Need some help diagnosing an issue that's come up after I replace a broken hammer strut about a year ago. Pistol is a Springfield Armory mid 80's vintage, I'm the original owner. I did some work on it after I first purchased it but nothing too extensive (little bit on the trigger, sights etc).
Was shooting at the range about a year ago and had switched ammo (I reload my own) from a 200 grain semi-wadcutter to a 230 grain plated round nose. Powder load was middle for both, not too hot not too light. The hammer strut broke as I was working through my second box of the heavier rounds. Ordered the replacement in (from Brownells, not Springfield), replaced it. Before I replaced the hammer strut I was regularly shooting 2 - 2 1/2 inch groupings at 20 yards (with the 200 grain loadings). Since then I'm all over the paper with both 200 grain and 230 grain loads. Nothing else has changed on the gun. I've played with it, fiddled around a bit but haven't really seen any improvement. Found a couple of articles that have me questioning the timing but I don't understand why it would show up after replacing the hammer strut.
I've considered taking it to a gunsmith but a) i'm not sure how much $$ I want to put into it, and b) I'm in Canada - there are good gunsmiths around just not as plentiful as south of the border and the trick is to find someone who's good with the 1911A1 style pistols.
So before I go down that route thought I'd see if anyone had any thoughts or suggestions.
Yours is the weirdest one so far today. Hmm-m-m. I've no answer handy, but wonder if maybe whatever caused the strut to break - if it was something besides a lousy strut - might also be the cause of groups getting bigger.
In other words, maybe the new strut's not the problem at all. Maybe the problem's whatever killed the old one. Maybe. Kinda. Sorta.
Yeah that's the question isn't it... I've thought about that one over the past year as well. As for what broke the old hammer strut... well the gun is just shy of 25 years old. I figure I've put somewhere between 5000 and 10000 rounds through it over that time. It's always had a steady diet of 200grain bullets loaded more or less the the same way (specifically 4.7 grains winchester 231, winchester large pistol primers). I suppose it could have gone on its own. maybe.
dunno...
The replacement hammer strut was a ??? brand from Brownells (I'd have to look it up to see what I ordered) could always try ordering a replacement direct from Springfield... see if that makes any difference...
I'm asking myself how a thingy that pushes on the hammer could possibly affect a bullet going down the same barrel locked into battery in the same frame? If there is an answer, you have come to the right place as the forum is littered with very bright guys and gals.
I'm hoping to pick some brains out and about before I go to a 'smith. It's kind of like when the dentist says your kids need braces. In some cases it's real obvious in others you sometimes want that second or third opinion.
This just doesn't make any sense to me. I'm inclined to think that the hammer strut wasn't the issue that it broke because of something else. Now I suppose it's possible that I put a double charge in one of 230 grain cartridges that I loaded. That said I'm normally very careful about that (and using a self indexing progressive press it shouldn't happen). BUT I suppose a double charge could overstress the hammer strut.
Ok. Double charge in the cartridge, mid load (room for about 1/2 grain more based on the published tables). What else would (or could) that do?
I just posted a warning up on the club site about Fxxxxxl and related brands factory .45 ammo and errors in powder charge there. The commercial manufacturers seem to do it from time to time. SO assuming that's what happened would 1 double charge mess up enough on the gun (beyond the hammer strut) to do this?
It's a quandary ..
Here's what a Ordnance strut is like...
...but I've no idea how Springfield Armory (SA) struts compare. Some gun makers don't stick to the plans. Perhaps a call to SA might prove informative.
Does your SA have the ILS? Does the ILS use a conventional hammer strut?
My 1911s are strictly old-school internals-wise, so I don't know anything about this. Just asking.
ILS... hmm... I'm honestly not familiar with that term.
Technically speaking it's a Springfield Armory 1911A1 - standard GI / Government type .45 pistol. It would be very similar to a colt Series 70. As far as I know the hammer strut used is standard interchangeable with any other "standard" .45 hammer strut part. I've got a question in with Springfield customer support to clarify that.
ILS = internal locking system has a special little key that inserts into the mainspring housing to lock the pistol.
That'd be no. I'm thinking that this was before ILS was introduced.
Let me put this in better perspective. I just picked up a Detonics Combat Master MK I pistol with 3 1/2" barrel (i've had the combat master for 2 weeks been out the the range with it twice) - I can shoot better groups with it at 20 yards that I can with the springfield with the replaced hammer strut. Springfield has target sights target trigger and some other basic enhancements (no comp tho).
Quote:
Now I suppose it's possible that I put a double charge in one of 230 grain
cartridges that I loaded.
This would, I think, be something you would immediately recognize and not soon, if ever, forget - even if you didn't have a Kaboom (case rupture, etc.). If you really did, I don't think you'd start to tell us about it by saying "...I suppose it's possible...".
But do you recall any such occurrence of horrendous recoil? Difficult extraction? Ruptured case? Magazine blown out of the gun? Slivers of grip panels in your hand? Blood? Missing fingers?
Well there's this stump where my hand used to be...
Honestly I don't think that's the issue (double charge). Switching from the 200 grain to 230 grain bullets felt different but not in an "I just blew my hand of" sort of way.
And before someone says anything alcohol and guns do not mix - I don't drink and shoot (I put the drink down first).
Just kidding ...
Lots to think about here. I'm almost tempted to look at having a 'smith look it over (for anything obvious to him that I wouldn't recognize), and if it can't be fixed for reasonable $$ have him install and fit a new barrel and bushing and see if that fixes the problem (unless he does find something else) - if it is timing and they're properly fitted that should do it.
I am definitely not an expert in this area and I'm not going to monkey with that on my own.
I guess I was hoping that someone might have recognized something that I didn't see / didn't know about that might have led to an easy fix.
