Magazine Function: The Dimple

I think this one's been posted somewhere...but it bears repeating.

Inertia! Just no way to get around Newton's Laws regarding motion.

Remember the old trick of jerking a tablecloth out from under a table setting? This is the principle at work here.

We have a round in the chamber and one round in the magazine.

Bang! The slide starts to move as the pistol torques up and back. The slide holds the last round slightly below the feeding position until it moves far enough to uncover it. Just as the magazine spring is struggling to move the round into position, the round is in a sort of "Limbo" while the pistol continues to move backward in recoil. The round obeys Newton, and stands still while the gun is moving away from it.

The magazine spring catches up, and gets the round up and into the underside of the feed lips, but because the pistol pulled backward away from it (Even though the pressure from the slide drags the round backward in the magazine)... it settles down forward of the feeding position. At this point, if the magazine spring is strong enough to keep it there, the slide pushes it ahead of the extractor. The pistol either fails to go to battery with the round fully chambered, and the front of the extractor rammed against the back of the rim. Extractor breakage is an eventuality.

If the spring isn't strong enough, the round is forward of optimum feeding position just as the slide smacks the impact surface in the frame, and triggers a second recoil impulse. The gun makes a short, hard jerk upward and backward... and the round is in limbo once more because the mass of the round has caused the magazine spring to compress slightly. The round... already too far forward in the magazine...jumps the follower, and is free of the magazine. The follower pushes the slidestop up as the slide moves forward, and the slide locks. If the magazine spring is weak enough, the next to last round will be ejected from the magazine, and the last round feeds. Ever found live ammo among your brass? Heeere's yer sign!

The problem is two-fold. One is the spring that has fewer coils to make room for the extra round. There is ample tension to feed until it gets to the last round... and tension is at a mimimum... but sometimes it can happen before the last round. Upping the spring rate helps, but doesn't address the other issue.

The other part of the problem is the smooth follower. Browning knew how

Inertia would affect things, and he put a small dimple on the top of the magazine follower. The dimple's function is two-fold. It adds a small amount of height to the follower in order to give it a "Leg Up"... and it stops the forward movement of the round. More accurately, it keeps the pistol from moving out from under the round in recoil. In this function, it's basically a back-up for the spring as it fatigues, and provides a better opportunity for the round to stay in position to be stripped from the magazine by the slide instead of being pushed ahead of it... or... in the extreme cases, escaping from the magazine completely.

John Moses designed a 7-round magazine and he put a dimple on the follower for very good reasons. Whenever we try to change things in order to "improve" the gun... we very often cause problems. There just ain't no such thing as a free lunch, I'm 'fraid.

Originally Posted by 1911Tuner:
John Moses designed a 7-round magazine and he put a dimple on the follower for very good reasons.

I'm a bit old fashioned, and I've been accused of purism, so it should come as no surprise that all of my mags are of the gov't issue, 7 round, welded floor, dimpled follower variety. My RIA came with an 8 round job with a smooth follower. I don't use it, but my son likes that one because it's easier(read that as 'less technique sensitive') to load. But he wondered why he got 2 instances of the slide coming slightly short of going into battery, both of which occured on the last round out of that mag. I have to work on his mag packing skills! Once I get a few more gov't mags, I'll probably sell the 8 round job.

Canuk... I beg to differ. A simpleton wouldn't have been able to understand that explanation... or wouldn't have seen the logic behind it.

F'rinstance... Several years ago, my uncle (Retired Navy armorer) told me that that the dimple had a very good reason for being there without explaining why. He knew that I was the hard-headed type that had to touch the wall to see if the "Wet Paint" sign was lying... and that I'd be obliged to find out for myself. I guess he figured that a hard-learned lesson would be less likely to fade... so he dropped that on the table and waited for me to file the dimples off a few followers... which I did. basically... He baited me to file the tops of the followers smooth to see what would happen.

After all... Ken Hallock said it was the right thing to do... right? RIGHT??

Last round malfunctions began to show up almost immediately in two pistols, but two others seemed to run fine. "Seemed to" is the key. They did run... but a couple thousand rounds into the exercise, I noticed that the extractors began to lose tension...something that they hadn't done before over the course of 20,000 rounds collectively. (Heeeere's your sign!)

I shrugged it off, reasoning that they were just ready for adjustment anyway. I reset the tension and continued on. One lost tension quickly...and one snapped off flush with the breechface. I STILL didn't make the connection.

Somewhere in that time frame, my uncle called me to ask if I had removed any dimples. I answered in the affirmative, and his next question was: "Lost any extractors yet?" I could "hear" the little wiseassed grin on his face over the phone. After about a 30-second silence, he said: "I'll let you go...I guess you've got some followers to replace."

Quote:
"There are three kinds of people. There's them that learn by readin' and there's them that learn by watchin'. Then there's that third type that's gotta whizzz on the electric fence for themselves."
--Will Rogers--

Please note a point that I've made several times... and one that has been born out by experience with these and several other magazine designs.

