44 -06 1.8"
Retrieved: 06/17/2016, 10/07/2016
Last Post: 06/19/2016
In Michigan half of the state is deemed to be shotgun only for deer hunting. This year a bill was passed to allow certain rifle cartridges to also be used.
They must be, straight walled, greater than 35 caliber with no max, a minimum 1.16" and max of 1.8". These rules were loosely based on Indiana's rifle rules with the addition of straight wall as a requirement.
I am thinking of a 30-06, 308 etc expanded to 44 cal, trimmed to 1.79", and headspace off the case mouth.
I had it suggested to use a cut off 444 Marlin case, however 444 brass is hard to find and 30-06, 308 brass is widely available. I want to use a bolt action (Rem 700), the 444 rim would require bolt work likely including a new extractor.
In internet searches I have found similar at lengths equal to 308, 444, and 30-06 but not shorter, other than real short - an Auto Mag.
I made a couple of dummy rounds and they feed slick through my standard 308 until they jam in the chamber. I use -06 brass as it can be cut off below the shoulder for minimum expanding.
As a guess to performance 300 grains at 2000, estimated from 445 and 444 data.
Goals-
Available brass
44 cal (I have 1000s of bullets)
Bolt gun with minimum action work
MI legal in shotgun area (I have a friend with a farm)
Has anyone tried something like this?
boom stick
27 May 2014
240 Weatherby cut to 1.8" necked to 44 cal bullets with a bit of neck reaming should be a good option but does not fit the easy to obtain at the local shop brass criteria. Have you considered a shortened 45-70?
dpcd
27 May 2014
There is already a suitable cartridge meeting your criteria; the 45-60 WCF, and you can get Model 76s for it. Case length is 1.89. Otherwise, no reason you couldn't make your 44 wildcat. Oh, I see you have to have a bolt; then go for your wildcat. Use 444 dies.
Mark Clark
27 May 2014
The rim diameter on both 45-70 and 45-60 is a bit large for most bolt actions
As for dies I was going to try the 444 and if they do not size the case enough try 308 or -06 dies and run the case in until I get the results I need
dpcd
27 May 2014
That will work; Interesting round for a specific purpose. You could load it up to high pressure too. For bolt actions, I reduce the rim diameter of 45-70s to make them feed. No need though; for a bolt action, your rimless idea is better. I would like to experiment with this round....
boom stick
28 May 2014
The 25-35 necked up to 35 and cut back to 1.8 would be great for these restrictions. Put some new life in a 30-30 via rebarrel and load out to 2.55". They said "Straight walled" but nothing about taper or perpendicular. These guys who pass the laws are clueless idiots.
dpcd
28 May 2014
I am building that rifle as we speak; I have a barrel on order and will put it on a 98 action. I am calling it the 444 Michigan. I am pretty sure I can get 444 Marlin velocities out if it with bolt action pressure (50K psi). It has 81% of the 444 Marlin's powder capacity but that can be made up for with higher pressure. Best thing, as you said, brass is almost free.
Here it is; 240 grain bullet; 40 grains of 4198. It feeds perfectly from a 98 Mauser. Brass is LC90. It was easy to neck up in one step.
boom stick
28 May 2014
Perhaps a 1.8" 240 WBY or 220 swift with 300 grain .423 bullets would be good. That would be straight perpendicular walls with a belt or semi rim to headspace on. Call it the 404 error lol
dpcd
29 May 2014
As the OP suggested, one of the design criteria has to be that of readily available brass, which the Wby and 220, ain't. The cut down 308s will headspace fine on the case mouth.
boom stick
29 May 2014
Well if those are hard to get perhaps a super size option of chopping win mag brass to 1.8 and stuffing with 458 bullets. The 375 HH has enough taper to trim and stuff without trouble. Win mag brass and 45-70 bullets are pretty common.
dpcd
29 May 2014
Yep, that would work well; instead of a 458x2 inch, it would be a 458x1.8 inch. Essentially a belted 45-60.
boom stick
29 May 2014
Could be a fun 28 gauge bolt action slug gun if you do not mind using 460 WBY brass. WSSM, WSM or single shot action. Cheap bullets and brass would last forever. Should get nominal 28 gauge performance if loaded out enough. Get it classified as a shotgun cart but if you do not want to deal with the over .5" issue Michael458 has a sweet cart called the 50 super short that I just love that will fill this niche quite well.
Mark Clark
29 May 2014
I called Manson and ordered a reamer today. Now I am committed, or should be committed.
I am thinking a 20" barrel, mostly for appearance rather than function.
