I picked up a nice new Springfield Champion .45 about 8-9 years ago. One of the big things I guess back then was to polish the feed ramp and frame to make your gun more reliable.
Since then Ive put approx. 600-700 rounds through her. Three weeks ago, we all went out to shoot my new High Standard AR-15 and I brought the champion along with two other full size 1911's that Ive purchased the past few years.
The champion started hanging up using hollow point Ranier reloads right at the intersection of the frame and ramp. A light tap at the back of the slide would release it and it would subsequently feed the remaining magazine with no problems. I figured it was due to the ranier bullet being one of the tougher loads to feed a 1911.
Then it started happening to ball loads.
I got home and field stripped the pistol for cleaning and seen my old ramp job. I wondered what I could have done to cause the feed problem. This is when I stumbled onto this site. It really sucks to make this my first post but after searching through this site I am appalled at what I have done.
Here are pics of the damage.
The pictures may be a little deceiving but the ramp does not protrude past the frame. I did not take any material off the ramp and only polished it. As you can see I did radius the top of the frame slightly and polished the frame below the ramp and the sides.
What I see happening is the round will slide forward while being fed from the slide. There seems to be more of a gap for some reason between the frame and bottom of the feed ramp. The round will push forward and the barrel will move forward slightly giving the nose of the round a place to park. Had I not radiused the frame slightly where the frame meets the bottom of the barrel ramp there would be no problem and I would only had an amatuer polish job.
My thoughts are that the barrel link has stretched slightly from use over time to cause this event to start happening.
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Exactly... and that's why I cringe whenever a member with a feed/return to
battery issue comes up... and usually the first advice is to start polishing
on the ramp and throat... and I go into conniptions when it's accompanied by
the word "Dremel." rest assured that my dremel died about four years ago and I
never bought another. My other firearms have not been raped by me.
So now, after I get my thrashing from you folks, could you help me out with a few options? I would like to send the gun off to a reputable smith who can hopefully fix my gun. After searching this site for a few weeks (and getting the nerve to make this post) Ive seen some of the pictures of other abortion ramp jobs and I dont think mine is quite as bad.
At any event, Im ready for my beating. *puts flame suit on*
If it makes you feel any better ive been surfing 1911 forums for a while now and I've seen MUCH worse.
My first suggestion would be to replace the recoil spring with a 20# or a 22# spring. I have seen worse polishing jobs that still fed ammo. With a heavier spring, the slide will be moving foward at a faster speed and might just force the cartridge up the ramp. Try www.brownells.com as they have a wide variety of springs and other gun related items.
I'd say that if you go that rout to get the stock spring weight as yours might just be worn out. Overspringing the 1911 is a bad idea it adds extra pressure on the slide when it comes back and could cause more problems then it solves.
Well I appreciate you guys being so forgiving so far. I had thought of a heavier spring but I am afraid that would only be a bandaid fix. My concern is with the pistol acquiring this issue over time. Did the linkage grow somehow or something else wear to the point it has aggravated my precision ramp job?
I hate to have a firearm such as this one at a questionable state and would rather pony up and pay for my wrong doing by going a better more permanent and reliable route.
You said it was 9 years old, maybe the recoil spring is tired . How many rounds through it? Try a new WOLFF SPRING ( www.gunsprings.com) in the stock spring weight(I believe it is 16 lbs). I use 18.5 lbs WOLFF springs in my COLT and it is like the EVER-READY RABBIT (it just keeps going,and going ,and going). WOLFF suggests replacing springs every 5000 rounds or so.
I think it would take more than 700 rounds to stretch a barrel link. Since it's the easiest to do, I'd try a new recoil spring.
Relax. You haven't ruined the frame. Radiusing the top of the feed ramp applies to pistols with the standard, non-ramped barrels.
Integral ramps sometimes give problems with feeding and return to battery because of their steep angle, and some require a secondary... or "booster" angle at the top. Your picture seems to indicate that you got a start on this, so it's not likely that this is where the problem is. Instead, it sounds like the round is nose-diving into the ramp, and combined with the overly steep angle, produces a stoppage that wouldn't occur if the bullet nose struck the ramp with the ogive instead of straight on with the nose.
