought a reamer I would do a bolt action and a Handi as well just to off set the cost of the reamer.
In need to decide on a overall length and stick with it. it sounds like it is important to keep the bullet lead short and for a specific bullet. I really wish hornady start selling or some one else would come out with a pointy bullet for this round.
YOU KNOW THAT IF 3 OR 4 GUYS POOLED THERE MONEY TOGETHER AND BOUGHT A REAMER AND THROATER(THROATER COULD ALSO LIKELY BE USED FOR THE ROUGHER) THIS WOULD BE A LOT CHEAPER TO DO FOR ALL OF US. I WOULD WANT A REAMER THAT WOULD WORK WITH BRASS MADE FROM A STANDARD RCBS OR LEE 444MARLIN DIE. IF THE DIE HAS TO BE MODIFED BY SHORTING IT SO BE IT AS LONG AS IT IS REPEATABLE AN STANDARDISED FOR OTHERS TO DUPLICATE. I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO MAKE THE OVERALL LENGTH SHORT ENOUGH THAT ANY BULLET THAT CAME ALONG IN THE FUTURE LIKE THE HORNADY LEVERLUTION SOFTTIP, WOULD STILL ALLOW IT TO BE SEATED OUT PROPERLY AND STILL FIT IN A AK/AR MAG .THEN IF THE THING ACTUALLY FEED AND FIRED THE REAMER COULD BE REPRODUCED FROM THE PRINT AS NEEDED.
I AM CERTAIN IT WILL MAKE A NICE BOLT ACTION OR SINGLE SHOT ROUND. iM A LITTLE CONCERNED ABOUT GETTING A ALMOST STRAIGHT ROUND INTO THE CHAMBER WITH OUT JAMING
Gunter
10-16-2008
As for the Handi, I was wanting to get a 44 mag barrel for the SB1 frame. Then work the chamber over the 44???. I just ordered one of the barrels that HC posted and am sure it will need to be sleeved for use either in the AK or as a barrel insert for the 10ga Handi barrel (do not install inserts or high power rifle barrels in standard Handi shotgun frames). I'm going to try it in the Handi first and go from there.
Yep, one of the things we need to decide on is the length of the case. I also think that it would be best to cut the chamber and throat in two different operations. I was looking at Clymer yesterday and they don't show a throater for the 44 mag. So everything might need to be special made.
Looking at the 45acp at the mouth there is only .001 clearence and .003 at the base. Like you said just switching to Mil-spec cases might result in a round not chambering. I'm going to get a 444 die set and use your steps and see if the cases come out the same as yours.
hcpookie
10-16-2008
A few thoughts - you may be able to get away with .44 mag dies, just run them in shorter. Maybe... depends on case diameter at the point where a .44 base would normally be. That, with the purchase of a .444 Marlin full-length sizing die, and you may not need to make any mods at all!
About the case length - everything needs to fit in an AR / AK mag. That dimension is the starting point as I have understood it. Exactly which AR frame is open to debate - .308 size (AR-10) or .223 size (AR-15) frame? The use of an AK frame is actually pretty easy, since you have a .308 AK to work with, and that would need only a barrel swap! That may be worth the extra cost of the rifle, because magazines are now available from several places!
Personally I think that the 1.7 size is good enough - 1.75 maybe? It assumes you'll be using .308 / .06 family brass as the parent cartridge.
Feed angles for this should not be a concern. It may need a new feed ramp, but other than that it should feed fine, unless you're using a hollow point so big it looks like a shot cup. That may be a moot issue anyway.
About the expander issue - this is exactly what I was concerned with for the .45 WinMag with the "donor" brass I'm converting. Without fireforming, it will create an hourglass-shaped case since the parent cartridge is slightly tapered, and you're enlarging slightly beyond that point.
Fireforming is the only practical way to "fix" this issue and make it a truly straight taper without building a fancy expander that is purpose-built to expand that sucker out. That said, you COULD shape the brass to the final shape using only reloading tools, ASSUMING you build yourself a "full length expander". If you do that, then the brass forming would be like this:
Cut the parent cartridge to length
Expand the parent cartridge with the "full length expander"
Full length size the brass in a suitable full-length sizing die (444 Marlin?)
Neck Ream for .44/.41 bullets > optional step, possibly not necessary, (this is done for .44 Automag so it remains to be seen if this cartridge would need it...)
Expand like normal
Seat bullet like normal
Crimp like normal
That would get you where you need, and you would not need to fireform. I am experimenting with this very thing for my .45 WinMag because I'm sitting on enough donor brass to make this worth my while. The only difference here is the "full length expander" for the .44 ? / .41 ? cartridges will be longer!
Making a full-length expander is simple - mount the expander ball (aka ram) in the lathe and cut it to shape. The normal expanders have a taper near where the top of the original cartridge sits so it flares the case... you are going to cut it back so that point is higher up on the ram, closer to the threads. Polish and you're done. I am using a .44 expander for my .45 WinMag "full length expander" experiment. I'm doing all of this because I don't know that I will be able to fireform all of my brass due to my work schedule, and I am genuinely curious if this will work. I don't see why not, except that I may need to anneal the cases first. They aren't getting expanded much, but you never can tell if you'll split them. We'll see.
1biggun
10-16-2008
quote:
A few thoughts - you may be able to get away with .44 mag dies, just run them
in shorter. Maybe... depends on case diameter at the point where a .44 base
would normally be. That, with the purchase of a .444 Marlin full-length sizing
die, and you may not need to make any mods at all!
I tried 44 dies and they hit the case way before the bullet is seated due to the taper of the larger case. so I think it is safe to rule out 44 dies except possably shortend way down and then only to crimp. I was able to make my rounds with just 444 marlin dies and some misc die parts that to be honest way over expanded the neck and would not reach far enough down to do the rest of the case. there are commercialy avaliable expadder dies that will work. all that needs to happen is get the case expanded sligtly over size 75% of the way down. resizing it in a 444 marlin die will get it back to were you want it.
quote:
Personally I think that the 1.7 size is good enough - 1.75 maybe? It assumes
you'll be using .308 / .06 family brass as the parent cartridge.
IMOA we can go longer right up to were I made mine possably just a tad shorter. there is lots of clearance in a 223 mag with a 265 bullet that was seated to the canalure. I am not positive a hornady leverlution bullet will fit but it woud be as simple as buying a box of 444 marlin or 44 mag and bulling a bullet. as far as going with heavier bullets like cast or 300 grain jacketed it will work as is also keep in mind as bullet weights go up powder must be reduced. so seating the heavier bullets in some will not really hurt an thing.
My plan is to size to make sure the hornady stuff will be doable in the future. and add just a little extra.
1.800-1.825 is what im thinking 1.800 comes out to roughly 46mm. this round could easly be called a 11 x 46????? (1.810)
I want to give this thing as much case capacity as possable so that with light bullets it will really take on the 450 bushmaster, 458 socom. 50 beowulf in the FPS/trajectory race.
here is a few picks of my round in a promag. the problemwith plastic is the mag wil need to have the lips slitly pinched in or added onto to keep the round sitting flat.
hcpookie
10-16-2008
Yeah that "over expanding" part of the expanding die is what I'm talking about - cut that point back closer to the threads so the tip of the expander can reach deeper into the cartridge to open it up deeper.
Maybe taper it based on the measurements of the case and presto your "full length expander" is done. Actually now that I think about it you'd need to do that because you would not want to expand way down at the bottom where the web is, because you'd end up getting the expander stuck in the case! That would be a bugger to remove!
1biggun
10-16-2008
Pics of 3 444???? in a pro mag 223 pro mag. note how the round tips up. also pleanty of room for a 265 grain .
as far as aover expanding that was only because I was using what I had on hand. it would have not been a issue at all with the correct mandrel. the only reasion it needs to be expanded as far down is the 308 & 30-06 have more taper
If all that was done was fulllength sizing of a cut 30-06 round it would still work fine you would just have a slight hour glass shaped round for the first firing. it still would likely shoot fine and cycle and all that. If you look cloosly at my rounds there is still some slight receding below were the bullet is seated. It would kind of be like shooting a 22-250 in a 22-250 improved chamber it will shoot fine and form the case at the same time.
personaly I will expand first as accuracy is a issue and slight case capacity varations will hurt it some.
for what its worth the 30-06 brass is easier to use because it allows you to cut below the neck. 308 would recuire cutting and expanding the throat.
also trimming 444 dies some would not hurt as the base of the round on reminton brass is .466 not the .473 listed in most books. the rim and base is not even close to touching the die even when doing a 444 marlin rimless round.
IMOA die trimming is only going to be nessacry if you want to roll crimp with that die, since it will not reach completly to the top of the die. . Roll crimping is not advisable here as we need to head space of the mouth. I am hoping a trimed down lee factory crimp die can be used if it is even nessacry to crimp at all. A 44 mag die cut way down might crimp as well but will not work for sizing.
honestly feel I could shoot the ammo I have made as it with the correct load of powder.
1biggun
10-16-2008
quote:
Yeah that "over expanding" part of the expanding die is what I'm talking about
- cut that point back closer to the threads so the tip of the expander can
reach deeper into the cartridge to open it up deeper.
thinking back on this some more the whole reason I had to expanf with a mandral in the first placewas because the original expander in the 444 marlin dies was way to big to just open up the 30-06 case and would crush it. I had to open the mouth sligtly to get the expader started. other than that it would have formed brass as is but with a hour glass area past were the bullet was seated.
quote:
Yep, one of the things we need to decide on is the length of the case. I also
think that it would be best to cut the chamber and throat in two different
operations. I was looking at Clymer yesterday and they don't show a throater
for the 44 mag. So everything might need to be special made.
I agree 100% this will allow barrels to be custom made for specific bullets by adjusting the leed.
I saw .430 throaters some were and they were only like $30. i think they use them in forcing cones and cylinders on revolvers. they must be avaliable as guys play with .44 rifles a lot.
quote:
Looking at the 45acp at the mouth there is only .001 clearence and .003 at the
base. Like you said just switching to Mil-spec cases might result in a round
not chambering.
a simple inside neck turning would take care of this should it a rise. I persoanly plan to use Reminton brass as I have a few boxes to play with. However before I were to buy a reamer I would definatly want to try a buch of differant cases and see what has the thickest cases and try to design around that I would also be open to input before ordering a reamer. Commercial cases make the most sense to me because they allow the most case capacty. HOWEVER the thicker the neck for head spacing the better. Is there any cheap military 30-06 once fired brass out there for sale??? I know there is a lot of 308 stuff and it should be considerd for use as well but will likely require aneailng.
1biggun
10-16-2008
THROATING REAMERS at Brownells
444 marlin throater on sale some were I saw them cheaper
more
REVOLVER CYLINDER THROATING REAMER at Brownells
Gunter
10-16-2008
I swear Clymers site didn't show a 44 throater. LOL.
A 444 Marlin die set and a Lee factory crimp 444 is on the way. If we can do this without trimming the dies, that would be better.
hcpookie
10-16-2008
You will have to neck ream - just did one and the case wall is twice as thick as the factory brass. I'll start another thread to keep from derailing this one.
1biggun
10-16-2008
quote:
A 444 Marlin die set and a Lee factory crimp 444 is on the way. If we can do
this without trimming the dies, that would be better.
cool I would like to know how the crimp works before buying one. the crimp is hopefully the only thing that may need to be trimmed. good news is there reasonably cheap. lee will custom make you one as well.
you know it would be possable to buy/have made a CHAMBER reamer that did a short throat for a specific bullet the shortest one we would consider and then seperatly neck ream it deeper for other stuff. that way a guy could shoot the chamber as is and then open it up for other stuff later. I like the idea of one reamer cutting the lip for the head space and the start or most of the throat all at once. just thinking out loud here.