Just because the gun is functioning, it's no guarantee that it is functioning correctly. A 1911 pistol that is properly set up will usually force the extractor hook to climb the case rim and return to battery, thus giving no indication that anything is wrong for a long time... until the extractor stops working or breaks. The 1911 is a controlled-feed design, and was never intended to do that. The dimple was out there to prevent the push-feed and resultant extractor snapover on the critical last round. When it's removed, either by design or mill file... a very important part of the design is compromised.

Remember: When one thing is changed, it has an effect on more functions than one... and usually not for the good.

I agree that a 1911 can operate pretty good out of time. I'm just saying that maybe there is a way to achieve this without the dimple. While I'm not 100% sure, because I don't have a high speed camera, I'm as sure as I can be the my rounds are sliding under the extractor hook. They do at all visable speeds, easily I might add. Is it possible, that there is another way?

Under the Hook
Howdy Nathan,

No doubt that the rounds are feeding correctly when you hand-cycle the gun, even if you let the slide snap forward on the last round. The inertial forces generated during recoil aren't in play, and the last round won't ride forward in the magazine, and the last round is the fly in the ointment, because spring tension is at a minimum. The dimple imposes a physical obstruction to the movement.

If you'll forget the misleading term "Smooth Function" when you consider the cycle of the pistol... especially in .45 caliber... and understand that it's a fairly violent, slam-bang affair, the dimple will begin to make more sense.

If you want to see if there's evidence of a push-feed, check your fired brass for small burrs right on the edges of the rims of the cases. The ding behind the burr will be more rounded than the ejector mark that is on the opposite side. If you see the burr... you've got a push-feed.

Follower Dimple
Tuner,

I have decided to take a huge center punch and put dimples in every one of my followers. If a little is good alot must be better. I am just kidding but thank you for explaining in plain English why it was put there. Jim Clark
23rd January 2005

I like dimples;)

I have some mags with plastic followers & someone went to the trouble to make a place for and put small ball bearings where the dimple should be. My SA mags don't have dimples, but soon will.

The great Mr. Browning is one of my hero's along with Harry Pope & Mr. Kalashnakov. (Pardon the spelling)

Have been reading with great interest. Could someone simply add a dimple with a punch like cotton jokes? Do Wilson mags have dimples on them?

quote: Do Wilson mags have dimples on them?

No. Not mine at least.

Wilson Mags
santa asked:
Could someone simply add a dimple with a punch

Nope. The dimple is a punch and die operation. Just using a punch would deform the top of the follower.

Wilson 47D magazines(8-round) don't have one. Earlier 47s (7-round) had a ball bearing that appeared to have served the same purpose... except that it was in the wrong place, (located too far rearward) and it was too large.

If I make a casting of each side of the folower with 'cerro metal', making a die set. Then drilling one side using the dimple as a center mark. Then using that hole with transfer punch to make the dimple. (I will get the operations in the correct order in actal ractce Will this be close enough to get the placement correct?

quote: If I make a casting of each side of the folower with 'cerro metal'

Probably so... but those materials are pretty soft, and likely wouldn't hold up to very many dimple-making operations. Metalform has followers ready to go... complete with dimple... and they're not expensive. Downright cheap if ya order 40 or more. The stainless followers are a little harder and tougher than the carbon copies... pardon the pun... for just a bit more money.

Smooth followers on high end mags

I have read through this thread, and can't help but ask what I don't mean to be a controversial question. But... if anything but the dimpled 7 rounders compromise the Browning design (which I am not trying to debate at all), why do so well respected 1911 manufacturers supply mags that deviate from this design. What advantage is seen (besides ease of loading which can't be that big of a deal) in these other designs. For instance, my Les Baer TRS (a gun and maker of which I have never heard or read anything but superlatives) provides two 8 round mags with smooth, plastic followers. I think they are made by McCormick, but am not sure of that. No dimple, but the top of the follower has a depression formed in the shape of the cartridge. Does that serve the same function and the dimple in positioning the round during the cycling?

Yesterday I picked up a 1991-A1 and the mag has a dimple. It works fine, but when I tried another (no name) mag on the last round the slide locked back and the round was well forward. The back of the cartridge was forward of where the dimple would/should have been. I think additional friction and a dimple would have held the cartridge back in the lips of the mag and not let the follower come up to lock the slide.

One of the questions that is often asked whenever anything is newly introduced is: "What is it for?" Too often, the answer is simply: To sell."

For almost as long as I can remember, there has been a quest for more firepower in a handgun (or a rifle), and people will go to great lengths in order to gain one or two more rounds.. .even going as far as compromising functional reliability on one end to gain something on the other. Why? I suppose because that an added round or two comforts them somehow.

