This is my 1911 which is chambered for 7.62mm Tokarev. It started with coworker giving me a 9mm Springfield slide, barrel, and miscellaneous parts which his father had found in his garage. I knew immediately what I was going to do with it.
I had the idea for putting the 7.62x25mm in a 1911 for quite a while at this point. I was shopping around for parts for such a build. Having half of the major components show up unsolicited really got the ball rolling. A Foster Ind. frame and Caspian parts filled out the build. For a while, I shot it as a 9mm, but I eventually got around to doing the conversion.
The conversion was really a barrel and magazine swap. The hard part was the barrel. My first barrel was made by cutting the chamber section off the 9mm barrel and boring it out. I then used a section of stainless Rem.700 30-06 barrel and basically made a barrel much like Springfield's two part .45 barrels. And it worked well, for a time.
Unfortunately the stainless used in Rem. 700 barrels is extremely soft and my lugs set back .020-30" in just a few hundred rounds. So, I build a second barrel. This time I used a GI .45 barrel with a rotten bore and went about the modifications a different way. I reamed it end to end .472"(12mm) and the faced the barrel just behind the lower lugs. Then I made a liner from a stub of a Pac-Nor barrel blank, which I again silver brazed into the GI barrel.
Through this barrel I have now shot about a thousand rounds. I also did a lot of mods to the basic platform. Novak sights, lightened slide, Wilson beaver tail, reshaped grip, and a STI/EGW trigger group. This guns is just a blast to shoot. Very light recoil. Flat trajectory. Six cents a pop.
I have since built a second 1911 in Tokarev from a Rock Island 38 Super. It has not been finished yet but here is No.2 with No.1.
I have a build thread at AR15.com, which covers a lot of stuff I can not even remember.
Factory loaded Tokarev ammunition is typically .100 or more too long to fit correctly into a 1911 .38 Super Magazine. Initially I just wanted to see if the gun would even work reliably at first so I lived with the mag capacity of 4-6 rounds. Now that my pistol is ironed out I have been bumping the bullets back to an OAL of 1.275" and recrimping with a Lee Factory Crimp Die. This has worked out well. Wilson 47SX magazines seem to have the edge over the CMC Shooting Stars. And both are worlds above any of the Metalforms offerings.
Here are some velocities, recorded at ten feet from the muzzle with an Oehler 35P. These demonstrate the generally increased pressure caused by setting back and recrimping the bullets over the same powder charge. The S&B was actually slower aftet such treatment and I believe this is because it has a ]very strong factory crimp.
Polish Surplus; 1575 fps
Polish Surplus w/ bullets set back; 1605 fps
Yugo Surplus; 1457 fps
Yugo Surplus w/ bullets set back; 1489 fps
Wolf Gold FMJ; 1415 fps
Wolf Gold FMJ w/ bullets set back; 1452 fps
S&B FMJ; 1600 fps
S&B FMJ w/ bullets set back; 1584 fps
Have you tried a 10mm mag in this build? IIRC the 10mm and 7.62X25 are the same OAL. I do not know about the OAW though. the 10mm mag may be to0 wide.The .45 ACP, 10x25mm, and .38 Super all have the same maximum overall loaded length of 1.275". The 10mm does have the same 25mm case length as the Tokarev. However, the Tokarev's specs allow for a lot more bullet in front of the case mouth, and a resulting overall loaded length of something like 1.375". I looked at thinning the magazines front and rear walls but, a factory loaded Tokarev is basically as long as the magazine well in a 1911. So, I would end up with weakened magazines and still have to set back the bullets a bit.
That looks very nice. I built mine a number of years ago when the ammo was trickling in and a few years before a decent pistol (cz52) was avail. I have had the same issue with having to seat the bullets deeper. I picked up one of the AMT frames for 30 carbine cartridge from Numrich a while back with the intent but have not found time to finish it up.
Starline brass will allow you to handload to the proper length. My biggest complaint with the surplus is having to open up the gun completeley when a case splts to get all the residue from under grp panels etc.
I plan to have barrel for sale soon. It should be a strait forward barrel swap conversion of a 1911 in either 9mm or 38 Super. A 9mm based gun will likely require magazines as most 9mm 1911's come with blocked mag. These barrels are new production, made from 416 forgings, in the standard 5" no-ramp configuration. They do feature an extended bushing seat so they can easily be cut back to fit Commanders. They are a GI "Drop In" dimensions so fitting, if any, should be extremely minimal. I would like to be more specific about the time line, but I really can not.
I do not have any build pics. This picture shows the breach of the two barrels which are currently shooting. The right barrel is from my Sprigfield/Foster, and the left barrel is for the RIA. Both were .45 ACP barrels, mine a GI with a bad bore, and the RIA's a Series '70 with a ringed bore. The RIA's barrel has a full length all internal liner. My barrel is fully lined, but the entire breach section is the liner. You can just barely see the seem, it meets the lower lugs in the corner.