Quote:
have him install and fit a new barrel and bushing and see if that fixes the
problem (unless he does find something else) - if it is timing and they're
properly fitted that should do it.
If the timing you're referring to is the linkdown timing of the barrel http://www.m1911.org/testkit.htm , as far as I know the installation of an incorrect strut won't change that one little bit. The hammer & strut don't even need to be installed when checking it. In addition, by the time the barrel starts to move within the slide (and sights), the bullet has left the barrel. But I'm still stumped, so here's some more questions to make up for my lack of clairvoyance:
Q: Is the same barrel bushing installed (even though you said nothing was changed on the gun but the strut)?
Q: Are the sights still tight?
Q: When the groups opened up, did they open up vertically?
Q: Were any changes made to you reloading procedures or components about the same time?
Q: How's the gun shoot with factory ammunition?
IMHO... after 10,000 rounds, I would think it's time for a new barrel anyway. I would say start at the obvious. Slug the barrel and see what you get. It may be just time to replace some worn parts.
Quote:
Before I replaced the hammer strut I was regularly shooting 2 - 2 1/2 inch
groupings at 20 yards (with the 200 grain loadings).
I consulted my Magic 8 Ball and it keeps asking...
Have the "bullets" changed???
Quote:
IMHO... after 10,000 rounds, I would think it's time for a new barrel
anyway.
Chris I'm really leaning in this direction I'm just hoping to learn more about the cause before I put much $$ into this. The alternative is to scrap this one entirely (some of the parts are going to be good still) and just replace it.
Looks like I have several things to do here. This was posted from another site that I follow (posted the same question there).
If the hammer strut pin is not installed correctly, or out of spec, under recpoil it will cause the hammer to bind as it rotates around the hammer pin. This can delay or retard the opening of the slide and cause timing issues. Anything that makes the gun hard to cock could contribute to the problem.
I think - before I go running off to a gunsmith I'm going to
a) put in a Springfield hammer strut (that way I know it'll be to spec for this gun)
b) slug the barrel
I've been looking over the supplies I've been using... .45 bullets (cast lead and cast lead/plated) are sized to .452 for lead, .451 for plated (from the two main suppliers that I've been using).
Once I've slugged the barrel try a different bullet if that's what's needed and see how it shoots.
At this point if I'm still having problems then I'll be looking at a gunsmith and go from there depending on his advice, possibly looking at barrel/bushing etc.
Quote:
Does your SA have the ILS? Does the ILS use a conventional hammer
strut?
My 1911s are strictly old-school internals-wise, so I don't know anything about this. Just asking.
One thought comes to mind re: breaking a hammer strut. If the strut bottoms out before the slide completely clears the hammer, the strut is being pounded with every shot. It can flex enough to hide the symptom methinks, until fatigues finally kills it.
How would the strut bottom? Mainspring stacking?
Quote:
How would the strut bottom? Mainspring stacking?
Good thinking, Walt! Hmm-m-m. How about if the MSH pin was not fully inserted. That would keep the retainer up farther than normal making less room for the spring?
Edit: This doesn't cause any binding in my Petunia with a new Colt 23lb mainspring, but maybe the OP's gun is different.
I have seen mainspring stacking, so I know it is possible. That was a Wolff 23 lb mainspring in an RIA widebody's MSH. I trimmed the strut, and then when that left the hammer a little loose at the top, I trimmed the cap to bring the bottom of it higher.
Quote:
If the strut stops the hammer first, even if a little bit...
Ok this is probably a dumb question - I've never looked for that before... what am I looking for... I cock back the hammer and... ?
What you'd be looking for, I think, is a condition that can no longer be created because your original strut broke. But if you could magically put it back together, install it and pull the hammer back, the hammer's travel would be halted by the mainspring being compressed to its solid length - instead of being halted by the hammer spur contacting the grip safety.
The thinking being that if this was indeed the situation in you gun, then the repetition of this - and the resulting repeated impact on the strut - is what caused the strut to fail. But none of this, I don't think, could explain why your groups opened up.
This is just part of the brainstorming process we go through when trying to come up with an answer. We don't know - but we're trying to!
The hammer doesn't actually stop when the mainspring stacks; the strut starts flexing. It feels very different than the mainspring.
Ok guys thoughts on this (please & thanks ...)
I haven't had a chance to get out to the range since I posted this BUT ...
I did strip the Springfield down and went over it top bottom, gave it a good cleaning, dug out the lead remover and worked it through the barrel etc etc.
While I had it apart I - with the grip safety removed, hammer, hammer strut, sear etc - all of that still in place - slowly put the mainspring housing back in place. Without the grip safety (bright light shining in so I could see) watched carefully as I cocked the hammer back. Could see very clearly how the mainspring moved. In fact without the grip safety in place it was possible for the hammer to "over travel" (if you know what I mean). Again watching carefully. There's was no point in the hammer's travel back to fully cocked position where the hammer strut "stacks"... there's sufficient depth in the mainspring housing for the hammer strut to "over travel" without flexing. I'm 100% sure from what I could see.
So good thing to watch for but - at least with the replacement strut - not the issue.
I'm hoping the the lead remover did the trick. I've got some new 200gr cast semi-wadcutters that I'm loading up for the weekend (will be the same load that I've always used - same powder same primers etc) so we'll see if there's any difference. Fingers crossed...
Quote:
in post 37 you said you "stripped the pistol down" did that include taking
the mainspring housing apart?
I didn't take the mainspring housing apart... didn't think of it... but that's easy to fix (or do) when I get home from work tonight. When I was playing with it where I had the grip safety out it the hammer was moving smoothly - there was nothing (that I observed) to indicate any problems... but removing the mainspring housing, taking it apart checking it out... that's easy enough to do.