To restate a point that I've made many times... Just because something works, and the pistol is functioning... doesn't mean that it's functioning correctly. That dimple is there for some very good reasons, and removing it can cause problems that aren't always immediately apparent. The main one being that it helps to insure that the last round will feed correctly in a controlled manner rather than being pushed ahead of the extractor... and resulting in the extractor hook climbing over the rim. When that happens, the extractor loses tension prematurely, and it can even lead to outright failure.

A good, strong magazine spring works toward proper feeding... and the dimple is a backup device for when the spring gets weak, or fails to do its job correctly every time. Another Browning redundancy at work.

The dished-out followers such as the Wilson-Rogers design is an attempt to accomplish what the dimple does and still allow 8-rounds in the magazine... but it's much more dependent on spring tension than the standard magazine, and while it does control the last round pretty well... it's still not as efficient as the dimple. Basically, it's another attempt to outsmart old John Moses... and that's a tough act to follow. Other, even less successful attempts have been made. SHort, 8-round magazine followers WITH the dimple weren't stable, and created nose-dives and other feeding problems. Gorilla- strength springs that made the magazine tough to load and overstressed the floorplate welds. Redesigned floorplates that drove up the cost of the magazines...The list could go on. All in the pursuit of one extra round... Doesn't make much sense to me. I've always subscribed to the belief that if I can't solve a problem with 7 rounds of .45 ACP, that I'm in over my head anyway... and the chances that one more will do the trick are about the same as hitting the Powerball Lottery. I'd rather have an extra measure of reliability with the magazine in the gun, and practice fast reloads before the gun goes dry, than to have a sense of often false confidence inspired by an extra round that I probably won't need and could compromise the functioning of the first seven. I'm anal-retentive over reliability though, and I'll work hard to eliminate even a tiny possibility of a misfeed in my carry guns. For me... a .25% (that's point two-five)failure to function is unacceptable when the gun may be all that stands betwen me and a trip down the Highway of No Return.

Jim! You are standing in the light of Saint John Moses... may the force be with ya!

Do the USGI mags have the dimpled follower? I'm thinking they would be JMB's original design but would like to make sure before ordering.

Quote:
Do the USGI mags have the dimpled follower?

Yep. They have the dimple as per Browning's original design specs.

Does Springfield make any 8rnd mags? I have used the Kimber 8 rounders for a while now. I don't like my magazine sticking out the bottom of the grip; I prefer magazines that can hold 8 rounds but are still dimensionally identical to the original government variety. The Kimbers work fine so far, but they have no dimple.

I solved my lock back problems with my Baer mags with new springs but then the mags wouldn't drop 0ut of the well.

I bought some McCormick Shooting Star 8 round Power Mags and all is well. Tried them with the Baer TRS and three other 1911's and they were great.

Woke up wife
Tuner,

See what you made me do - just had to get up and check if all my mags had dimpled followers and woke my wife up in the process (11.15pm here). Despite handling my life tools lots of times, there are still many things to be discovered about them. Am much obliged Mr. Tuner.

p.s.
Yes they are dimpled and i will sleep soundly tonight.

I've used the Wilson 8rd mags in my gov profile without any problems. Is there a sure-fire way to know if the last round is causing extractor jump (instead of sliding under the case rim)?

I'd like to pick up some Wilson 7rd Officer mags for my micro-compact as I've had a couple last round FTF's with the 6rd Springfield mags (they DO have the dimple). At least in my observations, it seems like the dimple was slowing the slide down way too much.

The FTF's also could have been caused by a rough feed ramp on the barrel (which I just polished today). I also noticed a bur on the frame, just below where the ramped barrel is. The rounds hit this 1/8" peice of the frame before sliding onto the ramp, so I took off the bur & polished it as well.

The micro-compact hand cycles extremely easy now, but I've yet to get it to the range since the modifications. Maybe I'll sleep on the Wilson mag for a little longer. If not the Wilson's, who makes the best Officer 1911 mags (regardless of price)?

After reading all these posts, I'm about ready to go out and buy a 7rd mag just for the dimple.

The problem is... how does a dimpled mag follower look like?

I'm a new gun owner and the RIA I got came with only one 8rd magazine (Novaks brand.) Earlier, I was thinking of getting a 10 round magazine. However, since I'm doing a lot of shooting with this thing, punishing the extractor with undimpled magazine followers is probably not going to be healthy for my gun in the long run. Could someone post pics of these dimples on the magazine followers for us "gun-nuts in training?" I don't want to end up getting the wrong magazine.

BTW, since the problem sounds like the bad stuff occurs on the last round, would putting two snap caps on the bottom of an 8rd or more magazine serve as a possible solution? Yeah, yeah, I know that'll mean I'll be shooting 6 rounds out of an 8 round magazine which will mean more reloading time on my part. But I won't be able to get a new magazine anytime soon and I still want to go shooting at the range in the meantime.