If i was the only one interesed in this I would likely just copy a 444 marlin throat length and be done with it. the 265 GR hornady is what I want to shoot mainly but I would like to play with cast lead and other lighter bullets. If the hornady people would get off there ass and sell the pointed bullets they make for there own ammo this would really wake this round up. or just a good jacketed softpont pointed rifle hunting round.
i know a guy who bought one of those new marlin leveractions in a hornady wonder round to find out he cant buy bullets to reload for it. He is pissed off big time!
Gunter
10-23-2008
The dies showed up, but the barrel won't be here till next week.
The crimp die will not work as is. Both the outside and inside pieces will need to be trimmed. Might be easier to use a 44mag crimp die with a spacer. Anyone know how to get a Lee crimp die apart or can it come apart?
The 444 dies are Lee also. Didn't mess with the FL die. The expander is just a turned sleeve that shouldn't be to hard to make a longer one on the lathe. The expander on the 44mag die is .424 and the one for the 444 is .426 and tapers to .430. Probably will make two different sizes of expanders to expand the case a little at a time in each step. The seating die also could probably just use a longer stem to seat the bullet. Again something that shouldn't be to hard to crank out on the lathe.
I went to Sportsman's Warehouse the other day to see about picking up some Leverlution ammo. Nothing in 44mag or 444 Marlin. I did pick up some 300gr Speer bullets to see how they work.
moleman
10-23-2008
I had to clean a 223 taper crimp die. I used a wooden dowel inserted in the top of the die to push the internal sliding part out of the bottem. It just had a raised ring on the collet part that rested against a recess in the die body to keep it from comming out. I don't know if the 444 taper crimp dies and the 223 dies are made the same though.
moleman
10-23-2008
Here's a picture of the collet taken out of the die body. You can see the wire ring that holds it in place.
1biggun
10-23-2008
Im not certain we will need to crimp but it would be nice if we could. im pretty sure a custom crimp die can be obtained from lee. the rounds I did the bullet fits pretty tight. hope fully the crimp die can be cut down.
TRX
10-26-2008
Originally Posted by Gunter
The reason I cut it at 1.700 is that is the length that the 44 Ballard Extra
Long
A .30-06 case will cut nicely to 2 inches. A .308 case will cut to 1.75, or 1.7 if you want to avoid all the shoulder.
1biggun
10-27-2008
the over all length of the case in this project is dictated by length of the mag. in this case a 1.70- 1.840 is all you can use and still have room to properaly seat a bullet.
for a longer 2"+ .44 build see my 444 marlin rimless project based on a cut down 30-06 case(on hold due to the work being done on this build).
Gunter
10-27-2008
Okay, did some measuring with the 300gr Speers and 1.7, 1.8, or 1.84 would work and still be within the 2.200 OAL spec. I think that any one of the three should cover most of the 44 magnum pistol bullets out there. The Leverlution bullet (if they are ever released for reloading) probably would not stay within the 2.2 spec with any of the case lengths.
So which one is it going to be? 1.7, 1.8, or 1.84????
1biggun
10-27-2008
well I was considering buying a box of the leverlution ammo. or possably just take the calipers to the store and ask if it was ok to measure because ammo is not returnable and I want to make sure it will fit my Mag.( a half lie) I suspect that they will get released and the hornady web site says eventualy they will. I am also looking into swedging some 458 bullets down if possable. custom made bullets are not completly out of the picture also.
the biggest bitch I have heard about the 450 bushmaster is it uses a pistol bullet instead of a true .458 rifle bullet. it would be nice if the 444???? Super Gunco Express Special Racnor Thunder Magnum Mach 11 didnt have that problem. LOL
I want the most powder capacity we can get and a secondary reason is ever notice how much rounds rattel in the mag from the extra space. really pisses me off when trying to sneak around with my hunting pistol. Ill post a thread in the general fire arms discussion are to see if any members have any of the leverlution ammo.
1biggun
10-27-2008
you know it occured to me that a .458 dia reammer would allow you to extend the neck area of the chamber later on.for example chamber it at 1.8 (45.73mm) and if the bullets are to long down the road simply extend the neck part of the chamber and adjust the throat with the reammer we will already have. the neck is straight as far back as the bullet is seated so extending that area out will not affect the original chamber. head spacing of the old ammo would no longer be any good.
Im thinking that a combination of a .431 throater a .458 necking reamer and the remander of the chamber bored at the correct taper on a lathe could make this chamber with out a special chambr reamer. the taperd portion is only aprox 1.30 long and has aprox .010 of taper in that distance. it could almost be done with a sanding roll and a die grinder. (I know it would not be match grade but it could be done) the 458 neck reamer would make a good rougher also. I could also use all the two straight reamers on my 444 rimless marlin project down the road as well as any other varaiton.
I see it going like this 1. ream a pre set distance with a straight 458 reamer (wonder what a 44 mag reamer measures at) this will give the finished neck area.
2. ream the throat this will give the finished throat and also the ledge for the head space.
3. then bore in the correct distance with a boring bar set at the correct angle on the tool post the aproxment 1.30 this will give the correct taper and finish the chamber.
one could likely have the taperd boreing go clear to the mouth but the brass in reality will only be taperd to were the bullet is seated. you would still be only streaching the brass aprox .005 (less than a 7.62x39 neck in a military chamber)
Or pony up $150 and buy a chamber that does it all and be done with it in one step (can always extend the throat later) a throater is $50
Gunter
10-27-2008
Looking on the net there are some reviews on the 30-30 that breaks it down. The cannelure is way up on the bullet and it appears that they keep it to the standard length of the 30-30 round. If they did this with the 44 magnum then it should still be the OAL of a standard 44 mag round. So, they might work with no problems. If someone had some of the 44 or 444 and get the measurements that would help.
1biggun
10-27-2008
Im guessing that trimmed 30-06 brass is thicker than 44mag.
heres a good link on reamer stuff
$40 for throating reamers $50 for a necking& throating reamer. the throating necking reamer is interesting because it would be good for a 444 marlin rimless or even a longer round like a full length 30-06 case opend to .44
https://mansonreamers.com/January 2008 Catalog.pdf
are the hornady leverlution bullets the same weight for the 44 mag and the 444 marlin???
ALSO WAS THINKING THE THROATING REAMER COULD BE USED FOR COUNTER BOARING THE MUZZEL FOR A MAGNAPORT TYPE DEAL OR FOR REAMING A SCREW ON BRAKE
moleman
10-27-2008
.44 auto mag cases can be made from 30-06 and 308 cases. A search on how to make the auto mag might help you out as it lounds like you're sorta making a longer 44 auto mag?
Gunter
10-27-2008
44magnum Lever Evolution is a 225gr and the 444 is a 265gr IIRC.
The 44automag was inside reamed to keep the bullet from moving back during recoil and feeding.
I posted over at the other forum asking questions on Ken Howell's 444 rimless. Was it inside reamed, tried in an auto-loader, etc., with no responses. From his threads it appears that he is just using standard 444 Marlin dies with no inside reaming. Which is less work and I don't want to ream if it is not needed.
I would think that first we need to set a spec and method so that anyone can produce the same case. Then load some dummy rounds and test for bullet walk. I would hate to make/have a reamer made and chamber a barrel only to find out that it needs to be inside reamed which would change the OD of the case mouth. Then we would get to start all over again.
1biggun
10-27-2008
quote:
.44 auto mag cases can be made from 30-06 and 308 cases. A search on how to
make the auto mag might help you out as it lounds like you're sorta making a
longer 44 auto mag?
they require inside neck reaming, which valadates my thoughts that the brass is much thicker than a normal 44 mag or auto mag case.
quote:
I don't want to ream if it is not needed.
agreed Im not sure if there is much military brass out there for sale any more???????
for this project to be viable to shoot cheap (the whole reasson for not building a 450 marlin or a 458 socom) is the avaliabilty of cheap once fired and easily avaliable new brass. I likely will want to nust use new remington or some other cheap comercial brass. the thinner wall will allow for more powder and still be pleanty strong. I see remington and winchester used for sale quite a bit.
there will be no need to inside ream if the reamer made for what ever brass we plan to use. It would be good to know how much thicker other brass is from remington. how ever the looser we make the chamber to allow for thicker necks the worse the accuracy and area that is avaliable to head space off of. dont forget that if you were to find a hughe amount of military brass you could always enlarge the neck or inside turn the brass. other than the neck the rest will still be the same regardless of brand as it will be sized the same from the dies. IT WILL BE EASIER TO ENLARGE A NECK OR THROAT AREA IN A CHAMBER THAN MAKE IT SMALLER LOL
quote:
44magnum Lever Evolution is a 225gr and the 444 is a 265gr IIRC.
INTERESTING THE 225 BULLETS IN THE 444???? WILL HAUL ASS!!!. i CAN SEE IT BEING A 200-300 YARD GUN. IMOA. IN A BOLT ACTION WERE WE CAN RUN THE PRESSURES UP TO 308 OR HIGHER PRESSURES THIS ROUND WILL LKELY BE EQUAL TO OR BETTER THAN A COMERCIALY LOADED 444 MARLEN DUE TO THE MARLINS LOWER SAMMI PRESSURES.
WE NEED THESE BULLETS. IT WOULD ALMOST BE WORTH PULLING THEM FOR HUNTING APPLICATIONS. i CAN BELIEVE THAT SOME ONE ELSE HAS NOT STARTED MAKING SOME THING SIMULAR.
1biggun
11-09-2008
Played with my box of parts for the 444??? super blaster express. and I tried some loded rounds into a steel ar mag and they fit damm near perfect, the lips on thses mags hold the round nice and level and there steel and cheap. I really wish I had bought a few of those mag addapters. the mags are steel so they can have taps welded on or possably a ar style mag well can be added. A AR in 444??? super death hammer mach 2 would be a really nice build as well. Im thinking it would not take much to build a ar mage well and add it to a ak reciver perminatly I like the way the AR mags go in and out much better than a AK any way. HMMMMMM I post some pics of the rounds in the mag latter.
A US mag would save some $$$$ on compliance parts as well.
pale horse
12-09-2008
Im all for 44 mag bore and the use of a o6 case makes lots of sense. I would like to go the 45 long colt route but its just a pet cal of mine. has anyone tryed a 45acp , a 45 thompson barrel would be neat in a ak 45acp its use in the ar platform is being used now 10mm also. I like big bore pistal cals even 50ae well cant wait for a few to get built
vz58
12-10-2008
Pale horse 45 super (45acp but faster) will work in a gas op ak using grease gun mags. So even though the ar series requires more gas to operate, I believe this would not be a problem at all. Also you could go 45 wm, that definately has the gas.
If you would like to see a thompson barrel in an ak look at the 45 wm thread in this section
Gunter
12-11-2008
Also Rhino_66 did a 45acp.
http://www.gunco.net/forums/f244/ak-45-update-rhino-23434/ LINK 404
Gunter
12-11-2008
Well the postlady brought me a little package today....it is Load From a Disk. That was some fast shipping. So, with about half-reading the manual and just trying the program out. The 44 super blaster express super death hammer mach 2 ??? should have a empty case of 66.577 grains of water (according to the program...will have to measure with a real case and see). Using the 300gr Speer, 18 inch barrel, the program shows that with several powders it should run around 1900fps with pressure of around 41,000 CUP. If you keep it around 1800fps the pressure is around 36,000 CUP. Of course this is just what the program says and real life might prove different.