The rest of the work is just the result of my access to a mill and the ability to turn it on. The slide does not need to be lightened, I like the look and how lightened slides shoot. The RIA was run for a while with nothing done to it other the dropping the barrel in.
Currently the plan is for a kit containing the barrel, link, and pin as well as a 26# main spring, and a 14# recoil spring. The 26# main spring will be a necessity for reliable ignition with surplus ammunition. Even with it, one in a hundred will require a second hit to ignite. My experience running surplus through TT-30 and CZ-52 pattern pistols has been similar, therefore I do not see any heavier a main spring as being beneficial.
There is no ignition reliability issue with new commercial ammunition. So, if you wish to carry the gun, that would be the way to go. Wolf Gold JHP seems to show promise in jello, although it is as unimpressive as their FMJ load in regard to velocity. And S&B FMJ seems to show promise for thugs in body armor.
The barrels will be compatible with all non-ramped barreled 1911. If the pistol in question has a Wilson/Nowlin or Clark/Para integral feed ramp barrel this first run of barrels will not be compatible. Assuming reasonable sales barrels for ramped guns will follow. With the W/N style being first as the large majority of manufacturers which use a ramped barrel use this configuration. I acknowledge the C/P ramps technological superiority, but they just do not have the market share. Wilson Combat, Springfield Armory, Kimber, and STI all use the W/N ramp. But currently, if you wish to have a barrel soon your breach must look like these:
[questions about setting back the bullets]Every firearm suffers a sharp decline in effectiveness once the ammunition supply has run dry. This not a unique condition exclusive to 1911's chamber in 7.62x25mm. If you are so inclined, depending on the magazine you can load 4 to 6 rounds of factory length Tokarev ammo in the 1911 and go that way. Possibly more if you want to try you hand at tuning magazines. This is how I shot several hundred rounds, five and six at a time, before I purchased Tokarev dies.
From now on I will use Tokarev surplus with the bullets set back to 1.275" OAL. I open a spam can of Tok' cartridges, projectiles get set back and crimped before the ammo goes into a .30 Cal ammo can for shooting. Very little work to shoot ammo with an out of pocket cost of less then 7 cents a round. These shortened rounds will work just fine in a TT pattern pistol as well, of which the Yugo M57 is my favorite.
I do not claim to be doing anything original or new with this conversion, other then hopefully having a ready supply of barrels for my customers. Most of those I have talked to have multiple pistols in Tokarev already and reload for it all ready.
To me the attraction is ammunition that is less expensive then the least expensive 9mm FMJ component bullet I can find to hand load.
Attached is a great picture I stole from the internet illustrating the
difference. Barrel and frame on the left is good to go. Barrel and frame on
the right is a no-go, at least for now.
Thought you might like to check this out. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=191133161[link expired]
Two BIG things come to mind about that guys 1911 upper on Gun Broker vs. Kristofer G's conversion:
1st off:
His was featured in no less than 4 different national publications, so therefore, it will obviously command a higher price. And in all actuality, that makes his "Quite Low" in price......if only there was the matching other half. (see below) ???
2nd off:
His can feed, function and use ANY standard TOK ammo......this being one of the other directions I spoke of. I have the Shotgun News article that this GI 1911 TOK came out of and the author shows how the VC gunsmith had cut and welded the mag and frame. I believe that the barrel was sleeved also, in the manner of KrisG's. ???
But that also means that he can use stock TOK ammo, which KrisG can't unless, (he looks into a magazine redesign) it's under 4 rds. :(
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This is actually more like the direction I am heading on a DIFFERENT but similar 1911 project.
Don't like the idea that I can be caught holding a spam can full of ammo and a pistol that won't take more than 4 rds. and function correctly. If only someone was able to drum up a functional mag redesign. F*** man, if you could even fit the original 7/8 rounds back in the mag I am sure you sell em' like hot cakes !! (!( :-* ;D
Come on guys, this ain't that hard... we got, like... what, 20 smart a** people on this thread already... who own how many different guns? :D ;D ???
OK, so does anyone have a CZ52 and or a real TOK, can you please start trying to shove their magazines into your 1911 to see how far off it is, will it work, etc. Then take pictures and post them back here. :-[ ??? :-*
How about a Desert Eagle .357 1st model (small frame) or a mag from an Auto Mag .30 carbine?
How much would need to be taken off the frame for example, because remember that the extra material is there already and a whole array of new parts is available now, guys. :-*?
IF he had the complete gun he might have gotten that type of money out of it... but its not.
And it doesnt matter to me if it was in 50 different magazines, that doesn't make it work any better. ;D
Now as to KristoferG's conversion: in the original set up he only got about 4 rounds.