Here's another thought that's now running through my mind. If a dimpled mag follower is used to correct the last round beating on the extractor, is it possible to simply replace the mag follower on an 8rd+ magazine (which tends to be smooth, from what I've seen so far) with a dimpled one? Or am I (most likely) missing something?

O.K, I just read all the posts here and now I have a question. I have a Kimber 25th anniv. custom, it came with a black magazine that has a dimple in the follower. But, I have 2 Kimber stainless magazines that dont have the dimple, but do have a patent pending stamp on the follower. I have used these 2 stainless mags with few problems, sometimes I get a FTF, and sometimes its on the last round. Are these mags. problematic? Should I discontinue their use? Are they making my 1911 run off time? What would be a good suggestion for me? Help please... jeep..., BTW the 2 stainless mags have worked flawlessly in my other 1911's, any thoughts?

It's makeshift science fair time!

Okay, so at work (I work in a gun store/target range) I hunted down 1911 magazines after reading this thread. Surprisingly, in that mass of 1911 magazines, there were two in the entire place that had a dimple. A Wilson 7 rounder and some aftermarket one that was being used in one of the 1911 rentals. Well, I tried out this simple experiment. I got a magazine with a smooth follower, put in one snap cap (to simulate the last round in a magazine), and moved the magazine in slow motion as if it was in a recoiling gun. Taking into account the law of inertia that 1911Tuner pointed out, I used my finger to try to keep the snap cap from moving while the magazine moved, simulating the bullet wanting to initially stay at rest.

It didn't take too much simulated recoil or pressure from the snap cap being squeezed between the magazine's movement and my finger for that snap cap to shoot out of the magazine. Now if this bullet were to slip out of the magazine this easily in a real gun, the bullet would either slip into the chamber, or an FTF would occur as the round would impact a surface with the bullet point first, pivot from the bullet, and tilt the casing upward, shooting an unshot round out of the breech, or trapping the casing in a closed breech, with the primer side sticking out of the gun.

I then tried this experiment with a magazine with a dimpled follower. The bullet began to slip out of the magazine with the same amount of ease as in the earlier gun, but then the casing's crease caught into the dimple. The bullet hung there quite strongly without slipping quickly out of the magazine.

Well, that would explain FTFs occuring in undimpled magazines with the last round. I also insterted two snap caps into the magazine with the undimpled follower and ran the experiment just to see what would happen. Guess what? The bullet on top used the bottom cartridge's casing crease as a makeshift dimple! That bullet stayed nicely rigid in the magazine.

Now if it hardly required any pressure for a bullet to slip out of the magazine without a dimpled follower while a slide was rocking back during a recoil, what would that mean for those of us that never encountered an FTF on the last round on a magazine? I would guess that the round managed to move partway into the chamber. The slide then slams into the round from a distance, instead of initially guiding the round straight from the magazine.

It's like chambering a round by hand first then slamming the slide shut afterwards. Ouch. That's gotta hurt the extractor, right?

That gave me a flashback to when I first allowed a friend to fire my newly purchased 1911. The first thing he did was put a round immediately into the chamber and slam the slide shut. NOOO!!! BAAASSSTTTAAAARRRDDDD!!!! For that brief moment, I could almost feel my poor extractor wailing in pain when he did that.

Then wouldn't you know it. During the course of my experiment a gun rentor came up to me and said that he was frequently getting FTFs in one of the rentals (not a 1911). I inspected and tested the gun and noticed the FTF always occured on the last round. I checked the magazine and BOY WAS THE SPRING LIMP ON THE LAST ROUND. It only took a light touch to bounce that round out of the magazine. So I loaded up the magazine to full. But this time the last two rounds were snap caps just to get some spring tension going for the live rounds, and so that the last round (being a snap cap) would never encounter a recoil by itself. Mag filled, shot, and no FTFs at all. I then told the rentor to always load the magazine so that the two snap caps are always the last two in the magazine. After an hour of renting, I asked the rentor if he encountered any problems. He said he went through 100 rounds and never encountered any FTFs.

The moral I learned today? Spring pressure = good. Keep springs healthy. Have a dimpled follower so that the last round doesn't slip and tumble straight out of the magazine during a recoil. And if you don't have a dimpled follower (as in your case, Jeep,) throw two snap caps into the magazine first. That way the last round doesn't have a chance to rush out of the magazine before the slide acts on it. Now that I think about it, an ACP's design is truly amazing. Not only is the cartridge designed to launch bullets nicely and work with an extractor, it's also designed to act as a dimpled follower for the bullet stacked above!

Argh. That means my 8rd mag is now going to be a 6 rounder. But hey, that should keep my gun's extractor healthy in the long run, right?

[runs off wondering how to get a dimple on top of his smooth mag follower...]

Use a punch! Or buy some of the aftermarket kits to improve the mag. Not a big deal, nothing to loose your sleep over it.

Kimber magazines...