I have a nearly done 28 gauge on 460 cases, a 550 Express. I think it would have plenty of knock down for deer.
dpcd
29 May 2014
I recommend that your reamer have enough throat length to allow the 240 bullets to be seated out like the one in the pic above; otherwise you will lose quite a lot of powder space. I was only able to get 40 grains of 4198 in it by seating the bullet into the case about .2 inches. My 444 Marlin reamer which I was going to use, has essentially no throat at all; tapers right from the case neck.
boom stick
29 May 2014
Originally posted by Mark Clark:
I have a nearly done 28 gauge on 460 cases, a 550 Express. I think it would
have plenty of knock down for deer.
Love the 550 express.
I was thinking a shorter version would be cool as soon as I shot Jeffeoso's but around 2.25" to be used on a WSM gun. A 1.8" version would be a nice doe stopper
Mark Clark
29 May 2014
Originally posted by dpcd:
I recommend that your reamer have enough throat length to allow the 240
bullets to be seated out like the one in the pic above; otherwise you will
lose quite a lot of powder space. I was only able to get 40 grains of 4198 in
it by seating the bullet into the case about .2 inches. My 444 Marlin reamer
which I was going to use, has essentially no throat at all; tapers right from
the case neck.
I ordered it the same as the 444 however we have a throating reamer so I can adjust as needed.
I too was going to use the 444 reamer but it had two issues. The base diameter is too small if the reamer is held 0.4 short and both 444 reamers we have the case mouth is at 45 degrees and not good for head spacing.
boom stick
29 May 2014
A big tad off topic but I was thinking about the ideal 28 gauge slug weight and velocity and I think 1oz slugs at 1,600 should be good and obtainable but would like to see some quick load predictions for a much heavier slug around 1.5oz or 600 grains to compete with 12 gauge performance.
Mark Clark
29 May 2014
I see an issue with "Super Slug Guns" and the game warden. If the ammo does not look like the wardens preconceived notion of shotgun ammo the hunter will have to explain it to a judge.
A .55" dia bullet in a 1.8" long case 1600 fps should be do-able, a slug with rifle accuracy and passes inspection by the warden as a rifle.
boom stick
29 May 2014
Think of the mini 550 as a 500 S&W on steroids.
I see your point and documentation of a sporting cartridge would need to be filed and since there is a 550 Magnum and Express it should be easy to do. Another thought is an uber short Gibbs case to .585" and use 577 bullets or 58 cal muzzle loader bullets.
dpcd
29 May 2014
Mark, you are right; I will only use the 444 marlin as a test bed; the angled shoulder is not good for headspacing. I planned to rum a 308 reamer to get the base diameter right. But I do not have a .430 throater so I can't lengthen the throat until I get a reamer made. I do see that you know what you are doing. And you are right about the shotgun/rifle ammo; if it won't fire a shotgun shell, you are in trouble, and probably will be anyway if your ammo looks like a big brass rifle shell.
Mark Clark
30 May 2014
I work for a gunsmith, Dave Van Horn, he is old school and has hundreds of reamers including many wildcats. I looked at every combo I could think of to avoid buying the reamer for a prototype. The one that might work is a 44 Auto Mag run in WAAAYYY too deep to give a square edge to headspace followed by a 375 JDJ to open it up for the base of the case. Or the opposite order. But the odds of a disaster are very high so I ordered the reamer.
Today I contoured the barrel. Stainless, 20", Rem Sendero taper with a 0.800" muzzle. Fit is too heavy when done I can turn it smaller.
May do the threads on Monday.
Mark Clark
05 June 2014
Roughed out the stock. Many will hate it. I have a pattern for a Rem 700 with a straight grip and a butt similar to a Win 94, wood is fiddle back maple.
Dave made a fixture to cut off -06 cases to 1.9 in the lathe, did about 100. Now need to trim to final length.
Mark Clark
07 June 2014
I threaded and cut bolt relief in barrel. The Holland recoil lug I had bought had a bore of 1.115, it was not marked as being oversize. Good thing I measured it before cutting the shank. When the chamber reamer shows up I am ready.
Stock blank is in duplicator waiting for me Monday.
DArcy_Echols_Co
09 June 2014
Somebody might want to call Mark Penrod as he made a 35 caliber cartridge for Indiana's deer season that shoots very accurately, has the reamers of course, has the load data and had many sets of dies made for sale with the chamber job ahead of time. He has had very good success with this wildcat.
Mark Clark
09 June 2014
The 35 Penrod is a great cartridge and is made off the WSSM and has a shoulder. The Michigan rules were derived from the Indiana rules but ended up requiring a straight wall cartridge. So the Penrod 35 is out.