Since the problem has gotten progressively worse, I'd first suspect the magazine... specifically the spring. Remove the extractor and clean it and its channel thoroughly. Clean the breechface and all the corners, nooks, and crannies in the area too. A new recoil spring may also help, but avoid going to anything heavier than what was OEM/standard for the gun.
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Relax. You haven't ruined the frame. Radiusing the top of the feed ramp
applies to pistols with the standard, non-ramped barrels.
God thank you! After browsing this forum for a few weeks and reading alot of your posts I was hoping you would chime in on this one. Thanks 1911Tuner, and the rest of you guys for the help so far and not beating me up. I respect a forum where you can be honest and get an honest answer.
I will completely clean the gun and look into getting a replacement spring right away.
I was able to catch photos of the hangup in action. I was just out in the shop and dropped the slide on a full magazine and, sure enough, it did it. I had my camera close by so I carefully took pictures of it. Now at this point the round has pushed the barrel forward as far as the link will allow. You cant see it but the botton of the ramp is well in front of the radius I added to the frame. The gap between the frame and the bottom of the ramp is also greater from the round pushing on the barrel. This looks like it creates a ledge.
also puts a slight indent on the nose of the round, Possibly like you mentioned, 1911Tuner, that the round is nose-diving. Ill give the mags a thorough inspection and cleaning.
Here is a pic of the round that was hung-up in the above photos. I took a black marker and darkened/wiped off the indentation leaving a small dash mark. The arrow signifies the orientation of the round when it occured where the arrow points to the top of the slide.
In the mean time, do you have a recommendation for a good smith in AZ that can look this over? Is there something that can be done to reduce the gap between the botton of the barrel (ramp) and the frame (just below the ramp)? Any other machining that can be done to clean up my work? Its such a sweet little pistol, I feel like one of my kids has fallen and I need to help her up!
As far as the booster angle at the top, I limited my polishing to the ramp only. Not the underside of the ramp nor the top. I can see what you mean by steep angle and an angle up there would help direct a pointed-up round into the chamber. Never had any kind of a jam like that with this gun.
Had the same problem from the factory. Try a magazine first.
Induce the stoppage again, and push down on the barrel hood to see if it lets the round chamber. Might want to use a popsicle stick or something similar.
Check to see if the barrel is riding the link.
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Induce the stoppage again, and push down on the barrel hood to see if it
lets the round chamber. Might want to use a popsicle stick or something
similar.
Check to see if the barrel is riding the link.
If I push down on the barrel hood it will chamber. I dont understand what you mean by riding the link however.
I also completely disassembled the slide completely and gave it a good scrubbing. Extractor, firing pin all looked tight & right. I proceeded to reassemble the pistol minus the recoil spring. This allowed me the insert a loaded magazine and slowly push the slide forward so I can look and see whats is going on.
The slide starts the round forward out of the magazine and as the round conitinues forward it progressively nose-dives. This will only occur with 4 or more rounds in the magazine. I proceeded to disassemble both magazines and scrub them down in my parts washer (mineral spirits), blew them out with air and re assembled. I also checked the lips for any burs or nicks. none.
1911Tuner, your assumption was correct and looks like I have a magazine problem. The magazine shells seem to be straight and undamaged. I suppose this as you say is a sping problem but I dont understand how. Ive never purchased just the magazine spring before but I assume they sell them separate?
Gun show this weekend, I may look for a couple good brand new mags for it. Any that I should avoid?
First... What kinds of magazines are you using now?
Before you go drop money on more magazines... try this:
Break the mag down and put a slight upward bend in the top coil of the spring to put tension on the front of the follower. If you have a sheet metal follower, clamp it in a vise as close to the bend as possible, and lever up slightly on it to keep the round on a more upward angle as the slide strips it.
This should show some improvement, though without a good spring, it either won't cure it completely, or it won't last long.
I highly recommend Wolff extra-power springs if your magazines will accept them. The standard springs won't work with Wilson 8-round mags or Metalform 7- rounders with the round-topped followers, nor with Mecgar mags with the OEM followers.
