I have a loose plunger tube on a Colt Delta Elite. Can these be restaked, or is it better to just replace them? I have heard of some 'smiths silver soldering them in place on "hard use" guns. This is a rescued project gun that I am de-Bubbafying, and a refinish is in its future, so slathering it with red Locktite isn't really an option. Thanks!
Just out of curiosity, why no locktite?
Made my plunger tube nice and tight.
Well, I can't imagine the acids in a parkerizing bath would do Locktite of ANY color too much good...
Yep... You can restake it, but the tools for the job will cost about double- triple what it would to take it to a smith. It's a 5-minute job that he'll probably do while you wait.
Kinda what I figured. I guess I'll just have the guy do it before he drops it into the Park bath.
Before you do all of this, be sure that the holes are countersunk inside the magazine well. Sometimes they ... well ..."forget" to do this little operation.
I have Parkerized assemblies that were epoxied together without having any problems later, and yes - I have silver soldered tubes, and to date none have seperated from the frame. Some see this as overkill. I don't. If your pistol is used as a weapon and the tube comes loose the safety plunger will lock the safety lock in the "on" position, and you can't get it off.
By the way, that's what the little lip on top of the left grip is supposed to prevent. Be sure your grip has one.
Spot on, Fuff... and while you've got the frame stripped, have the smith check to see if the countersinks have been done in the grip bushing holes, too.
Just for pure entertainment value and for the sake of argument, walk me through how you would silver solder a plunger tube... I know how I would do it (I think), but I am eager to hear how more "seasoned" citizens would go about it.
Well the first thing is that you need to have a "real-steel" plunger tube, and not an MIM part - these days that isn't always easy.
Be sure the bottom of the tube and matching face on the frame have been polished enough to remove any finish, and that the tube fits flat to the frame.
Hint: To get the tube to sit flat you may have to also countersink the holes on the outside of the frame just a little bit.
I like Brownells' Hi-Temp/Hi Force 44 solder (#080-649-501) and their recommended flux. Flux both the tube and frame, press the tube into place, and then wipe off any excessive flux. The solder flows at 650 Degrees/F. A pencil- point torch will easly melt it and the flux will draw the solder to where you want it. Unlike soft lead/tin solder it is not effected by a blue bath or Parkerizing. After you solder the tube you can still stake it if you want.
Clean-up is much easier if you don't use too much solder...
Now that I've given you all of this free advice can you get me into the Starfleet Academy?
Like this one used with propane and oxygen perhaps? # 5 Tip is good.
http://www.littletorch.com/
Best one I ever used.
There are imitations on the market - which cannot not even come near in quality. Note the Micro tips when used with various fuels. Then again I still feel Hoke makes the best bigger torches...
Can the plunger tube be silver soldered on to an aluminum frame?
Quote:
Like this one used with propane and oxygen perhaps? # 5 Tip is good.
You bet'cha ...
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Can the plunger tube be silver soldered on to an aluminum frame?
Nope! There you will have to depend on a good adhesive - epoxy or red Loc- Tite. And of course it can be staked.
No matter how you fasten the tube, you can get extra insurance by glass bedding the little lip at the top of the left grip that is there to support and protect the tube. That's another little but critical detail John Browning thought of that is sometimes missing on current-day products. Relatively few grip makers know what that lip is for, or have even noticed it. But if the lip is tightly fitted to the tube it won't back out even if it is otherwise unsecured.
Chamfer the holes as Old Fuff mentioned earlier. On the stocks, again take his advice on having the lip, and how lip fits to plunger tube.
Old Fuff said I could do this part... He gets to further explain Loctite if neeed.
Epoxy 101
By Yours Truly
Some brands of epoxy work better than others. I recommend Leech the one Brownell's sells is good, and a few others.
STAY AWAY from Elmer's. Their epoxy sucks, their white glues for wood and paper are great.
AVOID epoxy in plastic syringes - seems the plasic 'plasticizes' and messed up the two parts.
Small metal tubes are best IME.
24 hour epoxy is best for plunger, and other work, 5 min will work and can be just as strong - the trick is how to properly do epoxy...
Epoxy
Toothpicks
Clean paper
Set up stuff
Clean and prep the areas to be Epoxied. On metal is its critical these are degreased as well. Lighter Fluid works. Dishwashing soap like Palmolive works, rinse with hot water and allowed to dry works.
Use a clean toothpick to punch a tiny hole in each of two parts metal endcap / seal. Separate toothpicks for each tube. Toss these toothpicks.
Equal parts of each tube [hardener and resin] onto CLEAN fresh paper, each in its own little spot, near to each other, not touching... near.
Wipe off epoxy tubes' tops and put lids on. I cut just the top portion of the "blister" of packing epoxy come in, set tubes back in "blister" - hang on wall.
Now a fresh toothpick is used to mix the two parts, real good, pretend you are scrambling eggs, "whip" and "fold", mix really well. Toss the toothpick.
Apply to areas needed with fresh toothpick, LEAVE this toothpick in the mixed up epoxy on the clean paper.
