I've got a new Springfield Range Officer that I really like, that is very accurate and that I plan on putting a lot of time on over the coming years. What I do not like about it is the 5lb trigger. While far better than most service pistols, it could still stand some improvement. I've got various revolvers and autos with triggers that are 2lbs or less so I really don't want to get into a discussion about whether or not one 'should' have such a light trigger.
Speaking only terms of safety and reliability, what is the lowest, safe letoff range for the platform? Can I get it to 2lbs?
There's an old saying in racing circles.
"Speed costs money. How fast can you afford to make it go?"
Grand Master Larry Brown is as member of the range that I belong to, and I see him frequently. His competition pistols have 2 pound triggers, and they don't malfunction.
They're a bit scary, but they function correctly... every time. He told me that the smith demanded 400 'Merican dollars to duplicate that work. By contrast, the man will do a clean, crisp, unbelieveably smooth 4 pound trigger for 75 bucks. Larry's carry gun has the 4-pound trigger... and he's a Grand Master. I'm not sure what conclusions that you can draw from that, but there it is.
IIRC, 3.5 lbs is the minumum for NRA competion, and someone, somewhere, told me it was because a 1911 weighs about 3.5 lbs ( I just checked, my SS 1911 weighs in at 3.5 loaded).
Plus, everything Tuner said.
As noted by no less an authority than the 1911 Tuner, light trigger pulls in a 1911 can be done at great expense and they are suitable for a competition pistol only.
Generally accepted minimum trigger pull weight for a 1911 is 3#.
Most carry 1911s run about 4#, which is fairly easy to accomplish with moderate expense.
Fact is that within reasonable levels, pull weight is less important than no creep, no grit. That is a smooth clean crisp break.
An interesting note is that the NRA Bullseye competition spec for the 1911 .45acp trigger is 3.5# as a minimum.
That should tell you something about reasonable and safe minimums.
In case you're interested, there is a do-it-yourself article by Jack Weigand on doing a 2 1/2 pound trigger pull. I skipped the part on stoning the sear. I have a great 3-3 1/4 pound pull now. If I recall correctly the article will turn up doing a search using Brownells Jack Weigand.
There are a number of factors at play, that aren't of concern in revolvers.
One is that the jar of the slide going into battery can cause the hammer to follow down. Another is that if the trigger itself is heavy enough it can slap backwards when the pistol recoils and cause the sear to release on a ultra- light trigger pull. Still another is that the sear/disconector/trigger spring - which is a critical component - can take a set over time and compromise a light trigger pull. If the "hooks" (full-cock notch) on the hammer are lowered to get a more crisp pull (not to mention a lighter one) they compromise the safety lock (manual safety) which is designed to use the sear to hold and secure the hammer at full-cock.
Colt's themselves say 4 to 5 pounds on a service pistol. Going lighter can put you into a gray area where I don't plan to go.
May I join this discussion... a gunsmith tried to lower the trigger pull but all I noticed was he just keep moving the hammer up and down. The hammer strut is upwards and the MSH is not in placed. What was that?
Pure speculation on my part, but he's probably checking the sear/hammer hooks relationship for engagement and creep. (hooks = full-cock notch on the hammer). He may be also making sure that the sear doesn't catch in the half- cock notch as it falls - which can easily happen if the depth of the hooks is reduced for a more crisp no-creep pull, but no alteration is made to the half- cock notch or ledge.
But he really able to bring down the trigger pull to 2.7 lbs just doing so. I didn't notice any part alteration or whatsoever.
I have an SV that has a 1.5# trigger that has been problem free for 5 years and many many thousands of rounds.
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...but he really able to bring down the trigger pull to 2.7 lbs just doing
so. i didn't notice any part alteration or whatsoever.
A lot would depend on previous alterations, but if he started with a stock hammer, sear, and springs, I doubt it. Most likely he would have to lower both mainspring and sear/disconector/grip safety spring tensions, and considering that the latter spring can often take a set, I would say the resulting trigger pull might be O.K. on a target pistol, but not safe on a serious purpose service/carry weapon. You would be risking hammer follow-down and the security of the safety lock (manual safety) would be compromised if hammer hook depth was reduced. Otherwise you would have a light, but long, very creepy trigger pull.
Now that got me scared. There's no alteration before. All he just did was that fast hammer movement. Quite fast that I didn't notice what's going on. then afterwards I just measured it with the resulting 2.7 lbs pull.
As I said your comment got me scared. I guess he can bring it back to heavier pull again?
Also, when you start going to a really light trigger, you may need to consider how much overtravel the trigger has. In a finely tuned, custom 'smith trigger, they will have very short reset via reduced overtravel. With a light trigger, and little overtravel, you can bump fire the gun on recoil. This is basically like a full-auto situation, and is kinda frightening when you aren't ready for it (cold numb fingers, firing one handed, ask me how I know...)
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I just measured it with the resulting 2.7 lbs pull. As I said your comment
got me scared. I guess he can bring it back to heavier pull again?