Politicians! If all the "Shotgun States" could get together and come up with one set of rules it would be so much better, allow the same rifle to be used in adjoining states.
coyote wacker
11 June 2014
Mark Clark... I just found this post... the past several months I've been playing around with different cases to come up with a wildcat for Michigan's new Zone 3 law... I didn't play with any .429 because of the lack of pointed bullets and that could be pushed 2000 fps + with out being bombs at short range....maybe Dan at CEB could make up tips for there 200gr. .429... sure would help with those long shots across fields.
Here's a couple I did look at:
.416-240 Weatherby 1.8" with CEB 180gr... could be built on any bolt gun... belt for head space.
.416-06 1.8" with CEB 180gr... CRF type action would be preferred for second head spacing.
.458-338 1.8" with CEB 250gr. or Hornady 250gr. Mono-Flex inside neck reaming required... could be built on any action... belt for head spacing.
.500-300RUM 1.8" CEB 300gr. or Hornady 300gr. Flex-Tip inside neck reaming required... CRF type action would be preferred for second head spacing.
This year I will be using my 50 B&M Super Short(500-325 WSM 1.65") with CEB 300 gr. with tips at 2435 fps for the first shot no tips in the magazine OAL to long.
Sorry about my hijack... I'am looking forward to seeing some numbers when you start burning powder
Mark Clark
12 June 2014
Here are a couple pictures. We have two rifles going, one is a plain walnut stock that started life a Remington 700 ADL and we recut it. It has the second 44 barrel, chrome moly. Fore end may end up shorter.
Second stock is the maple, one shot in the stock machine- action shot, was actually running. second full length on the dirty brown carpet. The fore end needs to be shaped and cut shorter. Even rough the grain shows up using a flash.
Dave making the chips
craigster
12 June 2014
Here's a stock similar to what you've got going that I did on a '91.
Mark Clark
12 June 2014
Yes. Swed and Spanish Mauser have a similar straight stock. I took the dimensions for this one right off a Win 94.
The Mauser stocks are quite a bit thicker at the toe, from the rear the are oval almost symmetrical top to bottom (I think it is for busting heads in hand to hand combat). The Winchester is a long teardrop shape with the point at the bottom. Early Winchesters where the bump up aft of the grip are also thin, not so much on later ones.
I looked at a lot of stocks.
cgbach
18 June 2014
Couldn't you do a short .458 2 inch. I think you could beat the .45-70 without much problem. There is also the .50 Beowulf if the belt is a problem.
dpcd
18 June 2014
Of course, he could do a 458-2 inch, an old, established wildcat. But remember, one of his design parameters was cheap/free/readily available brass.
BTW, here in Iowa, the way some idiots blast at deer with their shotguns, giving them rifles would be a recipe for disaster. They pay no attention to backstops or where their slugs end up. They party hunt in mass groups and it is best to stay far away from them. And it ain't perfectly flat here either.
boom stick
19 June 2014
I see a 1.8" 45-70 loaded long is the most simple solution. You would need bullets with enough shank to load out to nominal OAL but you get all the power of the 45-70.
Mark Clark
19 June 2014
A trimmed 45/70 may be able to be fired in a standard chamber. Accuracy may suffer but we are not talking a bench gun. The exposed area of the chamber where the case was trimmed would get cruddy but really the only time the short rounds would have to be used would be while hunting. I would run the concept by the DNR officer to make sure he is cool with the idea of a rifle that would chamber a longer round.
The 50 Beowulf has availability and cost of components and the highly rebated rim scares me off.
I think we need to keep in mind the rifle is to hunt whitetail deer at pretty close range. Some of the ideas have a lot of power for the job. I do not want to be the one using a stubby cannon round and be the one the fingers point at if the DNR changes back to shotgun only.
I am at this time committed to the 44 cal. I will have it finished in a week or two except for the chamber reaming.
cgbach
20 June 2014
Another thought would be a long .44 automag. It is just a .308 case trimmed, reformed and reamed. 250-300 gr bullet seated out a bit, would probably function in any standard length action.
Mark Clark
20 June 2014
This is what I am doing but using 30-06 cases because where the case is cut off at is behind the shoulder and saves a bunch of expanding. If I do not like neck thickness I will try shorter cases and look for thinner walls.
Mark Clark
15 November 2014
We finally got it done.
We had to ream the cases after trimming to 1.8". Used the load data from the 445 Super Mag as the starting point. The 445 is 0.2" shorter than my case and at lower pressure.
Using 265 grain Hornadys with the rubbery tip and Acurate 1680 36 grains for the first shot. Worked up to 39 grain. We were firing into a bullet trap, at 39 the recoil is more than the 444 Marlin and primers were still rounded.
