I have a new loaded SA, purchased many months ago. I refinished in gunkote (blasted, parked, sprayed, baked). For some reason, I only just noticed this: I shake the gun, and it rattles. I can move the slide from side to side, and I can see the movement; there is next to no vertical movement, however.
So I broke out my calipers, and here's what I have, based on the rear of the frame and slide:
groove-to-groove on frame: 0.625"
rail-to-rail on slide: 0.640625"
This makes a difference of 0.015625"... after many hours searching posts, it seems that this is WAY too loose. But am I measuring correctly? When I read about lateral play, I don't know if this is rail-to-rail on the slide, say, or half the measurement: i.e., the distance from slide rail to frame groove, when the slide is centered on the frame. Even so, half of what I measure is almost 0.008"... still loose, I would say.
Would you say it's off to a smith? The gun shoots wonderfully (a few hundred rounds, no problems at all), but this rattling has me concerned, especially so loose on a new gun.
The rails and slides are seldom perfectly uniform in width for the entire length. Add to that there are different ways to limit lateral play and just measuring the parts of the gun is not going to give an accurate answer.
Use the depth feature on a caliper and push the slide all the way to one side, then measure the depth from the side of the slide to the frame at a couple of points. The push the slide to the other side and measure again (try and get the same spots). This will give a decent functional value for the play.
If the vertical grouping is very good but you are still having horizontal spread the play may be the cause. It usually takes a very good shot, sandbags, or a Ransom rest to determine the exact cause of spreading.
I was told once that the gun should function perfectly and it should mechanically repeat itself for each and every shot. Perfect repetiton will equal accuracy. If it is loose when open, it makes little difference to the accuracy when closed except it may accelerate the wear of those same parts and change the accuracy down the road a ways. I understand however you are talking about loose when closed. If you can take that out when closed it should improve the grouping somewhat. Several people have told me that the slide frame fit is only the last few % of accuracy. Of course sloppy fit would make it more so I guess. Good luck.
Ok, here's the rundown:
brickeye: measuring the depth gives the following:
left side, front (just before dustcover ends): 0.015625" play
left side, middle (just behind slide stop notch): 0.0078125" play
left side, rear (just above thumb safety): 0.0078125" play
The right side is pretty much the same. Also, I haven't a digital vernier, I'm using the cheap General model 721.
It's very easy to get error with this thing, but the numbers should give one an idea... they're the decimal equivalent of the fractions obtained off the vernier scale, so I can't do much better than +/- 1/128", this vernier's tolerance.
Joni Lynn, it's not so much the accuracy that I'm driving for... I can live without a match-grade gun. I am more concerned about longevity... especially since I've the above tolerances on a new gun... not to mention the rattle is annoying
I have a Series 70 Colt Gold Cup that was loose enough to rattle. I sent it off to Bob Krieger so he could install his Accu Rail system. Now it is extemely snug. Gee, just like it's running on rails... lol
While a 64th of an inch is a lot of slop, there's another set of dimensions to consider. Groove to groove in the slide... or the distance between the ways, and rail to rail distance of the frame. It's entirely possible to have as much slop in the dimensions that you've described, and still have a tight gun. Ideally, all those dimensions should have good tolerances... which is known as full rail contact. I like to see about .003 to .005 inch... which is a very tight gun by ordnance standards. Much tighter than that, and reliability can suffer when the gun gets a little dirty or dry. Unfortunately, there aren't many production guns that reach that ideal. It's pretty much a custom operation, either by welding and recutting the rails, or by buying a matched slide and frame set from a high-end supplier like Caspian, partially fitted to about 98% and finish lapping the two. Filing and stoning to within a half-thou and finish lapping with J&B Bore cleaner is another approach. I've used both with about equal results. In the absence of J&B, Du Pont Rubbing Compound is a reasonably good substitute.
The dimension of the slide ways is a little tricky to measure without the proper tools, and the lateral play is less important than the vertical anyway.
A little "rattle" won't really hurt anything, as long as it's not excessive. It takes a LOT of rattle before functional reliability suffers, and as long as the barrel is mated well to the slide, you'd need a Distinguished Expert shooter to see any sort of practical difference in accuracy.
A little more reliable yardstick is to push the slide hard to one side as far as it will go, and measure off the slide to the side of the frame... Then push it in the opposite direction, measure again, and subtract the difference. Chances are very slim that you'll see the same .015 difference.
