1911 Tuner:
I was reading your sticky on what not to do to .45 feed ramps and you stated: "This one is non-salvageable, due largely to the alloy frame... and will require a steel ramp insert."
Can such a frame have the feed ramp built up by welding and then reformed? Someone that does work on our institute's boats regularly welds aluminum for our boats.
Just curious since there are many guns that incorporate aluminum frames.
I've never heard of anyone heli-arcing an aluminum insert into a frame, nor simply building it up with weld, so I don't know that it would work with the specific alloys that are used... which doubtless vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. You may sweet-talk somebody at Colt to provide the alloy that they use and have a go at it. Maybe one of our experienced welders will chime in and provide better information.
I don't know how well it may work for building up a worn ramp area, but I've used this aluminum braze www.durafix.com to fix this cracked/broken alloy 1911 frame.
It's held up well for many years, but I did stop using the repaired frame with it's .45 top end. It's now a dedicated .22
The only way to properly weld aluminum is with a TIG welder. I used to own about $10,000 worth of welding equipment including a SERIOUS water cooled TIG welder (I was building race cars at the time). I also did a lot of boat (lower ends) and motorcycle (cracked forks)... If done properly it'll be "like new" as far as strength.
However, note that my minimum charge was $100 just to fire that puppy up, so you need to consider the cost...
With aluminum alloys, what is the resultant hardness (softness) of the heat affected zone?
All my experience has shown that it will be far too soft to withstand the forces acting on a 1911's feed ramp.
Steel inserts are the accepted fix. $100 or so plus shipping from several of the better pistolsmiths.
Game! Set! Match!
RogersPrecision said:
All my experience has shown that it will be far too soft to withstand the
forces acting on a 1911's feed ramp. Steel inserts are the accepted fix.
And that pretty much ends all speculation, ladies and laddies.
Quote:
With aluminum alloys, what is the resultant hardness (softness) of the heat
affected zone?
All my experience has shown that it will be far too soft to withstand the forces acting on a 1911's feed ramp.
Well, there's different alloy rods you can use, and again it should be similar to the original metal.
But, as pointed out, it'll never have the wear resistance of steel...Some aluminum alloys (6061-T6 comes to mind IIRC) are as "strong" as steel in regards tensile strength, and even have pretty good wear resistance, but even hardened aluminum is softer than steel, especially hardened steel, and will never resist wear as well.
The new "scandium" framed guns are actually an aluminum alloy with about 1/2% scandium. This makes the alloy significantly stronger. Another benefit is that the scandium minimizes grain growth when welded. When welding it's always much better if you know what metal and heat treatment you have!
As far as welding goes, as long as the frame is not 7075 alloy it should weld ok. As noted elsewhere many different alloys exist for filler rod, and choosing one would require some research. I would have no problem with a welded feed ramp; it has one of the lower stress jobs in a firearm (I've seen slides, cut in two, welded back together.) If the frame was heat-treated after casting/forging the heat from the welding process will eliminate it, having just one part professionally heat treated will probably be cost prohibitive (and you'll need to know the original specification), so I would try to "heat sink" the frame as best as possible. Hard anodizing the frame, on the other hand, after welding would make it more durable than new. Hard anodizing will "build" a little, don't try it unless your slide/frame fit can be tightened up .002"
If you don't have confidence in a weld or who you have weld for you (you should both know before hand), all is not lost, just go buy a ramped barrel.
The possibility of using welding was confirmed this morning when I talked to someone that also used to build race cars in Indianopolis and now repairs our boats. I had other questions about metal porosity that he also answered for me.
He said that only the softer aluminum alloys could not be welded.
I did not ask what it would cost to have it done commercially. We paid about $4,000 for his welder that he uses to fabricate items for our boats and I could see how someone could charge over $100 dollars just for the setup.
Guys... My advice is to take to heart what Chuck just posted. He's the man when it comes to this kind of repair. He does it every day, and has found out what works and what doesn't by paying his dues. The side benefit to a hardened steel insert is that the feed ramp doesn't get roughed up by whatever ammo or magazine you choose. Reliability and longevity are enhanced.
With many welders, if you bring beer you get a discount.
Seriously, I've done this in several parts of the country and it really does work.