Heh. Now this gets me to thinking about Kimber magazines. When I started my job, just about every seasoned gun nut (customer and employee alike) I met always declared (with glowing passion) how much Kimber magazines are garbage. In my two months of working there, I have only met less than five (YES, FIVE) who say Kimber magazines are worth the money. Take into account how the store encounters lots of traffic, and you get the idea of how many complaints I get about Kimber magazines. "Spectacular gun, $h!++y magazine," they say.

Heck. Too many of these seasoned vets tell me that if I ever get a Kimber, get a hammer and destroy the infernal magazine before its evil spreads.

Now I realize something, especially when I think about the gun sales I rang up... the Kimber magazines I've seen so far are all smooth and dimple-less.

Makes you think, eh?

The people in the area (California Bay-Area) also despise Cor-Bon ammo, which is weird because I have yet to see this level of derision on internet forums... if ever at all. There are some piles of Cor-Bon ammo sitting on shelves and gathering dust. But that's for a different topic.

This thread has made me realize how lucky I am. When I first began IPSC competition almost 30 years ago I encountered my fair share of reliability problems. Very few gunsmiths in those days were knowledgeable on the .45, particularly those guns that fired SWC bullets at almost 900 fps. FTFs were a way of life in those days; I guess the upside is that we became experts on clearing MFs. When I say lucky, I mean that I stumbled upon Metal Form (OK Charlie Kelsey told me about them) early on and their mags prevented these problems. I just checked my favorite mag, the eight round SS with the orange plastic follower, and found not exactly a dimple, but a molded in ridge that must serve the same purpose. 30 years of shooting and I had no idea what the dimple really did or whether or not my super reliable mags even had one.

This thread has got me to thinking about the extractor problems I am having with my Para P-16s. These pistols have developed an appetite for extractors. I always thought it was inferior parts or improper installation, but I did pay close attention to installation and subsequent tunings.

The bottom line is that I have installed more extractors in these P-16s than any other pistols I can think of. They do get a lot of use (each pistol has fired in excess of 20,000 rounds) so I just accepted the problem as normal wear and tear. After reading this thread one night, I checked the double column Para mag and found no dimple. Could this be the source of my extractor problem? I must thank you people for making me aware of this potential problem. The Paras are match guns, so the solution is simple; I will keep a fitted extractor for each pistol in reserve, and install it for match use only.

(Excuse me, I mean Mr. Tuner, sir)

Maybe you've put your finger on my problem.....

Brand new mags, no spring fatigue, BUT...on my Para Companion (I know, Officer Size, tinkering with the design), I have a persistent but not deadly malfunction. Loading a seven (yes, "extended cap") magazine to full (does anyone even sell 6 round mags Officer mags any more?), inserting it, chambering, then dropping the mag to recharge it, gives me a partially feeded round on top.

Over time the situation has improved. Out of the box, the round would be completely out of the mag and fall from the magwell after the magazine.

The gun has been back to Para, which did not help. I've tried different magazines and stronger springs. I even put an 8 round Power Mag spring in my orginal seven round magaine! Aside from the fact that I can't figure out where the round is finding space to leave the mag and stay in there, it's left me baffled.

If I find myself in a gunfight, I won't be taking time to recharge that top round, so my biggest risk is embarassment in an IDPA BUG comp or something, but still, THIS IS NOT HOW IT'S SUPPOSED TO WORK!

I thought you had weighed in on this problem in a previous post, but I may just remembering all the brilliant stuff I've seen from you in so many threads. Reading this old thread today I think.......

all the followers are undimpled.

I never have a FTF, I never have a double. I always have a partially moved mag. Whaddaya think?

Metalform makes 6-round Officer's mags. The stainless ones are worth the extra buck-fifty and those are available with the Wolff springs. The blued carbon mags aren't...which is a puzzle to me. No real reason for it, I guess... It's just policy. Call'em up... Punch "4" when the menu starts, and ask for Ginny.

Your problem isn't a problem... It's normal. When the slide strips a round, friction between it and the one under it drags the next round forward until it hits the feed ramp. When the slide recoils, it drags it backward. When you top off, the top round doesn't have the slide's action to drag it back, and when you drop the mag, the bullet nose drags against the angled feed ramp, and gets pulled, nose up, out of the mag.

Not to be a smartass (well, okay, I am one, but I'm not trying to be one in this case), but if it's not a problem, does that mean my previous 1911s and my current full size SA have a problem, since they don't do this? Or are you saying it's normal for a mini-1911?

Quote:
Or are you saying it's normal for a mini-1911?

Nope... All of'em do it to some degree. Some more than others. Some do it sometimes and other times not. Feed ramp geometry may figure into it.

Mag spring tension may figure into it. It's just that it's nothing to worry about. When the slide recoils, it'll drag the round back again.

Do a test. Hand-cycle a mag through the gun....be sure to let it feed at full speed. Riding it forward may induce a failure...but pull it back slowly and look at the next round in line. It'll be in place unless there's a problem with the mag. (Follower angle possibly)

I've read the thread and the initial explanation -- and I follow it. But got something to ask.