In short... Don't be too concerned with a little slop in the gun. A little was built in to insure reliability under adverse conditions.
There is very little vertical slide play, barely discernible; in addition, the barrel locks up tight when the gun is in battery... I can move the slide on the frame, but pushing down on the barrel hood or muzzle does nothing. That's good.
As I said, it's the lateral play that's causing concern. I've tried your suggested method, 1911tuner, except I measured way to way on the frame (not the slide), and rail to rail on the slide (not the frame); the numbers are in the first post, and are clearly different from the numbers of the depth/deflection method you and brickeyee suggest. From both sets of numbers, however, it's clear that there's at least 1/128" play. But just how much rattle is A LOT of rattle, as you say? I don't mind a little slop, but even you seem to think this is a lot.
It seems that this is simply a sloppy lateral fit. I would possibly have considered Acc-u-rail, but it's very difficult and painful to send a firearm out from where I live. I guess this limits me to peening the rails, or pinching the slide, as I doubt many smiths go the welding route. Peening is more common, as I understand, but addresses vertical play more so than lateral play. Is squeezing the slide advisable, even if taken to a smith?
I pinched the slide in a vise where the frame rails end and left the pistol in the vise for a few days on each end. The American Gunsmith video I watched said to hit the vise with a hammer while the slide was in the vise to "shock" or set the metal... sounded kind of dubious to me, but I did it anyway.
I should mention i did this on my $350 beat up used Norinco. I'd have second thoughts doing it on my SA Loaded... especially if the pistol is stainless, but the gun is noticably tighter now.
I suppose when you do that you pad the jaws with something. What did they recommend? What did you use?
I forget what the gunsmith in the AGI video used (aluminum?)... I used leather pads I bought from Brownells. I tightened them down as hard as I could (with the frame in the slide)... gave the vise a whack with my hammer and let it sit for a few days... came back a few days later and did the back of the slide.
The Wilson video mentioned some caveats on some slides... I forget, some of the older Colts had relatively brittle steel so you could crack them and they're pretty much irreplacable but they were pinching the slide without the frame inside the slide. They recommended not trying it on stainless pistols. I noticed Clark Customs doesn't do slide/frame fitting on stainless guns. They will only do their slide guide for stainless.
I like the idea of the slide guide except for one thing. It would exert some downward pressure on the end of the dustcover. This could cause a crack to develop as has been seen on some guns that develop a crack with no help at all needed. With my luck it would crack right away. (Murphy is my neighbor)
Just so I understand, you put the slide in the vise with or without the frame?
I had Clarks tighten up my Colt Gold Cup series 80 back when Mr Clark was still alive. They did a good job, but it has started to loosen up a bit since then. Still shoots great though
Quote:
Just so I understand, you put the slide in the vise with the frame also or
without the frame?
I left the frame in the slide. The Wilson and AGI videos pinched the slide w/o the frame... I was afraid to pinch it w/o the frame since with my mechanical abilities I probably would have cracked the slide. But their method took 15 seconds... I tried my method for 15 seconds and it didn't do squat... that's why the pistol ended up in the vise for 3-4 days...
Quote:
...I had Clarks tighten up my Colt Gold Cup Series 80 back when Mr Clark
was still alive. They did a good job, but it has started to loosen up a bit
since then. Still shoots great though
They have a tune-up package for guns they have worked on before... I forget the price... you might want to give them a call.
I didn't have my gun tuned by them, only had the slide tightened. I got along ok with Mr Clark, however since his passing, I have been extremely unimpressed with his son and his personality as concerns women and guns. Enough said on that.
If my Gold Cup loosens much more it will have Kreiger Accu Rails installed. I have them on my series 70 Gold Cup and it really works well.
An old armorer's trick to prevent hearing the dreaded "tink" of a slide cracking is to heat the slide to about 200 degrees before setting it in the vise, and limiting the squeeze to about .003 inch. Leave the slide in the vise until it cools to room temp. Let the slide heat for an hour to get a full heat sink, and get it in the vise within 60 seconds after removing it from the oven.
I don't like to pinch slides, but it's a viable alternative to welding the frame rails when there's only a little lateral play to remove. Likewise for peening or swaging the frame rails. Both operations should be limited to a very small amount. Neither one should be considered a quick-fix for a badly- worn slide/frame set.