When you follow up and read a little farther he is now getting full runs in the mags with REGULAR loads.
That's why I'm after the 38 super instead of just a 45... the magwell is a bit deeper front to back.
Don't worry one of the things I'd be after is getting full mag runs in this thing.
About that other part of your post: Of course I've got TOK's and CZ's :D :D did you ever really doubt that?
They are much much narrower side to side than the .45acp mags.
This is something I'm gonna work on just want to make sure I have a barrel first.
After the barrel is in my hands I'll FORCE the rest to work. hee hee.
The mag well on a 1911 does not change with caliber. The differences are with the breach face in the slide, the feed ramp in the frame, the extractor and the ejector. A 38S magazine will lock into a .45 frame and vise versa.
To load a 1911 to capacity with Tokarev cartridges, they must be 1.275" or less OAL. This is 0.065" shorter then the 1.34" OAL Tokarev cartridges have when they leave the factory. You must either hand load custom ammunition or mod' the factory ammunition, which is what I do. Setting back the surplus cartridges and recrimping to load 9 rounds into my 1911.
The reason I do not attempt to fit a CZ52 or TT type magazine to a 1911 frame is after one removes .065" from the frame there is not much of a frame left. The front strap is paper thin. This does not make for a durable pistol.
A custom magazine which fits a nominal 1911 frame yet hold 7-9 factory length Tokarev cartridges maybe possible. I do not know if you are familiar with .38 Special wad cutter 1911s but they had a very unique magzaine. They had a cross pin which rode in slot cut on each side of the mag. This forced the follower to tilt to the extreme angle necessary to load five rimmed .38Spl wad cutters into a 1911 magazine and have them feed.
I believe a similar set up could possibly be the solution for the Tokarev 1911 magazine. By forcing the cartridges into a steep angle the OAL issue goes away. The taper of the Tok' case allows the top cartridge to be at a some what normal feed angle while the lowest case will have a very nose up attitude. However, magazines require real time and effort (i.e., money) to develop, while the market in this case is small and some what based on cheep ammunition. I do not see too many who would be will to drop $50 each for such magazines.
Hi, I'm new to this forum, but have a Tokarov, love the fact that it's a Browning design, and solid, but like everyone else, want more rounds. My first thought was to find a double stack magazine that would take the Tokarov ammo straight out of the box, as it comes, and then cut and weld the Tokarov frame to take a double stack mag. With what I've read on this forum, I'll be looking at finding a worn out .45 barrel, ream it out, and silver solder part of a Mosin Nagant barrel, then chamber it for the Tokarov round.
Call it like you see it, but I don't see tilting the follower, allowing four or five rounds as being an improvement, and would sooner cut and weld two Tokarov magazines into one double stack, and modify the frame of the Tokarov to take such mags if I can't feed the ammo, as it is, through the magazine port of a .45. I've got a Rock Island and auto ordinance I'd like to be able to shoot out of.
An attempt at clarification of the capacities of various magazines in relation to 1911 patter firearms, as thus far discusses by myself in this thread:
1) Take any 1911 .38 Super magazine. You will be able to load between four(4) and six(6) Tokarev cartridges. Some when new will be harder to load. I have two CMC magazines which out the the wrapper would barely take four(4), but after some use, now accept six(6).
2) Cartridges loaded to a shortened overall length, similar to the .38 Super will fit and feed to the capacity of the magazine. e.g., Wilson 47SX magazines which are nine(9) round .38 Super magazines are also nine(9) round Tokarev magazines when appropriately shorted cartridges are used. Like wise a Caspian .38 Super Hi-Cap magazine which accepts nineteen(19) .38 Super cartridges will also accept nineteen(19) 7.62x25mm cartridges of the same shortened overall loaded length.
3) The tilting follower magazine design is an idea to allow a loading of standard Tokarev cartridges in a normal quantity in a 1911, i.e., seven(7) to eight( 8 ) rounds. This magazine design is based on a five(5) round .38 Special Wad Cutter magazine used in purpose built Bulls Eye competition 1911s. However, the cost of developing this magazine when weighed against the potential market for this magazine makes it unlikely to ever see the light of day.
I wonder how the Viet Cong were able to make the .45 slides work with the 7.62x25?
They just sleeved the barrels is what I've seen so far and then hacked around on them till they worked.
Nothing fancy.
How about a double stack 1911 platform? Would there be enough room to fanigle (technical term) the Tok rounds in one of these?A wide body 1911 capable of feeding .38 Super should be no better or worse then a single stack 1911 capable of feeding .38 Super for conversion to Tokarev. The mags for the wide body guns I am aware of do not allow any longer an overall length then the SS frames. This includes Para Ord, STI, SVI, and Caspian wide body frames.