I ran the optimum rifling twist rate on that bullet at that velocity and it was 1-40????? My 1-18 might be a little fast.
1biggun
12-11-2008
Cool I wanted one those programs myself.
Its funny I was guessing(think I even stated it here) 1900-2100 fps with 50,000psi and 265 gr. what does the program say at the those specs???? MAN ITS GOT TO BE CLOSE!
I have the .44444 EXTREAM SUPER MACHO RAPTOR SLAYER DECIMATER EXPRESS Z28 on hold for a bit need to get the pre obama crap finished. besides its deer season.
I did pick up a spare yugo M-70 trunion for it as well as a NDS-5 RECIVER registerd as a pistol so i guess that is sort of working on it. I need to see what my blank has for a twist rate. I really want some Hornady leverlution bullets for this project. maybe if we contacted them they might be willing to help. some one here or on another gun board must have a contact there. I even considerd having custom bullets made. with a soft point. I want a .430 core- lokt type hunting rifle style bullet. I could buy 44mag rounds and pull the hornady bullets for the few actual hunting shots I shoot a year.
1biggun
12-12-2008
any way to figure what a .41 version of the .444 KKK (king Kong Killer) would do?????
Gunter
12-12-2008
I measured a case last night that was expanded at the top only, not full length and it came out at 53.8 grains of water. Maybe if it was fully formed it might get to the 66.5 grains. With this smaller case it should push a 300gr at 1658fps around 37,000 CUP.
I didn't see a 265gr bullet, so I used a 250gr and at 1984fps it was around 42,200 CUP. So that should be close to your figures 1biggun.
As for a .41, staying around 37-38,000 CUP, 16 inch barrel, and using a 200gr bullet, the 401WSL ran 1860fps, the 41-44CL ran 1792fps, and the 41 Jurras ran 1813fps.
Of course all of this doesn't mean squat until one is loaded, fired, and then see how close the data is.
1biggun
12-12-2008
quote:
So that should be close to your figures 1biggun.
FIGURES?????????
hell I cant figure out how to mix oil to gas on my snow blower. all I did was look at a 444 marlin numbers subtract some speed in my head for smaller case capicty then added some speed for the higer pressure I think we can get away with then subtracted a little bit because nothing in my life goes as fast as it should and that is what I GUESSED. sort of faster than a 454 casull and slower than a 444 marlin.
I keep thinking a .41 with a neck might be a better over all round for head spacing and for velocity. I will get the .444 wonder banger going before next deer season.
1biggun
12-12-2008
damm I was close on the case capaity and the FPS I just reread the entire thread. I guessed 53 -55 grs and 1800-1900 fps
you came up with 53.8 or bigger due to not being expanded and 1984FPS at 42,000 CUP.
so in reality if we do gain some case capicty from expaning and bump the pressure up we might see 2100 FPS
42,000 CUP is a nice safe number given the larger rim than a 7.62x39. this should be safe on a rommy trunion and bolt.
Gunter
01-27-2009
Well, after looking around for some of the LEVERevolution in 44mag without any success. I ordered a box of ammo to pull a bullet from last week. Today I'm looking around Midway USA and see this:
Hornady has released the LEVERevolution bullets for reloading!!!! I'll pull some anyway to see how they fit in the 44???.
1biggun
01-28-2009
Hornady has released the LEVERevolution bullets for reloading!!!! I'll pull some anyway to see how they fit in the 44???.
SWEET I LOVE IT WHEN A PLAN COMES TOGETHER. WITH THESE BULLTES THIS ROUND SHOULD DO WELL OUT TO 200 YARDS IM THINKING. THIS MAY GET ME MORE MOTIVATED TO KEEP PUSHING FORWARD ON THIS PROJECT. TO TOP IT OF THERE THE 265 GRINERS THAT i WANTED. THIS MAY ALSO BE THE DECIDING FACTOR IN DOING A 444 MARLIN RIMLESS BUILD AS WELL. AND ALSO MAKES THE HANDIRIFLE MORE ATTRACTIVE. IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT THE OVERALL LENGTH ENDS UP BEING. i WANT IT TO BE JUST UNDER THE MAG LENGTH OF A 223 MAG. ONCE THE WE GET A MAG LENGTH ESTABLISHED THEN ITS REAMER TIME. THIS ROUND WOULD BE GREAT IN A MAUSER RIFLE WELL. IM THINKING A PRE 98 MAUSER SMALL RING WOULD POSSABLY BE SUTIABLE. MONEY, AND FREEZING WEATERR ARE HOLDING ME UP AS WELL AS NEEDING TO GET SOME KITS INTO RIFLE FORM BEFORE LAW CHANGES. .
Gunter
01-28-2009
That was what I was waiting on to see if the 1.800" case length would work with them. Then it will be time to get back to work on this project.
I too was thinking about a small ring Mauser or even an Araiska Type38 action if I can find one. Either one should make a good short range deer rifle.
allesennogwat
05-26-2009
Hornady FTX Leverevolution load data link.
1biggun
05-26-2009
Hornady FTX Leverevolution load data link. Hornady thanks for the link. I see the they state that the 1-38 twist barrels will not stabelize these bullets and that it needs to be a 1-20 twist. the 450 bushmaster is doing pretty good at 2200 FPS.
TRX
06-02-2009
Some discussion of a "rimless .444" on Cast Boolits:
A New .444 - Cast Boolits
1biggun
06-02-2009
there are a few versions of this round out there. I have fomed cut down 30-06 brass using 444 marlin dies I was going to use it in my 308 conversion with a rebarrel but then when Gunter began thinking of a shorter version that would work in a AK/AR amg well that I decided to build on a 7.62X39. set up. there is a 444 rimles thread here as well that I started before this thread thatGunter actualy started. there have been a few bolt guns but to my Knowledge know one has done a auto like this with a AK kength mag.
this gun will get built I have bought a barrel blank and dies as well as made up several loaded rounds. gunter Is invested in this project as well. I have to many projects and limited funds to get it done imeaditly. there is a kit marked 444 rimless sitting here and the bolt face is done.
Gunter
06-02-2009
I wish there were 48 hours in a day. Just not enough time with all the stuff that comes with summer. Trying to turn a reamer is next on the list for the lathe. Like 1biggun, I've got a Yugo barrel assy and bolt/carrier ready for the build.
1biggun
09-22-2009
I started working on this again I got my 1 1/4" OD non concentric blank in the lathe and after a lot of shaking of the entire lathe I finally got it round but it was a job. I made a pilot and then used a dog to drive the barrel and just used the live center on the other end. Im pretty sure im with in .0005 on the run out but it really wont matter to much if its a little more. took about 3 hours to get it done. Im concerned about the amount of stress imparted from all the cutting and all that stuff wonder if the barrel is even straight any more. Im going to try to cut the chamber with a boring bar after I use a piolted reamer to cut the bullet leade/ free bore. whats the worst that can happen? This will be a while untill I can aford the reamer for the bullet leade.
vz58
09-22-2009
hold the barrle up to the cloudy near the sun. SIght the bore, you will be surprised at how accuratelty the eye can detect a bent bore.
1biggun
09-22-2009
there is alot to be done yet before it comes out of the lathe. it takes a lot of time to cut it slowley enough to keep the temps down. I will be cutting of both ends before the final profile as i suspect the ends are likely a differant ID now from all the metal being cut away.
1biggun
12-23-2009
I see hornady now has the 44 bllet in a 225gr. that will help the recoil some and give it more speed and flatter trajectory. I really need to get this project done.
http://www.hornady.com/store/LEVERevolution-FTX-c-416/
1biggun
09-07-2012
Well its been 4 years an I have started looking at this project again. Im not sure here so go with it. Im basiacly held up on the chamber I know it will work just need to finish it. the barrel is profiled
moleman
09-07-2012
Do you have a chamber drawing done? If so we can make a chamber reamer.
TRX
09-08-2012
Oddly enough, I was just thinking about this project. The ???? is basically a stretched .44 Auto Mag.
I've seen a couple of AR builds in .44 Auto Mag, which is the same basic thing as the ????. except shorter. Starline makes Auto Mag brass, or you can cut down .308 brass and ream the neck. Hornady .44 AMP die sets are about $70, but the RCBS neck reamer rig is steep.
The original .44 AMP literature claimed a 240 grain bullet at 1600 feet per second. The factory later backed off to 240 grains at 1250 fps, apparently due to the hot load battering the pistol. There were never any SAAMI specs for the .44 AMP, so reloaders generally kept loading them up until something broke.
Now, interestingly, the .30 Carbine is 1.65" long. So is the .50 Action Express. One of the "build an AK" booklets I found long ago had a .50 AE build using .30 Carbine magazines; the author said it worked fine.
If the mag feeds a .50AE it should feed a .44 AMP too. They're the same length. So is the AMT 10mm Magnum (NOT the 10mm Auto!). The .45 Winchester Magnum is a bit shorter, as is the 9mm Winchester Magnum. And there are a bunch of wildcats of Auto Mag length - .22, .25, and .30 Lomont, .300 Auto Mag, .41 Jurras Magnum, .475 Auto Mag, .40 KMP, and 8mm KMP (which uses unmodified 8mm Kurz brass). And, of course, the .357 Auto Mag...
.30 Carbine mags came in 10, 15, 20, and 30 round capacities.
I know, it's not directly related to the ????, but this was the best place I could think of...
1biggun
09-09-2012
ill be off line for a or two to adress internet provider issues . when i get back Id like to maybe work on a reamer idea as well as oter issues on this round
moleman
09-09-2012
I know we can get a reamer done for you. Straight walled case reamers aren't hard to make. Here's a couple reamers I made recently for a custom bushing die set. The chamber reamer will look about the same, only with a case mouth step and rifling leade. Included is a basic drawing of a reamer blank that I spoke about in the PM. The case body length area needs actually be longer than the case is, and the freebore area is going to work out to be around .150" long or so and .431" diameter. You can also make the pilot shorter if you want, but I would keep it at least .5" long.
1biggun
09-11-2012
i need to decide if i want some more taper in the chamber or not. Its should be the same as a 444 marlin reamer except shorter an the area were the bullet seats ( neck ) would be straight. im using 444 dies so there is no reasint he chamber would be to much differant. I likely will need a special die also or at leat a way to or form the neck section seperatly down. Im still thinking a pas through a 444 marlin die would do an intial resising an then just size the very end with a 44 mag die possably honed out to compensate for the thicker neck. i cant recall what happpend to using a lee factry crimp die in 444 marlin witht he bottom shaved off? i need to go back an read.
the 410 has a barrel shroud that extends past the breach to allow the rounf to tip up high then be guided down . im not sure if this would beed ok or not. were trying to stick a bllet in a holt thats only about .010 bigger than the cases OD. it might be a bitch toi get it to feed ok.
a shroud could be duplicasted or even pressed on a non shrouded barrel or some thin or even added to the inside of the dust cover . bit the bolt has to clear it an the 410 bolt is a little differant from a standard ak bolt.
moleman
09-13-2012
1biggun, case expansion isn't going to be as much of an issue as case neck thickness, both have easy fixes. The necks just need to be turned or reamed, once they are brought up to size. Just make a set of expanders like I did for the 357AR to bring 223 cases up to 357.
The two case expander stems jus fit inside of a lee powder through expander die and force the case open in two steps from .224" to .357". If you're going below the shoulder it should be muchc easier and you shold have fewer lost cases.