So, need welding? Bring beer.
Well Tuner, I don't know if I repair feedramps EVERY day, but I have done a few.
To go back briefly on weld repairing aluminum feedramps... yes, the feedramp area can be welded. The unfortunate result is a feedramp too soft to last long. Especially with aggressive hollow points. Aluminum welds can be strong when done correctly, but it is going to be relatively soft.
Perhaps the entire frame could be re-heat treated, but I doubt it. It would most likely warp beyond use.
As to welding 7075 Al, which is what Kimbers are made out of, well it is generally considered 'not suited for welding'.
Ramped barrels? OK, $150 for the barrel, $150 for competent frame machining and fitting, and then you still only have steel for the first .315" of depth. The aluminum frame beneath the barrel's feed ramp, is STILL a critical point in the feed process.
Just so happens that I had a couple on the bench for this very repair.
Two Kimber frames. The one on the right has been damaged by poor choice in ammo. Ranger SXT's are kind to aluminum feed ramps. Golden Sabers and most frangible designs are not. The one on the left really does not require repair, but that is what the gunsmith requested.
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Frame set up for milling a pocket into the feed ramp area.
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Good view of the damage to one of them.
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Both frames milled for the inserts. The inserts can be seen sitting atop the frames. I think George Smith from EGW first developed this method of repair, and inserts, with instructions, can be purchased from him. I prefer to fabricate my own from 416 stainless steel.
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Drilling and tapping for the set screw. I locate the dimple in the insert, so that the conical point of this set screw pulls the insert down and into the pocket in the frame. The inserts are also lightly coated with JB Weld epoxy before final assembly.
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All spiffed up and ready for business!
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Another view of the finished insert.
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The set screw is hidden by the slide stop.
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An aluminum wear area has to be the stupidest design I've ever seen.
When did they start doing the LW frames? I'd figure the alloy is(was) tough enough for the original lead or copper-jacketed ball rounds.
Before hollowpoints there wasn't really anything other than the case mouth that had a sharp edge to deal with.
Carebear said:
Before hollowpoints there wasn't really anything other than the case mouth
that had a sharp edge to deal with.
It's usually more the front of the mag follower that does the damage. I've never seen the gouges pictured in any of my LW Commanders with ball or hollowpoint, mainly because I've never used the Devel-type mag followers.
The short rear leg doesn't keep the follower stable, and feeding the last round causes it to be pulled forward and down as the round feeds, striking the ramp.
Sometime back I bought a used Colt Defender with its original Colt mag. The follower had been coated by Colt with some sort of orange colored stuff that I think was intended to keep the follower from dinging the frame on the last round.
The very tip of the follower was worn off and matched the slight ding on the frame perfectly. I changed it to a nylon follower and did the same with my LW Colt commander before it got dinged. I had no problem with cases doing damage.
Wow. I asked one question and learned a lot from the excellent responses. The people on this site are very knowledgeable.
I always thought that feed ramps were messed up by home gunsmiths. It seems that any aluminum frame gun can be damaged by the magazine follower. It would seem that the smart thing to do during practice would be to fire only 5 of the seven rounds in the mag before loading and not go to slide lock to prevent the follower from striking the ramp and that aluminum frame guns should be avoided when purchasing a new gun that will be shot a lot.
I am not trying to be contentious here, but I must disagree once again.
The 'damage' done to aluminum feed ramps by 8rd magazine followers (McCormick mags) occurs low on the feed ramp. Too low, in fact, to negatively effect feeding. An exception to this may be a poor magazine that presents rounds lower than as designed, or in a pistol with an out of spec magazine catch.
I've seen many 1911's with this follower dent that fed with perfect reliability.
I can not keep up with every hollowpoint design and redesign on the market. But... the Golden Sabers that I am familiar with, have a sharp edge where the cavity meets the ogive. Early HydraShocks were bad as well.
'Frangible rounds' refers to the non-conventional ammo stipulated for indoor use at several of the larger schools. These rounds are composed of sintered copper/tungsten alloy designed to fragment into harmless powder when striking steel targets at close range. Many of them have a sharp meplat that can and will damage a feed ramp.
The later generation HydraShocks and the Ranger SXT's are kind to feed ramps. I would expect to see no problems after thousands of rounds... providing the proper alloy and heat treat were used in construction of the frame.
