Hi y'all. New problem. 4" Kimber alum. frame. Maybe 2,000 rnds - lots of hollow point stuff.
Just noticed some slight peening at the very top of the feed ramp kind of like bullet noses have been whacking it and pushing the metal forward. I felt a little bump when I was cleaning the frame bed after the last shoot - so inspected closely and saw the peening. I carefully removed the displaced aluminum with a few light strokes of a needle file without touching the feed ramp except at the very top. Smoothed things out with 400 wet or dry, again without messing with the face of the ramp - which is not polished except from bullet noses traveling up on their way to the chamber. It is kind of rough looking but feels pretty smooth.
Tuner caused me to throw my Dremel in the lake where it joined a few of my ex-wife's prized possessions, so no fear of Dremel action at my house.
There is still a small gap between the bottom of the barrel throat and the top of the frame ramp when the barrel is pushed back, but not much of a gap. Any more peening and I could end-up having to have a ramp insert installed to avoid you-know-what.
I switched to PowerBall for carry loads to avoid damage for the time being, but thought I should run this past the smart guys here to see if there is something else I should be doing.
I should tell you that this 4" lightweight is sprung with a 22lb Wolff XP spring made for this particular gun - or was - it how has a Commander 18lb spring with a couple of coils clipped off to go with the small radius FPS. If the 18 works well, I will try 16 next.
Like Tuner has said 4 quadrillion times, a heavy spring slows the backward movement and accelerates the forward movement of the slide. Could the heavy spring (and possibly somewhat short cycling but not to the point of dysfunction) have been contributing to the peening?
Are you sure that the marks you see are from bullets?
Some Kimber magazines have un-skirted followers, that seem to have a bad habit of wanting to follow the last round in the chamber. Not a big issue for a steel-framed pistol, but aluminum alloys are another story.
Not a Kimber owner myself, I should add, but this seems to crop-up every now and then.
I would love for someone with knowledge on this (rather than opinions) to inform. I have numerous aluminum frames and worry which magazine follower is proper to use. This is a design question rather than a brand question. I bought a CCO that has Colt magazines with orange nylon followers and a Defender with Colt magazines with a steel follower. I know the design of certain steel followers can damage feed ramps but which steel follower design? Pictures would help.
Quote:
I would love for someone with knowledge on this (rather than opinions) to
inform. I have numerous aluminum frames and worry which magazine follower is
proper to use.
Sir, what I offered wasn't even an opinion - strictly speaking, it was hear- say.
I do hear a lot, though. Here's something you may find more useful (including pictures). http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=15281
There's even more info on the matter in the magazines area of the forum, this link takes you to a sticky.
Photos of the problem would be nice.
If it continues I would be contacting Kimber to have the problem fixed.
I have an alloy framed Commander, and have never had that problem... and it was made in the 70's.
Its possible the bullet could be making the damage, but I would tend to doubt it.
Quote:
Its possible the bullet could be making the damage, but I would tend to
doubt it.
So do I. Althought it's possible... and maybe even probable... for jacketed hollowpoint bullets to do some damage to an aluminum frame over the course of enough use... it's most often the magazine follower that does it... and even then, the follower has to be able to contact the frame before it can damage it. Some magazines lend themselves to that, and some don't.
I shot about a half-dozen LW Commanders nearly to... or to... destruction over the years before I accepted that they weren't intended to be range beaters. They're designed and intended to be "Carried a Lot and Seldom Shot." On average, I've found that you can expect to start seeing issues at about 5,000 rounds. Those issues may or may not render the gun unserviceable... but they'll be there. This jives with Skeeter Skelton's torture test with the gun.
I never shot hollowpoints in any of the pistols on the range, other than what was necessary to prove the gun for a specific cartridge. Mostly is was hardball or cast lead...but I also never used any magazine other than the standard, 7-round magazine as designed by Colt many years ago. The feed lip geometry may have varied a little...but the spring and follower design didn't... and I never had a gouged ramp on any of those pistols. Worn rails... cracks... battered impact abutments... yep. Gouged feed ramps? Nope.
If you want a Commander to shoot... get a Combat Commander and shoot it 'til your ears curl forward and fall off. LW Commanders were intended to be carried... not shot 10,000 rounds a year.
Quote:
Sir, what I offered wasn't even an opinion - strictly speaking, it was hear-
say.
Don't misunderstand. I wasn't referring to you or your post.
I was trying to understand the design of the magazine follower to avoid. I didn't want to get into the discussion of brand X or brand Y is better than all the rest merely because of the brand name.
It was hard to understand why steel followers that may damage aluminum frames came with my Defender when it seemed more logical that my CCO came with nylon followers.
I appreciate the link. It helps a lot. I am paranoid about self inflicting damage to my frames.
Quote:
I was trying to understand the design of the magazine follower to avoid. I
didn't want to get into the discussion of brand X or brand Y is better than
all the rest merely because of the brand name.
Please study the design of each follower show in the previous post. I had original Colt Magnzines with Chip McCormick style followers hit the base of my aluminim feed ramp. Please note the ding at the bottom of the feed ramp shown here:
There is no brand bashing or opinions about this ding. The fact is that the basic design of the follower makes it more likely to damage the feed ramp than the other designs.