1biggun
09-13-2012
I HAVE A EXPANDED ALREADY MADE AT ONE POINT AN IT WORKED OK. I NEEDED I PROFILE IT TO COMPENSATE FOR THE BRASS BEING THICKER AT THE BOTTOM. EVEN IF ITS NOT EXPANDED ALL THE WAY DOWN AN YOU GET A HOUR GLASS LOOK IT WILL STILL CHAMBER AN FIRE. THAT WILL BLOW IT STRAIGHT. ITS LIKELY YOU MAY NEED TO INSIDE REAMS TO REMOVE THE TAPER IN THE BRASS AT THE NECK . THE BULLET MAY SEAT OK OR NOT. ID LIKE THE BRASS AS THICK AS PPOSSIBLE TO GIVE MORE TO HEAD SPACE OFF OF. IM GOING TO GET BUNCH OF 308 ONCE FIRED BRASS (LOOKING FOR A GOOD DAY SOURCE BTW) TO USE IN MY 6MM BR PROJECT SO I SHOULD HAVE SOME TO PLAY WITH.
moleman
09-14-2012
Originally Posted by TRX:
Moleman, I must have missed your 357AR thread. Where did you post it?
TRX, I just posted a little thread on it here. http://www.gunco.net/forums/f255/357ar-66500/index3.html LINK 404
The bulk of the design and resurch was done on weaponsguid in a thread called 357 maximun barrels, and another titled 357AR build. I just got home from getting 2 disks fused so when I have time I'll move some of it over here to go over the whys and hows a bit better. Alot of the isues I had I can see others having with their straight walled cartridges. I had hoped to take it deer hunting this year as I think it should make an excellent deer cartridge out to 250yds or so. I'll have to wait till next year for that though.
1biggun
09-14-2012
I just got home from getting 2 disks fused so when I have time I'll move some of it over here to go over the whys and hows a bit better. Alot of the isues I had I can see others having with their straight walled cartridges
I REALLY HOPE YOUR SURGERY HELPS YOU AN MAKES YOUR LIFE BETTER. MAN YOU GOT OUT OF THE HOSPITAL FAST. HOWS IT FEEL SO FAR? BESIDED I BET IT HURTS LKE HELL.
DONT SWEET MY ROUND IT WILL BE A WHILE BFORE I GET IT GOING. I HAVE A YOUTH GUN TO HELP FINSH AN TIME IS RUNNING OUT.
THE 444? RUNS THE SAME TAPER AS A 444 MARLIN (OR THATS HW i MADE MINE) MY MAIN CONCERN WOULD BE THAT THE BRASS IS UNIFORM IN THICKNESS WERE THE BULLET IS SEATED. I NEED TO SECTION A FEW DIFFRANT CASES AN SEE WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE AT AROUND THE 1.5" MARK.
IM SURE IF I RAN THEM INTO MODIFED 44MAG OR SIMULAR TTIM DIE OR A 444 MARLIN TRIM DIE POSSABKLY CROUND DOWN OR A HOME MADE TRIM DIE MADE FOR A SIZING REAMER THEY COUD EASLY BE INSIDE REAMED STRAIGHT . OR i COULD LIKELY JUST CHUCK THEM UP IM MY CASE TRIMMER AN AN INSIDE REAM THEM STRAIGHT.
MIGHT EVEN BE ABLE TO SET IT UP SO THERE IS A SHELF TO SEAT THE BULLET ON SO IT CANT BE FORCED BACK UNDER RECOIL OR FEEDING ??????
AKS CAN BE REALLY AHRD ON BULLET TIPS DURING FEEDING.
I WONT BE HAPPY IF THE ROUND CANT DO A 1" GROUP AT 75 YARDS IN A GOOD BARREL. I HAVE NO IDEA HOW THE BARREL I MADE FORM A UNTURNED BLANK THAT HAD A VERY OUT OF CENTER BORE WILL SHOOT. i TOOK A LOT OF METAL OFF OF IT AN I HAVE NO IDEA HOW UNIFORM THE BORE STILL IS OR HOW MUCH STRESS THERE IS IN IT . IF I WERE TO DO IT OVER AGAIN ID BUY A BETTER BLANK OR STARTING POINT.
moleman
09-14-2012
1biggun, Not my first back surgery, but this one was quiten a bit more involved. I was back in a treestand after six weeks last time, this time tehy're telling me I'll be able to start pt after 6 weeks. The surgery took 4.5hrs and they had 2-2.5 planned for it. Hopefully they got it right this time. I was supposed to come home tues, but they wouldn't let me go till yesterday. Anyway, it'll be a while for I'm able to make ot back out to the shop or type a completescentence without totally butchering it.
The 444 marlin cases should work nicly and if not a custom die isn't real hard to make either. The case taper can be addressed with reaming or turning and isn't hard. Here's a trial case I made without thinning the neck. You can see it has a bulge at the bullet base. Thats just extra material that can be removed to end up with a nice tapered case. In the second pic I push a case onto the arbor once its centered in trhe 4-jaw and turn the neck to the desired diameter, light poloish and you're done. The same could be done with reaming.
EDIT: the shape of the arbor is important. In the pic it is bullet sized, so I just turn the necks to .380" (IIRC) to just below where the bullet base would be. I have scratched a line on the mandrel to know how far to push the brass onto it and tapered the front of it. I check up the mandrel in the 4-jay and indicate on it till it tuns true as beast as I can measure at .0005". To remove the bump in the shoulder from the 223 cases I'm using I run the roller tool from the bullets base and over the bump towards the case mouth, but not over the case mouth as it will flair it out. Usually when you get close to the case mouth the case will stop spinning on the arbor as it has enlagarged slightly in diameter, the tool post can be backed off and the case can be pulled off easily. Then resize it and back on the mandrel with a cutting bit in the tool post. The arbor is .357" diameter and slightly longer than bullet diameter so I push the cases on evenly to the scratch mark (ring) I just trun the case from the the case mouth to the bullet base. Once the cutter is over the tapered tip of the mandrel it will wopen up the case neck slightly and start making a lighter cut. remove the cutter quickly or you'll get chatter like cuts fromt he case wobbeling around on there. I run a couple passes over them with a brown scotch pad to polish the slightly, resuze, final trim and preload away! Hope that helps out with a couple of the questions.
TRX
10-31-2012
Originally Posted by moleman:
Do you have a chamber drawing done? If so we can make a chamber reamer.
I'm looking at the specs for the .444 Marlin and .30-06 now. The Marlin base is .4706, the '06 .471. Marlin case 2.25, '06 2.494.
You could probably rent a .444 reamer for $35 and run it in an extra quarter inch, BUT it would need to have a square step at the front since you'd be headspacing there. I've seen drawings for similar (rimmed, straight case) chambers with both square and beveled shoulders, so you'd want to call or e-mail before renting a reamer.
If you shortened the case to fit in a .308 AK mag or 8mm Yugo mag, the build would basically be a barrel, bolt face mod if needed, and you could rock and roll...
1biggun
10-31-2012
???? Running a 444 marlin ins extra amount will make a chamber way way to long. The 444? Is. about 1.80 long not 2.5" long.
TRX
11-03-2012
Yarrgh, that's what I get for looking in the wrong column...
moleman
11-03-2012
If it's going to be rimless with no shoulder you have to headspace on the case mouth and the rimmed reamers cut a taper large enough you have to go in deeper to get the diameter back so you can cut the case mouth step. It also can throw off the taper of you chamber slightly. Much easier to make a reamer. The reamers not hard to make, just tedious. I bought an indexer between back surgeries (second one wasn't planned) so once I'm moving around good again it should be even easier.
1biggun
11-03-2012
nice score on the indexer.
I have talked to guys who have made the 444 marlin rimless they used a standard 444 marlin reamer an then used a chucking reamer to remove the taper to work as a stop. most reamers ahve extra neck length to you will have to runthe reamer short or make our brass longer.
the 444???? will need a special reamer or need to be cut with a boring bar.
I think you can use 444 marlin dies however. i have made brass for it. you will need to likely inside ream it. it would be best to expand it straight with a arbor an then sixe it in the dies an then ream the neck area to a correct id.
when this thread was started there were no leverlution bullets avalaible so you were stuck with pistol bullets. The bullet length dictates the case length if you want to get as much capacity as possable. today thre are leverltution bullets avaliable IMIO they wlould be the best for feeding with there plastic tip as well as for veleocity etc.
If i were to retake up work on this project I would start witht he heavest 44 leverlution bullet an work back ward setting case length the allow the bullet to be seated at proper depth at a near mag length OAL loaded length. id make the reamer form the loaded round.
I have been thinking about this round a little more the last few months.Its occured to me that more caxe taper would benifit the it creatly for feeding an also to make it work in a some sort of standard round. I have been working on a 6.5x55 swede an it has a bigger case head. If 6.5 swede brass were used ( yea the cost goes up to make it) then you could have more taper in the round. american swede brass is a little undersized . european brass is closer to the claimed .080 case head it should have. At any rate it would give you a round with more taper. food for thought.
TRX
11-16-2012
http://tml.travellercentral.com/stealth/index.html LINK 404
The ".416 Stealth." It's a Whisper type cartridge, made by sawing off a .308 case and using a .416 bullet. Overall length is same as a .223.
The available bullet selections are considerably different between the .429" and .416" sizes; most .429 bullets are basically .44 Magnum pistol bullets, which annoys the .444 Marlin guys. At subsonic velocities like the .416's designer talks about, a pistol bullet would seem to be a more appropriate choice for something intended to kill something besides paper; .416 bullets are usually heavy-wall stuff, designed to expand deep inside big game at 2000-2500fps.
Still, an interesting design...
1biggun
11-16-2012
A 41 CAL HAS BEEN DONE. IM NOT SURE HOW HE IS HOLDING THE BULLET THERE LOOKS TO BE A VERY SHORT NECK NOT GOING TO WORK WELL IN A AUTO LOADER . IS HE HEAD SPACING OFF THE THE CASE MOUTH OR THE WEIRD CRIMP/ SHOLDER NECK. IT LOOKS LIKE THERE MIGHT BE SOME TAPER ADDED IF SO A GOOD THING FOR FEEDING.
IN SUBSONIC WHY NOT JUST SHOOT LEAD?????? AN IF YOUR GOING TO SHOOT LEAD JUST USE A CAT .44 BULLET ( REALLY .429) ???????? i DONT SEE A REAL ADVANTAGE IN SUBSOINC WITH A 41 VS 44. 44 BULLET WITH MORE WEIGHT WILL HAVE MORE ENERGY AT SUBSONIC SPEEDS. IM LOOKING AT A 9MM, 338 AN 35 BENCH REST OR BRX DOWN THE ROAD AFTER i GET THE 6MM AN OTHERS FIGURED OUT. THOS WWOULD ALLOW YOU TO HEAD SPACE OFF THE SHOULDER AN ALSO MAKE IT EASIER TO FEED AS THE BREACH HAS A LOT MORE CLEARANCE DUE TO IT BEING A BOTTLE NECK ROUND.
I FIRMY BELIEAVE A CUT DOWN 308 TYPE CASE IN AK IS A GOOD WAY TO GO FOR A LOT OF AK BASED WILD CATS. FINDING A MAG TO WORK AS IS IS GOING TO BE A REAL CHALLANGE IF NOT IMPOSSABLE. I HAVE BEEN PLAYIG WITH MAGS FOR THREE DAYS ON MY 6MM PROJECT ITS OBVIOUS THAT A HI CAP MAG WILL NEED MODS OF SOME SORT.