If the round is too far forward from ideal feeding position when the slide is ready to begin its travel from the rear to the forward -- you said the round is pushed by the slide 'somehow ?' forward of the extractor lips -- which if it chambers will result in the extractor 'felxin' enough so it can to 'jump' the rim of the case -- if it does.-- which is non-desirable wear on the extractor and also may not jump the 'rim' in which case is a malfunction.

I don't follow how the round can be pushed by the slide at all unless its in contact with the breech face -- so how can it be 'too far forward' ?

The 8-round mags offered by Metalform are offered because some people want'em. "What is it for?" to which the answer is too often: "To sell!"

Many years ago... before Devel offered the first commercially produced 8-round mags, I dabbled with makin' my own by cutting the rear leg shorter and lopping off enough spring to let me stuff 8 rounds into a space designed for 7.

It didn't work well then, and it still doesn't... "The fact that it functions in some pistols is no guarantee that it's functioning CORRECTLY. And yes... it compromises the extractor and the last round feed reliability. if the spring is wimpy enough, it compromises feed reliability randomly throughout the magazine.

I cut those followers down and left the dimples. When the last round snagged the dimple, as often as not, it pitched the follower forward and nose-dived the round into the ramp because the rear leg of the follower provides stability to the follower by allowing three spring coils to press against it when empty. With the cut-down Devel-type followers, there is only two. I removed the dimple and noticed that I started having to retension my extractors far too often... and even broke a few. I also began seeing the slide lock with the last round loose in the port... and ejecting the next-to- last round and feeding the last. Failure to lock on empty was another malfunction due to the follower pitching forward. A stronger spring helped a lot, but didn't completely cure the problem in all guns... and the extractors just kept on losing tension and breaking. I gave up and went back to the standard followers and springs... and all my problems disappeared. I tried several things to effect a cure, but time and bandwidth keeps me from describing them all. I'll just say that I was stubborn.

Emmidio... When the last round is sitting forward of the correct feeding position, two problems are at work. One is that it IS forward of the correct position. The second is that there is less surface area imposed on the case, and less resistance to movement provided by the magazine feed lips and spring... which makes it too easily pushed forward. The slide...having a longer running start and thus more energy... smacks the round and knocks it toward the chamber before the extractor can grab it. Simply put, the breechface loses contact with the back of the case for a split second...and it ain't supposed to do that. The round literally gets batted into the chamber ahead of the slide, and when the slide catches up, it's in a horizontal position in the chamber. In order for the round to slip under the extractor, it has to come up from underneath at an angle.

Remember:

The pistol is a Controlled-Feed design, which means that the round isn't supposed to get loose at any point... not even for a split second... until it's ejected empty. That's why the 1911 will function when held upside down.

The round is under constant control... f it's operating properly.

Here's an experiment for the skeptical to try. Go buy a McCormick Shooting Star mag and use it for a while. Even if it malfunctions on occasion, keep using it to give the spring a little time to weaken... which it will do pretty quickly. Load it with two or three rounds and fire it upside down and see what happens. Wilson 47D too... Then get a 7-round, dimpled follower mag, install a Wolff spring and repeat the test. Ya'll go ahead and report your findings. I'm bettin' that you'll be surprised. Just for the record, I've done the test on several 8-round magazines from several manufacturers for several people. Even the ones that functioned perfectly fell flat on their faces when the gun went upside down. Invalid test because nobody would have a need to fire upside down? Probably... but it did prove that the last round wasn't functioning in a controlled feed... and it's supposed to... every time... not 7 out of 8.

Remember this too:

Whenever something in a successful design is changed, at least three other things have to be changed to compensate for the "improvement."

And last:

John Moses and a team from Colt and the Army Corps of Ordnance Engineers really did know what they were doing. If there had been a way to reliably provide an extra round for a pistol that was ultimately going to war...

Doesn't it seem reasonable to assume that they would have? Lives were often lost or saved because of one round. If there had been a way to do that AND keep the pistol as dead reliable as it was designed to be, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

'Nuff said. If ya just gotta have 8 rounds, go for it.

I just got back from the range and did the inverted test with 3 different 12 year old Wilson 47D's, they fed and ejected fine.

I believe a combination of a properly set up 1911 with good proper spings in the mag is the key. You can't have one without the other.

The magazine is a removeable part of the 1911 firing system, and needs to be treated and looked after as such.

What's that saying about no free lunch?

After carefully reading the 7 pages of posts on this thread I've come up with some thoughts;

1) With a proper tensioned spring in a 7 round mag. with a dimpled flat follower, you will get reliable feeding/operation.

2) Should the spring fail, or lose some tension, the dimple is there as a safety net to still control the round. As quoted in previous posts.

3) With a proper tensioned spring in an 8 round mag, you will get reliable feeding/operation. As the proper function of an 8 round mag. is hinged on the proper spring tension, as it does not have the dimple as the safety net, as quoted in previous posts.