Chronograph to be done at range.
NONAGONAGIN
15 November 2014
I've been following along... congrats on a fine wildcat.
Some things that 444 M shooters forgot or never understood, the 444 was hampered by barrel length to begin with and also was developed for a lever gun at lower pressures than available in a bolt shooter and also shorter COAL.
Load the 444 up for use in a BOLT gun at bolt gun pressures, a longer barrel and a longer COAL and you will get velos that will make your eyes pop out.
You are also starting to understand(possibly) the nuances of case capacity vs powder burn rate, not all cartridges were designed for optimum powder efficiency.
When you cut that case back to 1.79" you made it more efficient for faster burning powders at close to 100% case volume capacity. You can get the pressures up into the 60KPSI plus zone safely, BUT VERY QUICKLY, and get the same or higher velos as the standard 444 M case in a lever gun.
Two other powders, Lil' gun and H110 will work very well also but because there is a small range of powders suitable for this cartridge and they are fast burning pistol powders you need to increase VERY SLOWLY...on the order of two tenths of a grain increments.
Your load of 39 gr of AA1680 is running ~35 KPSI/2014 fs/88% capacity at a COAL OF 2.50", 22" barrel length, with that bullet according to QL...~44 gr of AA1680 gives ~100% capacity/~51.7 KPSI/2264 fs/3016 ft-lbs...not bad indeed.
Lil'Gun tops out at ~41 gr 93%/61.5 KPSI/2382 fs/3340 ft-lbs and...
H110 tops out at ~42.5 gr 94%/61.7 KPSI/2386 fs/3351 ft-lbs.
If I were developing loads for this one I would stop at .5 gr less for pressures in the 60 KPSI range...your 700 action will stand quite a bit more pressure but because the case is straight walled sometimes the "normal" pressure indicators don't work as well, pistol powders increase pressures VERY QUICKLY with small increment increases and you really need your chrono to tell the story along with your targets.
FWIW I cut a 444 case to 1.79" and got 58 gr H2O capacity... the 445 Supermag is about 49 gr so you have some wiggle room by using the 445 data.
PLEASE... be sure to post your load and chrono data, barrel length and COAL so I can correlate the QL data with real world data. Thanks
That "gummy bear" bullet is an excellent one for deer/black bear/elk at ranges out to about 250 yds(my limit for bullets with BC's in the.2-.3's) with a fairly high, comparatively speaking, BC... you definitely have a winner there.
Luck...
FORGOT TO ADD in;
RECOIL for the 39 gr AA1680 load is ~19 ft-lbs in a 8.5 lb gun and ~24 ft-lbs for the 44 gr load.
RECOIL for the 42.5 gr H110 load is ~25 ft-lbs, about equal to a 250 gr bullet at ~2500 fs...Whelen, 350 Rem Mag, etc., but with a much larger bullet cross sectional area.
hubel458
16 November 2014
We made the 585 HI 1.8" long for use in these areas.
Holds 80gr ball powder under 58cal Minie bullet.
Hairiest short case for deer a going.
Concept takes work for finding and redoing brass, reamers made, so found it was a lot less work to make the 3" long 24ga FH brass case, from readily available brass and reamers, stamp brass and barrel as legal 24ga, get power like .458 Win, with same Minie bullets. Bullets blunt stays idea of shorter range shooting... They are real killers on deer and hogs. Ed
Mark Clark
16 November 2014
Nonagonagin, thanks for the info.
When I go with cast bullets the 3500
0 psi will probably be good. When talking case capacity and percent loading is it to the mouth of the case or bottom of bullet?
After testing what I have loaded with A1680 I thin lil gun will be next, I have had good luck with it in other cartridges.
NONAGONAGIN
17 November 2014
Actually it's both...
The hard way...
I put the case on my digital scale then turn it on...that will give you a zero reading, then fill up with an eye dropper. I also use an old stuffed nose squirter with the tube pulled, you can also just tare out(zero) the scale, fill to the top of the case. That will give you the total weight of H2O.
Then insert the bullet into the case to the seated depth, a fired case works better because the bullet will slip into the case and the water will come out around the bullet, pull the bullet out and weigh again on the same scale, WITHOUT zeroing out...that will give you the displaced water...the percentage is dividing the full weight from the displaced weight and multiplying by 100.
The easy way and the way most internal software does it is just use the filled weight and let the program do the calculations.
The Powley Computer...
will do the calculations for you...just fill in the blanks. Powley won't give you any data other than for IMR and the older Hodgdon powder...I don't think is has any data on Lil'Gun or any AA/RL etc powders, but it might have some on H110....check it out
Basically there is just over 15% difference between your case and the 445 SM...49/58=~84.5 - 100 = 15.5% and the SM is loaded to 40.6KPSI so you have plenty of leeway as long as you creep up on the velocity slowly.