THE ISSUE IS THE BIGGER DIAMITER CASE RAISES THE CENTER LINE OF THE BULLET DOWN WHEN HELD UNDER THE LIPS. RASING THE BULLET OR MAG CAUSES ISSUES WITH CARRER CLERANCE AN ALSO CAUSE A LOT OF MOVMENT INTHE MAG AS THE CARRER RIDES BACK OVER THE ROUND. IN MY 6MM IM AFRAID IT WILL DEFORM THE SHARPER SHOULDER HAS IT COMES BACK AN TRIED TO SHOVE 20 ROUNDS OR SO BACK DOWN INTHE MAG. THE LOWER CENTER LINE MAKES IT HARD TO GET THE ROUND UP OVER THE BULLET GUIDE AN WHEN IT DOES THE ANGLE OF ENTRY INTOT HE CHAMBER IS PRETTY SHARP. THE WIDTH RESTRICTIONS OF A FACTORY MAKES IT HARD TO MAKE A A ROUND DOUBLE ARANGE WMT STAY UNDER THE LIPS WITH THE LIP WITH BEING WIDE ENOUGHT TO CLEAR THE BOLT AN CARRIER . A SHICK STEM CARRIER CAN ONLY BE MADE SO NARROW BEFORE ITS TO THIN AT THE BOLT STEM BORE.
A SMALL STEM CARRER WOULD BE BETTER BUT THEN YOUR DEALING WITH OPENING UP A 223 ROMMY TYPE BOLT OR LIKELY A 5.45 BOLT FACE UP TO .470"
PARTS OF A THE EDGES OF A 5.45 BOLT ARE REALLY THIN OR GONE WHEN YOU OPENTHE FACE TO .470. IM LOOKING AT THE FEASABILTY AN SAFTEY OF DOING THIS RIGHT NOW . THEN YOU GOT TO MAKE THE 5.45 EXTRACTER WORK ALSO I HAVENT TRIED IT YET.
IMO YOU WILL BE MODIFYING MAGS OF SOME SORT IF YOUR USING 308 BOLT FACE IN A AK/AR MAG LENGTH SHELL. THESE ISSUES ARE NOT SEEN IN A 308 TYPE CONVERSION BECAUSE YOU ARE USING 308 BASED MAGS. IM LOOING IT SECTONING A 308 MAG FOR THE 6MMM VARIANT PROJECT BUT THAT DEFEATING MY GOAL OF A BARREL ONLY CONVERSION. A MOD TO MAKE THE ROUNDS CENTER FEED FROM A GALIL MAG MIGHT BE THE EASYEST IF i CAN GET IT TO GO OUT OF A DUBLE STACK POSITION RELABLY. A SINGLE STCK MAG WOULD BE AOPTION AS WELL BUT i DONT HTING THERE GOING TO FIT IN A 223 MAG.
IM LOOKING FOR A X39 AN 223 SINGLE STACK MAG TO PLAY WITH IT IF ANY ONE HAS ANY CHEAP??????????
IT HAS ALSO OCCURED TO ME A HIGHLY TAPERD ROUND BASED ON 308 BRASS WOULD BE USEFULL AN EASIER TO FEED OUT OF A STANDARD CURVED AK MAG BUT YOU LIKEY WOULD NOT GAIN ANY THING OVER USIONG GRENDEL OR SPC BRASS DUE TO LOOSING GASE CAPACITY . IM LOOKING AT BEINBG ABLE TO GET ABIOUT 44 GRAINS CAPACITY OUT OF A THIN WALL COMMERCAIL 308 TYPE BRASS... THAT IS THE ADVANTAGE OF THIS OVER A GRENDAL BARES ROUND. ALSO A GRENDAL BASED ROUND IS GOING TO BE LIMITED TO ABOUT 9MM BULLETS DUE TO THE SMALLER OD.
TRX
11-17-2012
Originally Posted by 1biggun:
IN SUBSONIC WHY NOT JUST SHOOT LEAD?
Hey, don't look at *me*! I've been asking that all along...
quote:
I FIRMY BELIEAVE A CUT DOWN 308 TYPE CASE IN AK IS A GOOD WAY TO GO FOR A LOT OF AK BASED WILD CATS. FINDING A MAG TO WORK AS IS IS GOING TO BE A REAL CHALLANGE IF NOT IMPOSSABLE.
I'd try an AK-74 magwell opening and a 5.45 mag first, then either a .223 AK mag or one of those M-16 STANAG adapters.
The .50 Beowulf is nearly straight and feeds fine through a M-16/AR-15 mag; I expect a straight .308 based round would work too.
1biggun
11-17-2012
I have tried 223 am mags the shells won't stay under the lips. You bump them an they come flying out. 5.45 mags to narrow at the front
Shoves the round to the side as it feeds out.
1biggun
11-18-2012
quote:
I'd try an AK-74 magwell opening and a 5.45 mag first, then either a .223 AK mag or one of those M-16 STANAG adapters.
The .50 Beowulf is nearly straight and feeds fine through a M-16/AR-15 mag; I expect a straight .308 based round would work too.
IM pretty sure the 50 beowulf is a single stack deal in a AR mag an that the round will not fit throught the lip opening . the rounds have to be slid in fromthe front under the lips.
I have played with the 6mm br variant brass an it will not fit through the lips for sure. the problem is with a 308 win OD it almost does so the round sits really high out of the mag. There are guys shooting 6mm br an 6mm BRX in ar 15 mags from ar,s . From what I have read the main guy who does 6mm br uppers has mags special built for the round. there described as double stack but center feed. I may buy one if all else fails an just weld AK tabs to it. There about $35 each unfortunatly. A AR addapter would work but there not cheap. Id perfer to make this use AK mags. what ever I figure out for the 6mm project will likely work on the 444?????? as long as the front of the mag works with the larger bullets an dosent shove them to the side.
Tony at Tromix built a 458 socom an a AK I need to go back an see what mags he used. im sure they were a center stack deal also.
I was toying with the idea of a simple set of spacers that went inside the mags that welded to the sides that made a standard Galil 35 rounder into a single stack an then just narrow the lips to keep the round from going between them. If I can make them double stack center feed some how easy I will. Id have to figure a way to keep the rounds from haning up under the lips. possably bend them outward an them weld in some thing to narrow them. I dont want the carrier shoving the rounds into the mag a 1/4" every time the carrier comes back over the top of them. that would be hard on brass, mags , springs ect.
getting the geomitry just right is critical or you wont clear the bullet guide an if its to high the bullet guide will not lift it an it will hit the end of the barrel an not feed.
a 44 bullet is only about .025 smaller than the hole its got to feed into. that why IMO the 458 socom that is bottle necked is the better round. Its also why a 410 sagia. has a upper shroud extending from the barrel.
I still feel a Sagia 410 with a rifled barrel using brass 2.5" 410 hulls an bullet loaded protruding out of the hulls like a standard rifle round might be a better way to go. you could use 3" mags an the there would be no binding in a a standard mag like the 444 marlin did on Tonys build from tromix. I also would still be a shot gun an would also likely shoot standard shot gun shells. I have also toyed with a 2.5" sagia mag ( hard to get an expensive) an then you could use cut down 308 brass.
There is a guy who makes rifled 410 barrels an im pretty sure he even made a few saiga barrels. this would be a really easy way to get a 44 or 45 cal rifle with littel work. the down side is its still techcnicaly a 410 shot gun an I cant hunt here with a 410 shot gun even if the round looks like a rifle an does 2500 fps. Id have to replace the reciver an use a 410 SG for a parts kit to make it a rifle technicaly . . If a 410 was deer hunt legal I would have already done a rifled barrel on mine. an malikng it a rifle makes it sdo i cant hunt in the zome im in sort of a catch 22
TRX
12-02-2012
I noticed Gunter hasn't checked in since 2009. Does anyone know what happened to him?
1biggun
12-02-20
my Last pm from him showed some concerns about posting every thing he does online or some thing to that affect. We had shared considerable info an ideas on the wild cat.
I dont know if he ever finished his or not. when Obama got elected a lot of plans got reorganised.
The project on my end got stalled out due to wanting to get other guns built an my plans to build a switch barrel gun an was going to do a 444??? on it. The lack of bullet selection was also a issue . We were both sort of waiting for a 265 grain leverlution bullet to be sold seperatly so we could decide on a common case length that would be optimal for the unknown bullet dimensions. We wanted to as I recall make the case optimal for the longest bullets avaliable .
The round is still viable an doable. Imo the chamber can be cut with a boring bar an neck an throated with a seperate reamer. the bullet being only .025 or so smaller than the chamber might be hard to feed.
I still have the the barrel I turned unchamberd. sooner or later ill finish it.
TRX
12-03-2012
Several of the custom mold makers will make molds any weight .429" bullet you want for $100-ish. Speer also makes 300 grain FMJs for the .44.
A cast bullet ought to work just fine unless you want to really push the limits.
1biggun
12-04-2012
IF I BUILD IT IT WILL BE RUNNING AROUND 48,000 PSI OR SO . LEAD WILL NOT LIKELY WORK WILL AT THE SPEEDS PROJECTED. SEEMS LIKE WE WERE GITTING NUMBERS LIKE 2400 FPS iLL HAVE TO REREAD THE THREAD. SOME WERE AI AHVE A FEW ACTUAL LOADED ROUNDS FOR THE PROJECT.
LEAD WOULD BE GREAT IN THIS AT SLOWER SPEEDS AN SUBSONIC . HOWEVER IF YOUR NOT GOING TO SHOT IT AT HIGHT SPEED AN PRESSURES WHY EVEN BUILD IT??
A 45 AUTO, 10MM, 44 AUTO MAG ETC WOULD ALL BE BETTER AT SLOW OR SUPSONC WITH LEAD. THE 444 WAS DESIGNED AT LEAST IM MY MINDS AS TRYING TO GET THE MOST OUT OF A 44 CAL IN A AK LENGTH MAG. WOULD ITRY LEAD FOR PLINKING SURE BUT IM NIT GOING TO WASTE A LOT OF TIME MAKING UP CUSTOM BRASS TO SHOOT LEAD A T UNDER 1000 FPS WHEN A 45 AUTO WILL DO THAT AS IS AN ABOUT 75% CHEAPER.
MY GOLAS WERE A HUNTING ROUND THAT WAS GOOD TO OVER 250 YARDS WITH A .44 OR SO CAL BULLET THAT WAS NOT TO HEAVY FOR CASE CAPACITY. IMO A 240 AN 265 GRAIN BULLET IS A BETTER WAY TO GO THAN A HEAIVER 458 OR 50 CAL BULLET. YOUR GOING TO HAVE FLATTER TRAJECTROY AN LESS RECOIL AN MORE SPEED WITH A 240 GRAIN ROUND AN ITS GOING TO KILL ANY THING IT HITS. I DONT RECALL THE BULLET WEIGHTS OF 458 SOCM AN 50 BW BUT THERE A LOT MORE. IMO ID RATHER HAVE THE BETTER RANGE AN FLATER SHOOTING AN LESS RECOIL. THE 450 BUSHMASTER WOULD BE GOOD ALSO IF AMMO , BRASS REAMERS AN BETTER BULLETS WERE OUT THERE. IF THEY MADE A GOOD .430 RIFLE TYPE BULLET THE 444???? OR SOME THING LIKE IT WOULD BE A BETTER ROUND. IM SURE THE LEVERLUTION BULLET IS GOOD BUT A DEDICATED BULLET MADE FOR NONE TUBE FEED GUNS WOULD REALLY MAKE THE CALIBURE A GREAT RIFLE ROUND. THE 444 MARLIN IS A GOOD ROUND IN A LEVER GUN IT COULD BE A GREAT ROUND IN A BOLT ACTION OR AUTO IF THERE WERE MORE BULLETS MADE. THE 444 MARLIN BASICALY USES A 44 MAG BULLET. A TOUGHTR HARDER RILFE VERSION WOULD BE SWEET FOR THE INCREASD SPPEDS OF THE 444 MARLIN AN OTHER STUFF WE COLD THINK UP.
i STARTED TO LOOK INTO CUSTOM BULLETS OR MAKINGTHEM WIHT COPPER JACKETS OR EVEN SOFT POINTS AN ITS DOABLE.