I can't say because I don't know what was done, and have no way to inspect the pistol. Keep in mind that Colt and other manufacturers of service grade pistols usually set trigger pulls at 5 to 4 pounds. Custom builders, especially those making competition guns sometimes go lighter.
Games are games, but under the stress of a shooting incident - or a potential one - I wouldn't want a pull under 4 pounds. I also wouldn't want to take the risk of the hammer falling to half-cock.
There is really no mystery about how ultra-light trigger pulls are made. It involves reducing hammer hook depth, setting sear angles, and tweaking springs. Also a substantially lightened trigger is substituted for a standard one to prevent "bump shooting."
In an entirely different context, Glock pistols can be ordered with stock triggers of about 3 pounds, but the standard one for service pistols, I believe is 5-1/2 pounds, and some police departments order a 10 pound one. Somewhere in all this there is a message.
What gamers do is another matter.
IMHO, oft-repeated standards are not hard and fast rules. Profiency is the most important thing and safety is between the ears. There are limits so no, I wouldn't want a 3oz trigger on a concealed carry pistol. However, I shoot revolvers and pistols near about every day with 2lb triggers and at last count, had several in that range. Some are even less. So if a two pound trigger is what I'm most accustomed to, then it is perfectly safe, in my hands. So if I am intimately famliar with a handgun with a 2lb trigger, then it is no more or less safe than any other. That is, as long as the sear only disengages the hammer when, and only when, the trigger is deliberately pressed to the rear.
Which is exactly what I meant in the OP when I stated that I did not want to get into the "why".
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So if I am intimately famliar with a handgun with a 2lb trigger, then it is
no more or less safe than any other.
Weeeellllll... There's another factor in the equation that can't be predicted with any reliability.
Adrenalin dump is a funny thing... and while a good shoot is a good shoot, regardless of the trigger pull... not all situations require taking the shot. I prefer to practice with a range gun with a 4-pound trigger and carry one with a 5.5-6 pound pull. Just an added bit of insurance against droppin' the hammer too early if I get the shakes.
Very true and something to consider but I also have to consider the usage for this particular pistol. For it will spend far more time in general use around the farm and building skill with the platform than it will in strict self defense duty. So to be blunt, my ability to hit a cowpie with it at 50yds or more is much more important than anything related to concealed carry. If it was purely a concealed carry pistol, like my little stainless Kimber Ultra, then a light and crisp trigger would not be very important. It will also be my first choice should I decide to get into 3-gun and a light trigger will not be a detriment there either.
So it sounds like something in the neighborhood of 3lbs would be sufficient.
If we were discussing revolvers I'd agree with you.
But we're not, and the 1911 pistol platform is a different animal.
Too bad as this 2.7 lbs trigger really changed for the good my range.
Withstanding pulling the trigger, in the event of hammer follow and manual safety compromised, the half-cock notch should catch the hammer. Am I right?
If yes, then is it safe to assume that 2.7lbs trigger is also safe with condition 1 mode of carry?
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...in the event of hammer follow and manual safety compromised, the half-
cock notch should catch the hammer. Am I right? If yes, then is it safe to
assume that 2.7lbs trigger is also safe with condition 1 mode of carry?
The reason Browning put the half-cock notch on the hammer was so the sear could catch the hammer if it followed down, and stop it before it hit the firing pin. So far, so good.
But he didn't expect that 21st Century shooters would want under 3 pound trigger pulls on a design set up to have (originally) one twice as heavy. The idea is that the hammer hooks (full-cock notch) are relatively deep, and the sear has full engagement. When you put the safety lock (manual safety) on it is supposed to block the sear so that it can't move. Again, as long as the pistol is as it was designed everything will be good. While the safety may allow the sear to move a little bit, so long as it's supported by the unmodified hammer hooks it won't matter.
Ah, but now comes the 21st Century gamer (or whoever) who has discovered that while playing "the game" or just shooting at the range, lighter is better. Off to the gunsmith he goes.
Can the 'smith give you an under 3 pound pull? Probably. But to do it they usually reduce the depth of the hooks, so the sear has less engagement surface. Then they cut a back-angle on the sear that reduces contact even further. In other words the sear has to move far less then it did to release the hammer. Also if we reduced the depth of the hooks the same will have to be done to the half-cock notch or ledge.
Now I'm sure you wouldn't know a back-angle if it bit you, but take my word for it - under these conditions the safety has to be hand fitted so that and sear movement when its engaged is absolutely zero. Also if the hammer is struck a hard blow there is a chance that the tip of the sear may break off, and as the hammer falls that modified half-cock position won't catch it. Now I shouldn't have to explain what will happen.
Then there are springs that come into play. In particular the one behind the magazine well that tensions the (1) sear, (2) disconnector, which in turn tensions the trigger, (3) the grip safety. The last one doesn't concern us here, but the first two do big-time. Over time they sometime take a set, so your 2.7 trigger pull may drop to 2.5 or even less.