I haven't shot any Lil'Gun so I don't know how it reacts at the upper pressures, but I have shot a lot of H110 in my Ruger 44 mag Blackhawks so I would go with that powder first.
This being a wildcat and pistol powders not always acting in a linear fashion as the pressure goes up, I would go very slow with them.
The 450 Bushmaster has a case capacity of 60 gr and lists Lil'Gun, H110, Win 296, AA1680 and 4227 for 250 and 300 gr bullets at ~39.2KPSI so you might just check out that data, there's only a small difference in bullet OD so the data should interchange...NOT THE BULLETS THO'.
Mark Clark
10 May 2015
I finally had a chance to shoot at the range. Back about Christmas I shot some cans but it was cold and windy so I did not shoot paper as it would blow away.
The rifle has a scope with a 5x Max so it is set up for hunting not targets. I used the above load, 265 Hornady and 39 grains 1680, I shot 2" groups at 100 yards. I am sure about half the spread is my fault, with higher power scope and a better rest it would go an inch.
I did manage to find an 8 lb container of AA1680, now I need to find more bullets. I have a couple thousand Remington 240 flat nose but I have been told they are not good over pistol speeds.
333_OKH
11 May 2015 06
Originally posted by boom stick:
240 weatherby cut to 1.8" necked to 44 cal bullets with a bit of neck
reaming should be a good option but does not fit the easy to obtain at the
local shop brass criteria. Have you considered a shortened 45-70?
I handled one of these in gunsmiths class in high school. Since the 240 is just a rimmed 30-06 case it was easy. It was a 429 DRD on the barrel. IDK who or what that was, just know the case eas trimmed right as the Weatherby radius started so the length was long. Basically a 450 Marlin of old. I think it was well over 2" but obviously could be shorter if needed.
It was using 265 grain Remington slugs from the 444 Marlin and 44 Magnum 'carbine' loads. Action was that Arg 1891.
Mark Clark
14 November 2015
I got to hunt with the rifle!
http://forums.accuratereloadin...861045512#8861045512
I used the Hornady 265 grain FTP. Although they killed the hogs they came apart and only fragments were found.
Hans Moleman
19 June 2016
Mark, Nice Build! Have you had a chance to use it on deer yet? I took a similar path around the same barn and made a 44x1.8" last year after talking about it for years with some guys on Gunco. There are more pictures there
http://www.gunco.net/forums/151-build-yourself-forum-all-other-stuff/82707-
1891-mauser-444-1biggun.html
Wish I would of found this thread sooner as it would of help speed things up a bit. I'm also in MI and hunted the "limited firearm zone" in 2014 with a rimless 357Max in an ar15 (357AR) and got a buck. Made one for my son last year and he got a big doe with it. I toted around my 1891 Mauser (made in 1893 by ser#) but saw no shootable deer after making sure my son got one. Perhaps this fall they will be cooperative. I started with a $100 sporterized 1891 Mauser that I picked up several years prior very cheaply. Made a chamber reamer and headspace gauges. Threaded and chambered the barrel before taking a lot of chips off of it in a mill to make it octagon. Made the front sight and swivel base from some scrap steel. Thinking about going with a scope this year and still need to rust blue the barrel. Here's hopefully a couple pics.
Mark Clark
19 June 2016
I haven't done much with it since November, I did take it for a truck ride during javelina season.
I still am hoping to use it in Michigan, maybe this year it will happen.
What bullets are you using? I used the Hornady 265 grain with the plastic tip, all came apart with just fragments recovered.
Hans Moleman
19 June 2016
I also used the 265gr Hornady flextips. I didn't load it as hot as yours though. The first load I tried shot good so I stuck with it since at that point deer season was two weeks away. 33.0gr IMR4227 which according to QuickLoad is supposed to have around 38k-psi and leave the barrel at around 1970fps. Slower than my 444 Marlin, but figured it was prudent to keep the pressure down since the action is 123 years old. If those bullets come apart at the slower velocity I can always switch to Remington flat points which seem to do OK in my Marlin.
I've been unable to find Reloder 7 locally which I want to try as it gives about the same velocity at 34k-psi and a full case. I have some 1680 that I want to try also. I'm gathering parts for an AR-10 based rife that could be loaded hotter. Still deciding on a good bullet mold for this one.
MS Hitman
22 June 2016
Used to make .445 Supermag from .303 British. If someone had an Enfield that could be rebarreled, that may make a handy deer rifle.