THE 41AN EVEN THE 375 STUFF IS PRETTY INTERESTING AS WELL AN A 41 VARIAANT COULD LIKEY BE BETTER IN A AUTO . IT WOULD HED SPACE OFF THE SHOULDER AN ALSO POSSABLU BE MORE ACCURATE DO TO THIS , CASE LENGTH WOULD BE LESS OF A FACTOR AS YO WOULD NOT NEED TO TRIM AS MUCH LIKE A CASE MOUTH HEAD SPACED ROUND.
IMO THE 458SOCM 50 BEO IS KIND OF A BIG DICK THING TO MANY. A SMALLER BULLET GOING FASTER AN FLATTER BUT STILL A BIG BORE MIGHT BE A BETTER SOLUTION ESPECUALY WHEN FACTOR IN THERE IS ONLY ABOUT 30 GRAINS OF POWDER PUSHING IT. IMO ANY BULLET .35 CAL AN UP GOING OVER 2000 FPS IS GOING TO MAKE A MESS OF WHAT EVER IT HITS. i HAVEN SEEN TO MANY WILD ELEPAHNTS OR WATER BUFFALO IN NORTH AMERICA BUT I HAVE SEEN SOME 300 YARD SHOTS SO IMO LOOSING THE WEIGHT IS NOT A ISSUE ESPCIALY IN AK WERE RECOIL IS GOING TO REALLY FACTOR IN ON GETTING A FOLLOW UP SHOT ON TARGET. THE WHOLE POINT OF A SEMI AUTO BIG BORE IS TO BE ABLE TO HAVE MORE THAN ONE SHOT. I KEEP ASKING OK AT WHAT POINT IS A BULLET BIG ENOUGH HEAVY ENOUGH TO KILL WHAT EVER IM HOLDING THE GUN FOR. I JUST DONT SEE ANY REAL WORLD ADVANTAGES OVER A 458 OR A .50 IF THE BULLET SELECTION WAS THERE.
IN MY MIND THE 458 IS A BETTTER CHOICE ONLY DO TO THE RIFLE BULLETS . AN THAT ONLY VALID IF THOSE BULLETS ARE GOING TO WORK AT SLOWER SPPEDSD A 1.5" CASE IS GOING TO GIVE YOU. A BULLET FOR A 458 WIN MAG IS NOT LIKELY GOING TO BE GREAT AT 1800 FPS OUT OF A 16' AK BARREL.
I HAVENT SHOT A LOT OF LEAD AN DONT KNOW WHAT THE MAX SPPED YOU CAN RUN A 44,45, 50 LEAD BULLET WITH OUT FOULING. IT DOES SEEM TO WORRY ME THAT A AK WITH A BIG MAG SHOOTING LEAD FAST AN HOT IS GOING TO BE A PAIN IN THE ASS.
THERE ARE SOME 41-444 ROUNDS AN OTHER STUFF NECKED DOWN TO 41 OR 375. I CHOOSE THE 44 BECAUSE THERE ARE A FEW CHEAPER BLANKS AN BARRELS OUT THERE AN AT LEAST A VERY GOOD PISTOL BULLET SELECTION. DONT FORGET THE 44 MAG IS A PRETTY POTENT ROUND OUT OF A RIFLE ANY WAY AN IF IT WOULD FEED WOULD BE GOOD AS IS. I WANTED A GREAT ROUND AN A BETTER BULLET WOULD MAKE THAT HAPPEN . THE HORNADY LEVERLUTION BULLET GIVES A LOT OF ADVANTAGE TO THIS IDEA. THE 375 WOUD LIKEY BE A LOT EASIER TO FEED INTOTHE BARREL FORM A MAG .
ONCE I GET MY 6MM BR VARINAT WORKING i MAY GO BACK AN LOOK AT THIS PROJECT SOME MORE AS ILL HAVE ALOT OF 308 AN 30-06 BRASS LAYING AROUND.
KEEP IN MIND 30-06, 270, 8MM MAUSER LENGTH BRASS WOULD BE BETTER AS YOU WOULD NOT HAVE TO STRAIGHTEN THE SHOULDER FOR A APROX 1.80 CASE BUT
7.62 X51 COULD EASLY BE STRAGHTNED OUT WITH A MANDERAL OR FIRE FORMED. 7.62 BRASS IS A LOT CHEAPER TO GET ONCE FIRED. iM SURE A TAPERED MADREL WOULD ALLOW YOU TO USE 7.62X51 BRASS. IT MIGHT LOOK A LITTLE FUNNY UNTILL FIRED.
1biggun
12-04-2012
http://www.gunco.net/forums/f244/44-37230/index15.html LINK 404
THIS IS THE SECTION OF WERE WE WERE TRYING TO CALCULATE SPEEDS AN I NOW FEEL THAT THE NUMBERS MIGHT BE A LITTLE FAST. HOW EVER IM SURE ARE NUMBERS ARE CLOSE AN WE WERE FACTORING IN A A PRETTY LOW PRESSURE
MY GUT IS TELLING ME THAT THE BULLET IS GOING TO TAKE UP A LOT OF THE CASE CAPACITY. tHIS IS ALSO WHY THE PROJECT WNT ON HOLD TO WAIT HFROT HE 265 GRAIN BULLETS TO COME OUT. I MAY ORDER A BOX( I REALLY NEED A 44 MAG TO SHOOT UP ALL THIS STUFF IF THE AK DONT HAPPEN) OF THE HEAVISET LEVER LUTION BULLETS IN 44 AN SEE WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE. iD WANT THE MAX CASE LENGTH WITH THOSE BULLETS WITH A OPTIMUM SEATING POSITION. IF THRE IS A CANALURE ID WANT TO BE ABLE TO CRIMP ON IT WITH ABOUT .010 OF TIP CLEARANCE IN WHAT EVER MAG BEING USED. .
THE LOADED ROUND WILL DICTATE THE THE CHAMBER. THE FREE BORE IS ALSO IMPORTANT AN NEEDS TO BE CONSIDERED AN YOU NEED THE LONGEST BULLETS FOR THAT.
1biggun
12-04-2012
LINK>http://www.gunco.net/forums/f244/44-37230/index15.html THIS IS THE SECTION OF WERE WE WERE TRYING TO CALCULATE SPEEDS AN I NOW FEEL THAT THE NUMBERS MIGHT BE A LITTLE FAST. HOW EVER IM SURE ARE NUMBERS ARE CLOSE AN WE WERE FACTORING IN A A PRETTY LOW PRESSURE
MY GUT IS TELLING ME THAT THE BULLET IS GOING TO TAKE UP A LOT OF THE CASE CAPACITY. tHIS IS ALSO WHY THE PROJECT WNT ON HOLD TO WAIT HFROT HE 265 GRAIN BULLETS TO COME OUT. I MAY ORDER A BOX( I REALLY NEED A 44 MAG TO SHOOT UP ALL THIS STUFF IF THE AK DONT HAPPEN) OF THE HEAVISET LEVER LUTION BULLETS IN 44 AN SEE WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE. iD WANT THE MAX CASE LENGTH WITH THOSE BULLETS WITH A OPTIMUM SEATING POSITION. IF THRE IS A CANALURE ID WANT TO BE ABLE TO CRIMP ON IT WITH ABOUT .010 OF TIP CLEARANCE IN WHAT EVER MAG BEING USED. .
THE LOADED ROUND WILL DICTATE THE THE CHAMBER. THE FREE BORE IS ALSO IMPORTANT AN NEEDS TO BE CONSIDERED AN YOU NEED THE LONGEST BULLETS FOR THAT.
moleman
12-04-2012
Does anyone have the quickload software? It does a pretty good job of figuring out the pressure curve and muzzle velocity. Some versions of it even have a case designing feature.
hcpookie
12-05-2012
I've been meaning to buy that software. $150 doesn't seem too bad at all. All their addon stuff seems a bit pricey - $52 to convert from floppy to CD!
Looking again at their shopping cart, it seems that while QuickLoad is able to use Wildcat data, there seems to be a limitation because their QuickDesign software is purpose-built for making a wildcat, plugging in numbers, and importing it into QuickLoad. So since they have a purpose-built software for another $150, I am wondering what the difference really is.
Edit - WOWSA - you have to pay for every update! "Latest update 17 Nov 2012" = $15.95
moleman
12-05-2012
I'll agree that it isn't what I'd call cheap for a program, but if you're designing a cartridge it will quickly pay for itself with savings in reloading componets and take a little bit of the pucker factor out of it. The program is on my santa list so we'll see if I've been good or not. Here's one done for me on the 357AR as an example. You do have to get the information correct. I had someone else work up some loads but gave him the wrong H2o capacity of the un fireformed (smaller capacity) case by mistake. They were showing higher pressure than what I was actually getting, so we had to go back and do some headscratching and figure out where I'd made a mistake.
twa2471
12-05-2012
I got here to this post late, and may have missed it while reading, but did you try the 300 gr cast 45ACP, run through a bullet sizer to 44??? Fairly long bullet,but not to long, round nosed,,,,maybe even a swc 300gr????? Duno, unless I missed something about your choice of bullets ,,,it might be an option for plinking,, maybe more,,,hard alloy for hunting???? HUMMMM???? Possibly Just a thought.
1biggun
12-05-2012
I got here to this post late, and may have missed it while reading, but did you try the 300 gr cast 45ACP, run through a bullet sizer to 44??? Fairly long bullet,but not to long, round nosed,,,,maybe even a swc 300gr????? Duno, unless I missed something about your choice of bullets ,,,it might be an option for plinking,, maybe more,,,hard alloy for hunting???? HUMMMM???? Possibly Just a thought.
THE GUN HAS NEVER BEEN BUILT( BY ME AT LEAST). iM NOT SURE IF GUNTER EVER CONTINUED ON OR NOT. I GOT SIDE TRACKED BACK IN 09 WHEN OBAMA GOT RELECTED AN BY THE INFLUX OF 7.62X25 AMMO. EVERY ONE WANTED A BARREL THEN.
A LEAD BULLET SWEDEGED TO FIT MIGHT BE OK OR BETTER YET MODIFY A MOLD TO GIVE A POINTED BULLET.
I DOUBT YOU WILL GET A POINTED LEAD BULLET IN THE BARREL FROM A MAG WITH OUT SOME SERIOUS TIP DEFORMATION.
LEAD MAY WORK OUT OF A GUN LIKE THIS BUT LIKE i SAID EARLIER IF IM GOING TO SHOOT LEAD AN PLINK ID JUST BUILD A 45 AUTO. THE BRASS FOR THIS IS GOING TO BE TIME CONSUMING TO MAKE AN EXPENSIVE VS A PISTOL ROUND. ID LIKELY BE DOING VERY LITTEL PLINKING . YEA YOU CAN RELOAD THE BRASS ONCE ITS MADE IF YOU CAN FIND IT. ALSO YOU WOULD NEED A REALLY BIG PORT TO SHOOT LOWER PRESSURE LOADS AN THEN UNLESS YOU HAVE A ADJUSTABLE PORT YOUR GOING TO HAMMER THE REAR TRUNION WITH HIGH POWER LOADS.