So this brings us to #4

4) Take a Wilson 47D 8 round mag., place a dimple in the proper spot and you have the proper operating 8 round mag. Should the spring should lose some of its tension, you have the safety net that Browning put in place........... the dimple.

I have 12 year old Wilson 47D 8 round mags. that have yet to cough.

If the springs fail in a short time or right out of the package, then we look at QC... or the lack of it.

Is it the poor design of the mag.?

I still belive its the combination of a properly set up 1911 with good quality mag bodies that have proper tensioned springs.

Angle of round

As the magazine is filled past half full the angle of the bullet changes with the top round in a fully loaded mag it sit at a higher angle, this can be seen when the mag is loaded fully and the top round can be depressed on the nose approx 1/8 " If this can be illiminated I believe we will no longer see any malfunctions??? Any sugestions???

Angle of round

As the magazine is filled past half full the angle of the bullet changes with the top round in a fully loaded mag it sit at a higher angle, this can be seen when the mag is loaded fully and the top round can be depressed on the nose approx 1/8 " If this can be illiminated I believe we will no longer see any malfunctions??? Any sugestions???

Quote:
As the magazine is filled past half full the angle of the bullet changes with the top round in a fully loaded mag it sit at a higher angle, this can be seen when the mag is loaded fully and the top round can be depressed on the nose approx 1/8 " If this can be illiminated I believe we will no longer see any malfunctions??? Any sugestions???

Nope. It doesn't need to be eliminated in order to reduce malfunctions. If all is right, you'll never get to practice malfunction drills unless you purposely induce one.

No. It's not a concern with the standard, 7-round flat follower. The shortened 8-round metal design rolls forward and strike the feed ramps of the guns because they don't offer adequate space for three coils of the mag spring to provide the stability that the longer, standard followers do. The added leverage of the longer rear leg is also a factor.

I've used standard magazines in several alloy-framed Colt Commanders for tens of thousands of rounds, and have never had a damaged ramp.

For a little added insurance, the forward curve of the followers can be shortened a few thousandths to gain extra clearance... but it's only rarely necessary with proper springs. Metalform offers the Wolff 11-pound spring upgrade in the stainless magazines only... or you can order the springs separately if you want blued mags. I can't recommend them enough, even if they cost you a little more to go that route. For cheap, the stainless magazines are the way to go, though. For less money than you can buy just the spring for, you can upgrade to the stainless mag with the Wolff spring. The stainless Metalform color is nice... more of a semi-dull gunmetal gray than what you'd expect with stainless.

If you call, ask for Ginny, and be sure to specify 7-round followers with the dimple... and clearly. One guy ordered his magazines like that, and when they came, they had the split 8-round followers. A return trip on their dime netted the good magazines. Ginny is good, but she can make a mistake like anybody else... especially on a Monday.

Frank, why would you want to practice with one, and carry another?

At the moment of truth, I want EVERYTHING to be EXACTLY like it was during the thousands and thousands of practice rounds...

Bumpers during practice mean that when you practice double feed drills, you practice ripping out a mag with a bumper.

Which means that a doublefeed under fire could kill you.

I carry the soft rubber pads, and after a few days, they are nice and smooth for carrying.

What I DID do is isolate my mags. I don't practice with my carry mags, and I don't carry my practice mags, but they are all identical. The only reason I isolated them is to keep the carry mags perfectly clean, and the springs new.

I don't replace practice springs. I put the new springs in the carry mags, and the retired springs (practically brand new) go into practice mags.

I sometimes run malfunction drills with carry magazines, and doing so doesn't give them too much of a work out. In any event, when doing a double feed clearance, I rip the magazine out by hooking the front, whether or not it has a bumper.

I use magazines with bumpers for routine practice, because they take a beating doing speed reloads. I prefer not to use bumpers on carry magazines because they add too much length.

Over the years I've used a variety of magazines, and they've all been sufficiently similar that I don't feel that my proficiency has been impaired. And I handle all magazines in the same way.

Also, Clint Smith wrote an interesting column recently in which he discussed the desirability of practicing with a number of different types of guns and other equipment. His theory, which coming from him seems sound, is that the gear available to you in an emergency may not always be the gear that you've used day-to-day or that you'd prefer.

Is upside down a safe test?? Quote: Originally Posted by 1911Tuner IRemember: The pistol is a Controlled-Feed design, which means that the round isn't supposed to get loose at any point...not even for a split second... until it's ejected empty. That's why the 1911 will function when held upside down.