In any event, the set should be cold-fitted afterward if the slide won't make full travel easily. Bare frame and slide/barrel/bushing assembly... The slide should make full travel rearward and go to battery under gravity by tilting the pistol at a shallow angle. If the slide sticks in full rearward travel because of the wedging action of the slide ways and frame rails, break it loose by hand and test for full return to battery.
For cold-fitting, you may need to use a little J&B Bore Cleaner...either straight up or as a slurry diluted with CLP Breakfree or other similar teflon- based lubricant. If the fitting needed is only slight, a light oil alone may do the trick. I suggest Marvel Mystery Oil or sewing machine oil. If an abrasive agent is used, rinse thoroughly with carburetor cleaner...NOTwith brake cleaner or Birchwood Casey Gun Scrubber.
I dropped by the range today, and asked the person in charge to have a look at my gun. She said the play isn't too bad, and that I could have the pistol tightened if I wanted to, but that this would be a waste of effort and money, in her opinion... for her, it was simply a question of cosmetics. The barrel lock-up is rock-solid, and that's where it counts... provided there isn't up to a half inch of slide play on either side
To compare, she showed me her bullseye pistol... one of several she has used to win a few competitions. Her pistol was a little tighter than mine, but negligibly so... and this was a custom-fitted bullseye gun. Albeit her pistol was fifteen years old and broken in well, she says I shouldn't worry about my gun, despite it being new: it's not a custom piece, and some run-of-the-mill ordnance spec production guns are looser than others. I suppose I'm not too disappointed, but still a tad annoyed with the rattle... probably because I can be anal about these things I'll have to mull it over.
She also showed me a brand-new SA GI .45 that made me drool... I love the basic, military look, sure wish I had a wad of cash to plink down for this blaster The gun hissed on the rails, it was much tighter than the bullseye pistol... and the SA GI is supposed to be ordnance spec! I guess tolerances can be all over the place, even between specimens of the same company (GI .45 vs. my loaded).
So, if the gun were yours, would you bother having it tightened? I seem to need the wind to make up my mind
If your gun shots well now, I would leave it alone, at least for now. Lots of guns shoot very well and still have a small amount of play. If you aren't using a frame mounted optic mount there is not all that much accuracy to be gained by tightening the fit further. If her gun is as loose as yours maybe she can let you try it. Shooting someone else's gun can often be enlightening. Mechanical accuracy is about having the barrel and the sights in the same exact position relative to each other for each shot. A tight slide has very minimal effect on this. Shoot well, shoot safe!!
Slide squeezing with the frame is not likely to be very productive. You run the risk of setting the frame in and after spring back having made no real change.
Lead sheet is the best lining material to use for work like this. No chance of marring the slide, a relatively low 'give' after taking up gaps, and soft enough to conform to gaps.
I made a version of the "X" clamp Brownells has some years ago and still use it when required.
Squeezing is a little risky; older slides are sometimes over hardened and brittle. The metal on any slide springs back, so it requires more squeeze than the final change desired (this adds more risk on a brittle slide). I run about 3-5 mils past the desired point, allow everything to set for a few hours, and then loosen the vice. I never move more than about 10 mils without a good soak in the oven for a few hours at about 500F. A hot squeeze and cooling in the vice lessens spring back, but it does not go away at these temperatures.
This is really something often only required on a Bullseye gun for relatively high competition levels. Not trying to be insulting or anything, but you need to be a very good shot to take advantage of a minimum play .45. They are rarely suitable for anything but game playing (Bullseye, IPSC, etc). There are no alibis in self defense.
I decided to give squeezing a try. I placed the slide in a vice and tightened; I could see the slide rails begin to bow, but as soon as I loosened the vice, the bow disappeared. From what you're saying, the slide should remain in the vice for several hours... maybe I should give that a try... then again, I'm beginning to get tired of my own paranoia, maybe I should just leave the bloody thing alone.
For some time, I've been using a GI plug, having replaced the FLGR the gun came with, since the open plug is a little hard on my fingers. I thought I would give the FLGR a try again, just to see what happens... curiously, the slideplay is dampened substantially; I REALLY have to shake to hear the pistol rattle. The play is still there, but the slide is more stable on the frame rails, and needs greater push to get it to play. I can't quite explain this; an FLGR presumably stabilises the recoil spring, but how does would it stabilise the slide?
Another mystery, I suppose.