Ok, called Wolff and I have two magazines (came new with the gun) that use a bastard spring and follower setup according to them. They were very helpful and I have on its way, 3 new 11lb mag springs, 3 Colt followers, and 1 standard recoil spring. The mag springs and followers came in 3packs.
As soon as the springs get here I will install and report back.
Okay! Now... While you're waitin' for the delivery, remove the extractor and flip the slide upside down. You'll see two, small square guide rails under the breechface. The extractor passes through one of'em. Use your dial caliper to measure the distance between those rails. You want to see a minimum of .480 inch. .484-.488 is about ideal. Check the breechface to be sure that it's smooth, with no burrs around the firing pin hole.
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Now... While you're waitin' for the delivery, remove the extractor and flip
the slide upside down. You'll see two, small square guide rails under the
breechface. The extractor passes through one of'em. Use your dial caliper to
measure the distance between those rails. You want to see a minimum of .480
inch. .484-.488 is about ideal. Check the breechface to be sure that it's
smooth, with no burrs around the firing pin hole.
Hope i did this correctly. This is the smallest mesurement I could get keeping the caliper as squared up as i could. .483
This is fun! Holler if you have anything else you need me to do on this pistol for ya!
By the way that looks like a booger on the breech between my calipers but is a piece of lint from the towel protecting the slide in the vise. I feel nothing on the breechface or around the firing pin hole as far as burrs, etc.
.483 should be okay, thought I like to see something closer to .488 inch. Just wanted to rule that out before you dropped a buncha hard-earned green on magazines and upgrades. Back to square one. Most likely cause would be mag springs.
Now... Just for funsies. See if it'll feed okay without the extractor.
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Now... Just for funsies. See if it'll feed okay without the extractor.
Pistol hung-up on third release of the slide.
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.483 should be okay, thought I like to see something closer to .488 inch.
Just wanted to rule that out before you dropped a buncha hard-earned green on
magazines and upgrades.
I gather if this tolerance is too small the firearm could fail to complete full battery and too large would result in slop and failure to extract..?
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I gather if this tolerance is too small the firearm could fail to complete
full battery and too large would result in slop and failure to extract?
Failure to go to battery if too close, but loose wouldn't have an effect on the extraction.
Anyway... We've ruled out the extractor... so on to the mag springs.
Well I received my mag springs, followers, and recoil spring today. I am disappointed to say that the problem still exists.
I notice when a full magazine is inserted, if I slowly release the slide while holding onto it I can watch the round nose-dive for about the first 1/2" of travel. Doesnt matter if a full mag or just a few rounds in it.
I also installed the new recoil spring which is standard weight. I do notice how much harder you need to pull the slide now as there is a considerable differance there. The recoil spring came with a smaller spring - I guess its the firing pin spring?
I'm bummed.
So what now? Could the magazine shells be the problem? They appear to be just fine and feed lips are not bent or otherwise damaged.
Malapai said:
I notice when a full magazine is inserted, if I slowly release the slide
while holding onto it I can watch the round nose-dive for about the first 1/2"
of travel. Doesnt matter if a full mag or just a few rounds in it.
Well... We've eliminated all the obvious/simple things. The only place to go now is the feed ramp itself. The angle is a bit too steep on the barrels with integral ramps, and they sometimes need adjustment... which is a job for a smith with a mill and an understanding of the problem. Some will recut the whole ramp, and others will cut only what is needed to reduce the angle... known as a secondary, or "Booster" angle... on the top just at the point that the bullet nose strikes it.
Ok I can find a gunsmith but what about the nose diving? is this still an issue?
quote: but what about the nose diving? is this still an issue?
Not if the feed ramp angle is to spec (31 degrees) and the mag releases it correctly.
The last bunch of followers I ordered from metalform, the follower angle needed to be set on every one of 'em. Some were as much as 7 degrees off.
Lets also think about the mag catch for a minute before sending the gun off. If it is not holding the mag up high enough it doesn't matter what mags, angles, or anything else you have cooking there, it ISN'T going to work. If you have another 1911 that works well try swapping in the mag release and see what happens. If you don't have another try using a mag with an extended basepad on it, hold the mag up as far into the gun as you can and see how it cycles.
May not be the problem, but it can't hurt to check it out.