I prefer to use followers that can't extend beyond the magazine to avoid damaging the aluminum ramps. Many designs provide this safeguard.
The Devel style followers used in full size eight round mags and seven round officers size mags are the ones that can impact the frame. The follower has no skirt at the front, and will rock forward after the last round in the mag is fed.
These types of followers can be found in many brands. I personally have them in CMC mags, Shooting Star mags, some Kimber mags and two Colt mags that came with my new LW Commander XSE.
The two brands of "higher capacity" mags that I use in my alloy framed pistols are the Kimber Pro-Tac mags and Wilson 47D mags. These two types are available in stock at gun shops in my area. There are several other brands that are safe to use in alloy framed pistols. Plus; most all standard capacity mags (7 in full size, six in officers size) will be OK to use in alloy frames.
Quote:
So do I. Althought it's possible... and maybe even probable... for jacketed
hollowpoint bullets to do some damage to an aluminum frame over the course of
enough use... it's most often the magazine follower that does it... and even
then, the follower has to be able to contact the frame before it can damage
it.
I think you are right on all points, Tuner. I only use mags that have skirted followers with lightweight frames - typically Tripp and Checkmate. Something is peening the top of the feed ramp - and judging by the wear on the feed ramp which extends from bottom to top (not wear in the classical sense, just the dark finish being worn off by bullet noses), most rounds are hitting the feed ramp below the top and doing the correct tango up into the chamber.
Could be case mouths or bullet noses - nuthin' else travels in the neighborhood of the very top of the feed ramp.
I'm going to the range today to prove that the slide has been short-cycling with the small radius FPS and heavy Wolff XP spring. Not a short enough cycle to prevent the gun from chambering a round - but short enough to keep if from locking back when the mag is empty. I fixed-up an 18 and a 16 lb Commander spring last night to fit the somewhat shorter slide and spring tunnel, and read an old article you published about recoil springs which identified failure to lock as a common symptom of over-springing a 1911. Am taking the Ed Brown slide lock with me since the gun refused in every instance to lock back with that part after the last round was fired, even though it would lock back when hand-cycled.
Am also taking the original, large radius FPS so I can restore the gun to stock condition if need be.
Tuner - will be sending you a PM later after we see the grand-kids today - please keep yer eyes open for it - and thanks to all who responded.
P.S. - The gun has proven itself with HP ammo - so will stick to hardball or Corbon's PowerBall at the range.
George... now that the pistol is functioning properly with a lighter recoil spring check to see if the ramp is still getting peened and let us know.
Also, I think you should try a 16# spring... it should still function OK and you will notice more change in the recoil. Both my 4.25" pistols are set up with EGW FPS's and 16# springs and feel and function great.
I think you have a S&W Commander set up with a 16# spring... same should work for this pistol.
Hi Jim - thanks a bunch! I agree with you on trying the 16# spring, and my S&W Scandium 1911PD is indeed set up with a 16# spring and small radius FPS - shoots like a dream - as does my Kimber Pro (now). Didn't have enough time at the range today to change the spring but will next weekend.
Ain't it just amazing? I really am in awe of Tuner's knowledge and communication skills and I know it shows - can't help it. I now have two lightweight carry guns that function in a very different way than they did from the maker - and the function is better by far. The recoil is much more like a revolver - back and slightly up - target recovery is noticeably faster - and the recoil spring (mis-named) is now doing what JMB intended for it to do - return the slide to battery while stripping a round from the mag in correct sequence. The recoil spring is now nowhere near the "shok-buff" it has become as a result of the design changing to the larger radius FPS, which in turn required a heavier spring to soak up slide momentum - which then is released in a forward direction to the detriment of the barrel feet and slide stop.
All of my 1911's now proudly wear EGW small radius FPS'S except my Bullseye target guns. They are next! I may get down to an 8lb spring on those Bo-Mar Rib equipped beauties.
As a side note, in the past I did cut down 308 rifle cartridges and may have blown apart Aluminum and even steel Colt 1911 frames. Where do you think the 451 Detonics, 45 Super, etc came from? Maybe not me, but people like me. Flash to the future and S&W has their Scandium doped Alumium frames. Have one. The new XSE Commander LW frames may not be like the old LW Commander frames. Have all these and still carry an all steel Commander made in 2007 or everyday use.
Stupid newbie question... what does FPS stand for? Remember I am here to get educated.
Usually, it means Firing Pin Stop. Or Firing Pin Safety. I try not to use this one...
Jim - it seems fine now, but I haven't put any hollowpoints through the gun - and may not - but it was fine with standard ball and PowerBall - so I think the problem is resolved. Also, I think the 16# spring may be too light for the Kimber 4" - the spring tunnel is only .94" long compared to the Commander's 1.125" tunnel length. So basically there are four coils less on the Kimber spring. Also, the lower edge of the FPS contacts the Kimber's hammer about .020 higher than on a Commander, so the slide has greater mechanical advantage. I don't feel the same resistance to cocking the slide on the Kimber that I do on the 4.25" Commander. I am going to try the 16# next weekend and will report back.