Since you were smart enough to already figure how to hold parts in place without having to sit there and hold them... like using clothes pins, hemostats with rubber to cover serrations on jaws, smooth jawed "holding tweezers"... your "set up stuff"...
You can take a damp cloth and remove any "squished out" epoxy, or using another fresh toothpick remove.
Now when all is set, wait the allotted time - 5 min, or 24 hrs.
[slaps hand] naaaa... uhno. Quit messing with it, leave it be... I said wait the alotted time.
You can come back now - allotted time is up... don't go to the work.... slow down will ya?
First-
Try to wiggle the toothpick left in mixed epoxy you applied from clean slip of paper... if this toothpick is "set" - your work is "set".
If toothpick does in fact wiggle, or can be removed - you goofed up somewhere. You have to clean everything back to original, clean and degreased, and start all over.
Leaving the toothpick in the mixed epoxy is your fail safe check system.
Now if the toothpick is rock solid - you done good, you may now check the gun / work itself. Fine razor blade if need to tweak any removal of epoxy. With practice - you won't even have to do this...
Reasons for goofing up - work not prepped, not clean, greasy, too much of one part of epoxy (NOT equal parts) or improper planning on how to let work sit... like in vise with holding tweezers.
Aside - Epoxying metal, such as silver, gold or brass to the inside part of left Genuine Ivory 1911 grip that fits over plunger tube... aids in support, better fit, and not only helps the tube... helps the Genuine Ivory Stocks as well.
Class dismissed... I need a smoke break and a cup of coffee anyway...
Reprobate, still without his certification / diploma [ hint... hint]
You did fine grasshopper, but be sure the metal parts (frame, plunger tube, etc.) are coated with a release agent before you use the epoxy stuff except in the places where you want it to bond. Otherwise you may never be able to remove the grip again - if you are bedding it to fit the tube.
You are quite correct about being sure everything is clean, and that includes the lip on the grip if you chose to glass (epoxy) bed it for a perfect fit against the tube. So lightly sandpaper it on the inside surface.
When it comes to the release agent don't forget the inside of the magazine well near the holes for the plunger tube.
I have had good luck using a heavy coat of paste wax as a release agent, as well as RIG grease, but if you use anything other then what Brownells' sells experiment first to be sure that it really does work. After applying any wax, don't polish it out.
Okay, I don't get it.
Why would you go through all that agony instead of using locktite?
- Some folks are honestly afraid of Loctite.
Have used the wrong color, or know of someone that has, or have bought something used in which wrong color was applied.
Then folks with little or no experience "hear" of using heat to "get the Loctite to let go". Again the situation goes from bad to worse, using Incorrect methods and tools to apply heat.
- Epoxy has some unique characteristics. Resistant to solvents, oils, greases, water, salt water, temperature fluxuations... versatility & adaptibility
Works on a variety of materials, even those of different compositions. [differing metals, wood to metal, metal to glass...]
Epoxy - "gives" - meaning unlike adhesives, it will "bend", "flex", and not "snap off" such as Super Glues can do.
Epoxy products are not the 'end all - do all' adhesive - pretty darn close.
"Thin" products sometimes do not adhere (Super Glue for instance) so one uses more, then too much... still does not hold, and difficult if not impossible to remove.
Epoxy being "thicker" does not require as much to adhere. If one needs the Epoxy to get into "tight splaces" - warm the metal, and the metal will suck in what it needs to adhere.
- There is that "it is 11pm, in small town, nobody is open, and I gotta fix this plunger (cracked stock/stocks, loose sight, chunk missing in rubber stock... tennis shoe heel coming apart, radio knob on vehicle cracked into...) tonight. That is why you have your Emergency Epoxy Repair kit with you. Sure nothing on Podunk TV at midnight, in a Cottage Type Room for rent out in the middle of nowhere.
To remove Loctite, epoxy... heat up a small soldering iron (or similar) apply to adhered areas and eventually the adhesive will let go.
Yes I have epoxied a plunger tube, fixed a busted 1911 wood stock, various shotgun forearms, a lever action stock and various other things - in hunting camps out in the middle of nowhere.
Murphy really hates it when someone has an epoxy kit, holding tweezers, hemostats, and roll of electrical tape in their hunting bag.
Both Loc-Tite and epoxy have their place, but the best grades of epoxy, as sold by Brownells, fill voids better, don't shrink, and will work well on different materials. I once stopped a seam-leak in a gas tank with Brownells' Acraglas Gel while it was still dripping. It lasted for years through all kinds of environments - and may still be O.K. (I don't know because I sold the car). Anyway experience made me a believer. Others can use whatever they want.
If you happen to be getting the torch out for your plunger tube, do the grip screw bushings too and save yourself some grief.
Yes, but be sure you know what they are made of first ...
Because so many parts are now made using MIM technology I am less inclined to use solder...
Us folks that use epoxy, India slip stones on sears and such don't hear voices.
Now them folks trying to get a cut-off disc inside a magwell with a Dremel to get grip bushings un-stuck...
Or the ones using a hand-held propane torch to get a plunger tube back off (granted it takes talent to put one on with Pla-Doh)...
Them's the folks that hear voices.