Experiences differ, I have just related mine.
RogersPrecision you may have point there. Feeding of cartridges into a gun will with time remove most feed ramp finishes showing that some sort of wear is taking place. Many aluminum alloys as on boats will leave a black coating on your hands from touching.
Loading .45 lead reloads with a strong crimp in brass cases would appear to be best from your point of view. The turned edge is less likely to contact the ramp.
I am starting to wonder if wolf steel case could wear out a steel ramp. For IDPA I use either steel cased wolf or aluminum cased blaser in steel frame guns. I have alway avoided alloy frames since they have a tendency to crack with prolonged use.
Can't dispute your experience, since you'll probably see more damaged aluminum feed ramps in a year than I've seen in 25. Should have been a little clearer. Allow me...
I've seen ramps damaged by bullet noses, and they do tend to be in the upper third. Mostly, the damage that I've seen has come from the old-style Hydra Shoks with the truncated cone shape... and I hear they've changed that a little. Even with those, the bullet damage that I've seen has usually been the result of boocoos of rounds fired, and /or from the owner polishing the hard anodizing off the ramp with a Dremel buffing wheel and an abrasive.
I've never fired a lot of hollowpoint rounds through my personally owned alloy framed guns, beyond what was needed to make sure that they would work... and what little use the guns saw after that was with ball or lead-bullet reloads. After function testing, I tend to put LW Commanders into the "Carried a lot and Seldom Shot" category.
Most of the damage that I've seen has been in the years since the debut of the Devel magazines... I think that was around 1981 or so... and though the damage has usually been low on the ramp... some was near the top. It seemed to vary according to the individual magazine, and more specifically the follower angle and spring tension. I've noticed this even on the guns that were shot almost exclusively with ball.
Since I long gave up on using anything other than standard 7-round magazines, I've never had a follower-damaged ramp.
So... A caveat is in order for owners of guns with alloy frames, if you plan to shoot'em a lot. Either stick to standard magazines... ball ammo... hollowpoints with ball-like ogives... magazines with skirted followers... or hire Chuck to do a hard steel insert for ya. The gun will last longer and run better, and you're not restricted as to ammo or magazines.
Tuner thinks highly enough of your work to convince me. I've learned a lot from him and trust his word. If I'm not being boorish, what's the ballpark price on getting an insert done? If you'd rather, I can PM you the particulars.
I realize that I might be overstepping boundries here by asking so feel free to point out my lack of proper channels.
Another demonstration of the inappropriateness of using aluminum as a wear point is the Walther P1. When Walther came out with the alloy frame (to save weight) the design had a steel locking block foot that locked up on an aluminum frame locking area. Because of reports of excessive wear, Walther put a steel hex pin at the point where the steel locking block was striking the aluminum frame. Problem fixed. In the P1 (as in other semiauto designs), the first cartridge in the magazine under the slide is held from moving up/down or sideways by the next cartridge/follower/mag wall/slide bottom. Because of the way the top front of the mag is cut the top cartridge can move forward under recoil and impact the frame ramp. After several hundred rounds, the FMJ cartridge nose impacts the ramp at the same spot and can and does break through the aluminum anodizing. Hence, a rough spot on an otherwise smooth aluminum frame ramp.
Don't Wilson combat mags make the follower dinging the feedramp a thing of the past?
The best I ever saw was a real gun expert showing me how his Kimber pro- carry could feed empty cases.
No that left quite a gouge!
I just bought an alloy framed Kimber and it has some damage to the feed ramp. Not as bad as what is pictured in this thread, but enough that I want to put a stop to it and make the gun long-term viable.
I gave Chuck Rogers a call today and I think I'll be sending it off to him soon...
Soon as I can save up a few more bucks.
Would another fix be hard chroming the entire gun? Anybody tried that?
The alloy is aluminum and it would be very difficult to properly hard chrome it. You could decorative chrome. Neither would fix the bad feed ramp which either needs metal removed and a steel insert pinned in or maybe have the area refilled with aluminum and reshaped. I'd vote for the steel insert and wonder why they didn't just mold the blasted things for the insert in the first place. Aluminum is NOT a wear surface.