I should also mention that if your hammer should happen to follow down while you are going about some serious business with a target that can (or is) shooting back, you are likely to be in one of those "... hit the fan" situations, regardless if the half-cock does its thing or not.
Gamers claim their ultra-light trigger pulls are safe, but they often have pistols that were set up with custom components, in particular hammers that are made with reduced-depth hooks in the first place. They pay big-bucks to get the work done, and watch to be sure that the pull weight isn't dropping. The only time they carry in Condition One (cocked & locked) is during a "stage in progress," otherwise their guns are cleared (or are supposed to be). I am aware though of instances where a top-ranked competitor was disqualified when the hammer of his pistol started following down. Not common, but has happened.
Jeff Cooper, who I counted as a friend, said that "real world/street gun" 1911 style pistols should have trigger pulls in the 4 to 5 pound range. As a practical matter if a pull is first set at 4.5 pounds it will soon work into an almost perfect 4.3 pounds, that's ideal for a pistol that's carried as a weapon.
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If we were discussing revolvers I'd agree with you.
But we're not, and the 1911 pistol platform is a different animal.
Well, that's why I wanted to find out what was the lightest, mechanically safe letoff possible with the platform. Not get into a discussion about "why". What Browning designed the platform to do 100yrs ago and what Colt says today regarding "service pistols" are irrelevant.
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Well, that's why I wanted to find out what was the lightest, mechanically
safe letoff possible with the platform. Not get into a discussion about
"why".
There is I believe, a connection between what is "the lightest mechanically safe letoff possible with the platform," and the internal lockwork design. Without knowing the particulars of the design I doubt you could make an informed decision concerning where the line should be drawn relative to your intended use. Of course you can make a decision by picking any number that happens to be posted on this thread and go in whatever direction with apparently not having the knowledge to know "why."
Until now I can't figure out how he was able to bring it down to 2.7 lbs without a bit of cutting in either sear or hammer parts. I'm sure there's no cutting as I was watching when he changed my sear and started that hammer movement as described above.
Is it possible just by tweaking the relation of hammer and trigger?
I bought a used Colt lw Commander in the 70s. After a few months, I took it to a gunsmith in Cross Lanes, WV. He installed AMT Hardball front and rear sights, performed an action job, and a trigger job. It is my carry gun and has been for forty years. Tuner knows the darn thing will not feed HPs so I carry hardball. He made the statement after examining the pistol that the 'smith had over polished the ramp and had penetrated the hardened skin of the alloy frame.
It has a 2# trigger. Always has been. Lyman Digital Scale. Like CraigC, my competition handguns all range in this area. The three screw Blackhawks are 1.5#s. My Winchester 73s are 1.5 pounds. I am used to them.
RC... Didn't we use the plug and headspace gauge in that Commander the other day?
Seems like there wasn't enough meat left to set the barrel ramp forward and keep good head support.
The problem was that Dremel Dan rolled the top corner of the feed ramp. A magazine change could possibly make a difference... but it's a small chance.
You are correct Tuner. As you have pointed out in other posts, he went a little too far on the ramp face and the aforementioned rollover. Probably a good candidate for a ramp insert. If I am concerned about hardball.
I think I have tried Amt Hardballer, Colt, Wilson, and other magazines. I have a 1911 Gov't Property 1940s that will feed everything as does the NM from the same magazines.
Did they have Dremels in 1974?
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Did they have Dremels in 1974?
Oh, yeah. The ubiquitous Dremel Moto-Tool is no more than a scaled-down die grinder, intended for a skilled tradesman to use for a task known as "Die Sinking."
A ramp insert may not be required, RC... but a new barrel probably will be. If I recall, it didn't lack much having enough meat to reposition the barrel ramp and still have good head support, and the rolled corner wasn't excessive. If you can make the trip again, I'll try a couple Commander barrels that I have on hand, just to see what the results are.
Sometimes, that's all it takes.
In all my CF 1911's i have a nice crisp 3.5 lb trigger. On a 1911 frame which is used exclusively with a Marvel 22 conversion unit I have a slightly less than 2 lb. trigger.
I used to belong to a club where Todd Jarrett practiced. At the time he was using nothing but Para Ordnance race guns put together by Dave Dawson of Dawson Precision fame.
Mr. Jarrett however did his own trigger work because Dawson would not work a trigger down to Jarret's favorite pull weight of 11 ounces!
I watched Jarrett shoot many thousand rounds practice and never saw a trigger malfuction or ND. Funny thing, when he showed up and started setting up targets and chrony, everyone would quit shooting and start packing up. Some said it was just respect so that Jarrett could get in undistrubed practice, but in my case, it was because my so-so shooting looked OK around most shooters but it looked terrible-terrible compared to Jarrett.
I have an old Colt 1991A1 done up by Ted Yost when he was at Gunsite. The trigger pull is around 6 pounds but it is crisper and easier to control than some 3 pound jobs from other smiths. Like the proverbial glass rod snapping.