ORIGANLY MY 444???? WAS GOING TO BE A AK PISTOL FOR DEER HUNTING IN HEAVY COVER .
WITH THE PRICE OF KITS THESE DAYS ID REALLY CONSIDER A SAGIA 410 AN A RIFLED BARREL WITH 2.5 INCH BRASS HULLS LODED WITH THE BULLET/SLUG EXTENDED LIKE A RIFLE ROUND. IT LIKELY WOULD BE A BARREL ONLY SWAP AN USE SAGIA 3" MAGS.
IM LOOKING AT THE 444???? AS A CANIDATE ON A SMALL RING MAUSER ALSO LIKELY WLL JUST BUILD A 444RIMLESS FOR IT IF i DO ANYTHING AS IT WILL FEED BETTER.
OR MAYBE ONE OF THOSE RINELANDER 45ACP CONVERSIONS.
1biggun
12-05-2012
HMMM MAYBE IM OFF BASE AFTER LOOKIG AT A FEW SITES IT SEEMS THAT 444 MARLIN GUYS ARE SHOOTING LEAD PRETTY FAST.. AROUND 1600 FPS . THAT STILL SLOWER THAN MY PROJECTED NUMBERS BUT IF YOU COULD USE A 300 + GRAIN LEAD BULLET THEN YOU COULD GET THE PRESSURES UP TO MAKE CYCLING NOT A ISSUE. A CAST BULLET ON DEEER IS FINE IF i CAN MAKE IT FEED WITH OUT DAMAGAE AN ITS GOING FST ENOUGH.
A CUSTOM MOLD WITH A POINTED BULLET WOULD BE DOABLE AN IT WOULD LIKELY AD SOME WEIGHT TO.
OK SO WHAT IS A SAFE SPEED FOR CAST LEAD BULLETS IN .430 OUT OF A 18" BARREL WITH OUT SPECAL MIXTURES OF LEADAN ???? WITH OUT FOULING ISSUES???????? IM NOT A BULLET MAKER YET AN DONT KNOW A LOT ABOUT WHAT YOU CAN GT AWAY WITH
TRX
12-05-2012
My old cast bullet loading book has a chapter on high velocity cast bullets, ie .30 caliber at 2500 fps or so. The trick seemed to be finding a a lube that worked with your particular barrel.
Or you could buy 350 or 400 grain jacketed bullets; some of the boutique bullet makers do them for the .444 Marlin guys.
hcpookie
02-05-2012
About the leading question - I've recently been doing some research with lead-only and started shooting it in my pistols... both .40 SW and .45 ACP. Obviously much lighter loads than the .44 GS (Gunco Special) will yield
The trick to reduce fouling seems to be to use the correct lube and loads. In other words if you're leading your barrel you're doing it wrong. I think there are limits and gas checks apparently help as well. Also the casting forumla - using pure lead will lead faster vs. an alloy such as wheel weights. Mixing some solder into a pot of pure lead will provide enough tin content to make a good alloy. I just use wheel weights
My dad suggested a way to reduce leading would be to mix jacketed bullets in with the cast, so perhaps 1 jacket following 4-5 cast would help eliminate leading. I might try that too... depends on how much leading I get using just the cast bullets. HOWEVER since all my autoloading pistols seem to function fine with the cast bullets it will definitely be casting more since it is so much cheaper!
There are tons of high-power rifle loads that use only cast bullets. I'd like to pick up the Lee cast bullet reloading manual so I can get a handle on some better loads... should have some good info in there. The Cast Boolits forum also has a plethora of information.
There about about as many bullet lube recipes as there are reloading recipes. After going through a few of the $5.00 sticks I can see why! Up on the Cast Boolit forum, there are a few more popular lubes. One of the most popular is a "green" lube (forget the nickname) that is simply parafin wax and synthetic 2-stroke engine oil. Amsoil or something like that. I'm going to the local craft/candle shop to see how cheaply I can get a pile of candles and make my own!
hcpookie
12-06-2012
Speed green lube = 3:1 ratio:
- Bees wax (parafin wax) = 3x
- Amsoil synthetic marine 2 stroke injector oil = 1x
- Add 15% wax (carnuba or otherwise) to harden if too sticky...
moleman
12-07-2012
Hadn't heard of the 2 cycle oil/bees wax lube, Thanks HC. I have some bees wax on the way to try the 50/50 bees wax/molly ep grease lube that Mauser1959 linked to a while back. I also dust the lubed bullets with motor mica to keep them from being as sticky and for additional lube.
1biggun
12-07-2012
SO HOW FAST CAN LEAD BE PUSHED IN A RIFLE LENGTH BARREL?????? IM ALSO WONDERING ABOUT PORT FOULING AS WELL.
hcpookie
12-07-2012
How fast can only be answered in reloading manuals and the cast boolits forum. I'm looking at possible 6.5x55 loads. Rifle loads seem to be more common than I ever considered when I started reloading.
That lube is referred to as "Speed Green" lube on the cast boolits forum and is designed for higher velocity loads.
1biggun
12-08-2012
I HAVE WAY TO MANY PROJECTS GOING ON TO START MESSING WITH LEAD RIGHT NOW. I KNOW A GUY WHO HAS ALL THE ANSWERES AN MAKES THOUSANDS OF BULLETS A MONTH HIS SHOP IS AMAZING iD SEEK HIS WISDOM OUT IF i EVER START TO GET INTO IT. I KEEP COLLECTING LEAD AN WILL DO IT SOME DAY. ID LKE TO SHOOT MY PISTOLS MORE ESPECIALY THE 9MM AN 357 SO iT WOULD BE A WORTH WHILE INVESTMENT BUT NOT RIGHT NOW.
IM SURE IF YOU CAN GET THE ROUND INTO THE BARREL WITH OUT DAMAGING THE BULLET LEAD IN A 444 AK WOULD WORK GREAT.
LIKE YOU SAID THERE IS A TON OF INO ON THE NET ABOUT CAST LEAD BULLETS.
moleman
12-08-2012
My 444 has the micro groove rifling which isn't supposed to be great for cast bullets, so I haven't tried. With straight wheel weights and alox lube I get no leading in my 44 mag on a 240gr LSWC at 1300fps which is slower than you're wanting to go.
1biggun
12-09-2012
UNLESS BULLET WEIGHTS ARE INCREASED AS SPEEDS ARE DROPPED YOUR GOING TO NEED A BIGGER PORT TO ALLOW CYCLING THIS MAY BE MORE FOUL PRONE. NOT REALLY SURE BUT ITS WORTH MENTIONING.
moleman
12-09-2012
Another thing to bring up is port location. The big bore diameter is going to mean the pressure spikes and drops off alot faster than a 7.62x39 round. I was surprised on my 357AR build that I needed a .090" gas port on a 17" barrel with a carbine length gas tube, especially since the round has 60k psi chamber pressure. I worked the gas port up slowly every few thousands and around .090" is what the minimum that it takes to cycle the action. Looking at a quickshot graph of a 223 and the 357AR showed that while both started out with the same psi, the 357 had a much sharper dropp off than the 223. On my next barrel I will try a pistol length gas system to see if I can keep the gas port diameter a bit smaller. Of course on the AK platform you're not restricted to a .116"ish gas tube (which really seems to top off nearer to .100" on the ar) and can go with a larger port diameter.
12-09-2012
Interesting. I wish there were more data on port placement an port size gs barrel length an pressure
moleman
12-10-2012
I found a couple quickloads for a similar round, 1.850" case length, 2.350" C.O.A.L. based off of 30-06 brass. The 300gr .44 xtp was going around 2200fps at 60kpsi. IDK if you want to push them that hard in an ak, maybe drop the psi down a bit since the bolt thrust would be more than the x39. The pressure graph on them was in time which makes the pressure spike seem more gentle/vs the more useful barrel length which is good for port placement. Look at other big bores built on the ak action and you should get a good idea on where to place the gas port.
1biggun
12-10-2012
I'd want to run the pressure about 48,000 PSI. The speed you quote are about what I figured based on rough guesses. My initial estimates were based on a 240 grain bullet. if I ever buy a reamer for this. This round might be a good candidate for that little Spanish Mauser I have.
1biggun
07-04-2013
I have been thinking more an more about this now that the screw in barrel build is getting closer to being ready to build .
I wish I had not turned my barrel stub for a press fit i could have used it on the threaded trunion mole man is doing for me.
I could likely just use it on my 6mm BRX variant ( I really need to name that thing ) as is . I wish I had a spare trunion to stick it in .
Has any one heard from or know Gunter ? I havent seen him post in a few years I wonder if he ever got his version running ?
moleman
07-05-2013
Nope, It looks like he was last active 4 1/2 years ago.
07-06-2013
yEA HE SORT OF GOT REAL PRIVATE AFTER THE FIRST ELECTION AN GUN LAW SCARE . I KNOW HE WAS PRETTY SERIOUS ON GETTING IT DONE . WE PUT A LOT OF THOUGHT INTO THIS .
I KEEP thinking I can cut this chamber with a boring bar . how hard is it to bore in at the correct angle about 1.800 " an then throat it ?
With the ,470 bolt face it need to gewt done so I can use one on the screw in barrel build , the same bot would work for the 6mm BRX varaint .
Im kind of thinking a 22 BR< 6mm BRX an a 44???? or 458 socom barrel set for the same bolt would be cool . then I could use it on pretty much any thing in north america .
might tbe better if it was a 22-250, 243 , 308 an 444 rimless on a three lug Saiga
1biggun
08-08-2013
Moleman was mentioned he could likely do a reamer for this . I have been thinking .
it would be nice if a chamber reamer an a sizing die reamer were avaliable then dies could be made for this for others who might want to mess with a cheap to do big bore .
after my 6mm brx variant any wildcat I do again is going to have a reamer made an the round is going to be makeable in 5 steps or less . .
This is going on the way back burner for now but there will be a 44 cal ak of some kind at some point.
a reamer that did everything including the free bore would certainly save a lot of time an money especially if multiple barrels are made .
moleman
08-08-2013
1biggun, I have done sizing die reamers and dies as well. They aren't hard to do, just like a lot of stuff...tedious and time consuming. I'm way behind where I thought I'd be on builds by this time, but If you can get me two reamer blanks turned and polished for the chamber reamer and another two for the sizing die out of O1, I will flute and harden them for you. That would give you a kick in the pants to get this monster finished.
Now for the 6mmbrx. Would a set of bushing dies help form them from 308? I made a set for a 6mm wildcat that had a 223 parent case. It had a shorter case and a different shoulder angle. I ended up making several bushing that formed the shoulder and neck in steps, and then a final one for sizing. The dies aren't hard to make, but do require a lot of time. If you can thread on your lathe you can make them, or you can get a die blank or use good quality all thread.
hcpookie
08-09-2013
If you have a sizing reamer, you can send it to Hornady and they'll do the dies for you. Did that with my 9x39 die set... had the reamer done at Pacific then sent it to Hornady.
1biggun
08-10-2013
On mY 6mm BRX variant I cut brass in a saw an then use a 308x1.5 barnes trim die held .120 off the shell holder trim to length in a forster trimmer then size down to 7mm BR with a .110 spacer then I size down to a 6mmBR with a .100 spacet ,I then inside ream while in the trim die I then run it into a 6mmbr FL die with a .100" spacer to finish it an retrim length if needed . It a lot of steps .
In a 444 Id like to form die made from a chamber reamer then inside ream while in that die an then FL size in separate die like normal an also use that die for relaoding made brass .
I have a few builds giong an the screw in barrel gun will get done first an then Ill start thinking of big bore.
Honestly since one of the screw barrel guns will be a 308 length mag well I may just go with a rimless 444 an skip the little 444??? for right now .
I have also been thinking instead of a full length 444 marlin rimless why not just make the bass a little shorter an use blow out 308 cases ..It should be a lot easier to aneal an run a manderal in a 308 case vs cutting 30-60 cases down then having to inside ream an then final trim IMO also 308 / 7.62x51 are cheaper an easier to find .
might be able to just fire form 308 cases rigt in a 44-308 chamber ?
moleman
08-10-2013
For the 444-Biggun, I'd just make a couple expanding arbors like I posted in reply #171. You have to anneal the case, but they worked great on 223 to 357 and they should do even better on 30 to 429. If you cut them off at the shoulder you may be able to get away without annealing, although I still would. I didn't have good luck fire forming when I expanded the neck and left the case hour glass shaped. A full power 357 mag load did not expand the hourglass shape from the case. I started with wax, but ened up using real bullets as the wax was messy and wasn't letting the pressure build up enough. It took a 357max load to iron it out. I think it was because the case the pressure drops off so fast in a straight walled case v/s a bottle neck. The two expanders opened up the case enough that I was able to load a hotter 357 max load as a starting load. Then once fire formed, I was able to step up to 357AR pressures. I also found that the shoulder which was now the case mouth was all over the place as far as thickness went. Some were under my target .010" thickness, and some were thick enough to prevent them from chambering. I think the reaming approach will really pay off. I lathe turn mine and that is a PITA. I just may have to make up a case reamer for it.
1biggun
08-11-2013
iD LIKE OT KEEP THE ORIGINAL SHOULDER ON A 308 BASED CASE THAT WAY i SHOULD NOT HAVE TO INSIDE REAM . 3O8 IS ABOUT .016 AT THE CASE MUHT SO HEAD SPACING OF IT SHOULD BE DOABLE . yOU HAVE A LITTLE OWRE TO WORK WIH ON 308 VS 223 . iD TRY TO RUN ABOUT .003 NECK CLEARANCE .
A EXPANDING MANDERAL WOULD WORK AN HTE CASE NEEDS TO BE STRAIGHTENED OUT AS FAR DOWN AS POSSABLE ANY WAY SO IT DOSENT HAVE A HOUR GLASS LOOK TO IT .
iM NOT WORRIED ABOUT HE HOUR GLASS AS IT WILL BLOW OUT ON FIRING A LIVE ROUND BUT IT WULD BE NICE TO BE ABLE TO GET I CLOSE INITALY .
SIINCE IM DOING A 308 LENGHT MAG WELL ON ONE OF THE SCREW BARREL GUNS i MIGHT AS WELL GO BIG ON ROUND . A 444???? LIKLEY COULD STILL BE DONE WITH THE SAME REAMER THERE IS VERY LITTLE TAPER HERE . A SHORT VERSION MIGHT NEED TO HAVE A SMALLER BASE DIE MAYBE .
A 444 MARLIN DIE MIGHT WORK ON A 308 CASE VERSION AS IS. I NEED TO GO BACK NA LOOK AT HE SPECS ITS BEEN A FEW YEARS .
IF I DONT HAVE TO CUT BRASS AN REAM THIS PROJECT IS MORE LIKLEY TO HAPPEN . IT WOULD BE NICE TO MANDERAL EXPAND, FL SIZE AN THEN TRIM AN LOAD .
TRX
09-15-2013
A friend called yesterday, he'd just come out with a new cartridge - take a 7.62x39, expand/blow it out straight, and use a .429" bullet.
Hmm...
1biggun
09-15-2013
So it has a .005" thick neck ? Thats notg oing to work out well. the case head is .440 if he blows it straight an sets in a.430 bullet he has a neck of .005" or the round gets bigger in the front ?
is he using a bullet with a smaller base were it seats like a 22 lr or a old black powder round ? I have considered that but why ?
A zero taper case is not going to feed an extract very well IMO . Hell Im worried about the lack of case taper on this . an it has a .470 case head.
then you got the issue of the case capacity being to small for good performance even if you could make the round . the x39 is about 1.52" long the 444 is about 1.80 or so depending on the bullet you select an how you wish to seat it . the case is going to have about 10 grains or more capacity at least .
the round round would maybe be workable with a 40 or 41 cal bullet . I dont see it working out well with a .430 ( 44) bullet . is there any links or proof of this creation working ?
TRX
09-20-2013
Originally Posted by 1biggun:
is there any links or proof of this creation working ?
I think it's a "concept." I was just glad the Voices weren't babbling at me for a change...
Looks like .012-.015 is common for case neck thickness. Yes, that would be a peculiar looking cartridge when loaded... I'll let him know next time I talk to him.
I'm still thinking a .44 AMP die set and reamer with .308 brass is the way to go. The AMP brass is inside-reamed to get the bullet to seat, since the brass gets thick midway down on a .308. Depending on where you cut it off, you might be able to skip the reaming step; just shorten the brass and go for it. Which is good, since the RCBS forming/reaming set is rather expensive. You can still pick up Hornady .44AMP reloading die sets for $60 or so.
1biggun
09-20-2013
Id have no issue making brass with 44 marlin dies an few other things . yes the neck would be thick . Im not sure it would be a issue how ever an a thing neck would help for head spacing off .
you sure the hell are not going to want to head space on a .005 think neck whne you need a rpound .003 or more clerance .
the 44 AMP might be a option Id have to look at it .
unless a you use a bullet with a smaller base than the bullet like on a old BP load or a 22 lr I dont see a x39 case working .
now a 41 cal bullet might work out an be really doable . might even make a really cool revolver round
1biggun
10-25-2013
I have been looking more at getting this back off the ground . I plan on keeping the thick brass at the case mouth for a better head space stop . I am also thinking of reducing the case length to 1.80 vs 1.830 to give a little more room for pointed bullets or long heavy cast bullets .
I want this to be a not ream or neck turn deal were all you do is cut an trim to size case expand an load . im using remington brass an I need to make sure other brands of brass will still fit the chamber. so I need to get a hold of some varius 30-06 or simualr rounds cut them doan an see how they are at the 1.80 mark .
If any one has any un needed various brand 30-06 brass Id be happy to put it to good use moving this project forward . Im particularity interested in a few military cases to cut an measure .
I could just make the chamber perfect for Rem brass an just stick with it . its avaliable new an used . It would be ice I I could use any 30-06, 270. 8mm type case an not be to tight .
it still going to be a while . Its looking like ll be getting some help for a meamber here but Id like ot finish the last thing he helped me on . LOL the screw in a barrel build will get a 444??? barrel at some point .
If any one has any 44 cal Hornady 365 grain leverlution bullets I could really use a couple to finalize over all case length an loaded length. or if they can give me a meaurement from the canalure groove tot he tip ( if even has a groove ) .
MY goal is to have this round fit a 223 ak an ar mag perfecty an give maximum capacity it can wiht the longest bullets reasonable to use .
TRX
06-22-2014
A thread about a similar cartridge over on go2gbo.com:
.429-06 ?
1biggun
06-22-2014
I have seen that thread . several guys including Ken howell who makes conversion cylinders for cap an ball revolvers has made versions of a 444 rimless or a 444-306 .
Ill get it done some day. Im not in a hurry I have lots of other projects first . the barrel is still sitting here ani sort of recall how I made this live round that in the box with it .
I have considered a wrist brace equipped pistol in a big bore more an more for hunting
I keep thinking about a 45-70 rimless on blown straight 284 win brass also . I have no real need to keep the case short the AK is not mag well restricted like a AR
1biggun
11-07-2014
The 45 raptor brass would be almost perfect for the 444 IMO it would give some IMO much needed taper over the 45 as well. the cases would be about the right thickness also .
I have been thinking more an more about getting this round done .
moleman
04-26-2015
A chamber reamer in 444-1BG that headspaces on the case mouth exists! Still have to make a set of HS gauges and chamber a barrel.
hvymax
04-27-2015
How's this compare to the 460S&W?
moleman
04-27-2015
It's rimless and meets MI DNR max case length for a straight walled pistol cartridge in a rifle, and I already own 44 pistols and a 444 rifle so I already have componets are it's main advantages. Here's a few QL work ups at varying PSI. I based the QL guestimate off of the 44 automag with a lengthened case and increased case capacity.I likely will stick under 45kpsi in my first build which will be on a 1891 mauser action.
1biggun
04-27-2015
How's this compare to the 460S&W?
If you want a rimless 460 look at the 45 Raptor made on special starline brass at a buck a case . it uses 460 dies an some load data .
the 444-1bG uses cut 30-06 cases or similar for about 25 cents an runs a little bit lighter bullet faster . this will mean less drop at the ranges its good for . any thing that gets hit with a 265 grain bullet at the speeds this will run is going to have a bad day . It will have a bit less recoil
the 444-1bg has more case taper an will IMO feed an cycle better . the 460 an 45 raptor are basically straight .
This round is not trying to win a big dick contest its designed to get the most out of the space limitations of case that can fit in a AK or AR mag well an also meet MI an other states hunting regs . this round could be ran in a AR if it is loaded to safe power levels a 460 S&W round would be way to much pressure an the rimless 45 raptor is designed for 308 ARS .
IMO the 45 an 500 bullet choices are to heavy for the power capacity of a 1.80 long round unless you bigger OD an then you run into no really cheap available guns . to shoot it in . the 444-1BG can be ran in any bolt action that can shoot 309 270 30-06 243 ect . A savage axis would be a good starting point for a MI deer rifle an would handle loads of 65,000 PSI
Mole mans reamer can also cut a chamber deeper an if your not building a AK or hunting in Michigan a longer version that would be basically a 444 marlin rimless ( my original plan ) is very doable on a bolt action or a AK that's basical set up for 308 mags . A longer version would dust any 45raptor , 458 socom , 500 bewoulf as far as trajectory speed an energy.
444 marlin is only at 45,000 PSI if that same round was ran at 60,000 05 65 in a bolt gun it well up in 45-70 power levels but shooting flatter .
this round was original designed for AK,s with the AR an bolt actions as a possibility .
to run it in a AR your going to need a bolt that will handel a .470 rim like a 6mmBR bolt OR you could rebate the cases like some 6mm br shooters do in there ARs . In a AK I would load this round to about 50,000 PSI however a bit less does not really loose a lot of performance . Mole man has run a bunch of different combos on his program .
the trajectory of this round is pretty good to 200 yards were a big bore hunting round is generally used .
Mole man the reamer looks great . I cant wait to see that bolt action up an running .
moleman
04-27-2015
Yep, those were my reasons for wanting one, 1BG has been looking at the cartridge a lot longer than I have and has a longer list. I did make the reamer longer so that a chamber for a case length of 2.25" can be cut (including the .125" the case sticks out of the chamber. I'm in a shotgun zone, but the DNR decided last year that straight walled pistol cases at least .35" dia and between 1.2 and 1.8" could be used also. If longer cases were allowed I'd go as long longer in the mauser build or just use my 444 marlin.
1biggun
04-27-2015
A 240 grain bullet going almost 2500 FPS
delivering 3200 pounds of energy will do some damage.
Thats 100 grains of lead more than a 7.62x39 going the same speed.