The round is under constant control...>>if it's operating properly.<<

Here's an experiment for the skeptical to try. Go buy a McCormick Shooting Star mag and use it for a while. Even if it malfunctions on occasion, keep using it to give the spring a little time to weaken...which it will do pretty quickly. Load it with two or three rounds and fire it upside down and see what happens. Wilson 47D too...Then get a 7-round, dimpled follower mag, install a Wolff spring and repeat the test. Ya'll go ahead and report your findings. I'm bettin' that you'll be surprised. Just for the record, I've done the test on several 8-round magazines from several manufacturers for several people. Even the ones that functioned perfectly fell flat on their faces when the gun went upside down. Invalid test because nobody would have a need to fire upside down? Probably...but it did prove that the last round wasn't functioning in a controlled feed...and it's supposed to...every time...not 7 out of 8.

Very informative Johnny. But how does one safely fire upside down? Consider if the pistol goes into full auto, it's only 90 degrees to shoot your self in the foot. or worse!! I know, highly improbable but full auto has been known to occur. Looking forward to your response...Pappy P.S. I would suggest holding over a bench/table etc.

quote:
Place a piece of old carpet about 3X3 feet on the ground where you anticipate a mag will bounce...

Great idea but unfortunately not an option where I do much of my practice. It's a public, indoor range. While I'm one of a number of shooters who have clearance there to work from a holster, etc., the set up wouldn't allow me to put something on the deck like that. So a while ago I switched to McCormicks because of their bumper and welded base, and they seem to be holding up alright. I suspect that the Metalforms will too.

BTW, spoke with Ginny this morning and placed my order. She was both helpful and pleasant to talk with. Thanks for the tip.

I have a question. In Metalform's magazines, which is the one with the dimple? The flat follower, I assume?

That's what I'm told, and that's what I ordered.

And actually, when I talked with Ginny I specifically asked for the "flat follower with the dimple" and asked if that's the right one to ask for if I want the dimple. She said it was and that she'd also make a note of it on the order.

So we'll see.

Are the metalform dimples followers called "round" on their site. They list 3 kinds; flat, round and safety orange. Thanks.

Metalform

Nope. They're designated as Flat, 7-round followers. Flat 8-round followers get you the Devel-type.

quote:
Nope. They're designated as Flat, 7-round followers. Flat 8-round followers get you the Devel-type.

Do you think the molded bar in the orange plastic followers works as well as the dimple?

Quote:
Do you think the molded bar in the orange plastic followers works as well as the dimple?

Can't say... Never tried'em. I've learned... sometimes the hard way... that ol' John Moses and a team of engineers from Colt and the Army Ordnance Department really did know what they were doin'... and I try not to stray too far from that. Might have somethin' to do with why I have a malfunction about every 30,000 rounds or so.

The molded bar in the plastic followers is a little larger than the dimple, but I'm not sure that means that it is as effective. I have used these mags for many years with no problems, and I prefer the eight round capacity. I can't claim your reliability, but I feed my guns some pretty nasty practice ammo.

Nasty Ammo

Lord! Me too! Home cast bullets from reclaimed wheelweights and brass that's been loaded so many times, I can't make out the headstamp on half of it. This last lot is five years old come summer... and it's about time for a new one.

I've got a pair of early 1991A1 Colts... both 5-inch guns... that I've used for 15 years as beaters. Both are on their third barrels, with one complete rebuild that included swaging the frame rails and refitting the slides. One has never malfunctioned since I corrected a minor extractor issue when it was new. The other has malfunctioned maybe 5 times... and both have seen collectively over a quarter-million rounds.

Another pair of newer ORM Colts and a Norinco have clocked about 35,000 rounds collectively. One of the Colts and the Norinco have never missed a beat. The other Colt has had two or three... all failures to lock on empty due to the follower jumping the slidestop lug... which was peculiar to that gun with two magazines... Tweaked the follower shelf and have had no repeats.

I have to attribute this awe-inspiring reliability at least partly to the magazines. I don't even have to adjust extractor tension. The two old beaters have had the same extractors in'em since they were new. Hell, I clean 'em about every 2,000 rounds... when I change recoil springs.

Proper magazines, with enough spring tension. A good extractor, correctly fitted and tensioned. Decent ammo. Standard springs throughout.

I'm talking real nasty. In another thread we were dicussing case length and trimming, as well as how long you could use brass. These people were talking about .891 as too short. I my last post I gave the measurements of some brass I finally retired .836. I have yet to hear from this thread. My problem with this sort of abused brass was that it would no longer fit in the match barrel I was using. Failures of this nature really can't be blamed on the gun.

I'm new to 1911's. When I bought my Hi-Standard it came with one rounded top follower, just what does this dimpled follower look like? Any pics?

Boy, I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one. It sure seems like the working life of .45 ACP cases is pretty phenomenal. And I've never had a case split, crack or show any damage (except of course when I don't get it in the shellholder right and mash the edge of the case mouth with the sizing die ).

And I don't load down. Some years ago I started loading LaserCast 200 grain SWCs over Universal Clays at about 900 fps for IPSC. It's such an accurate and reliable load, I haven't wanted to mess with it even though it's way hotter than I need now that the power factor for major has been lowered to 165. So that's pretty much what I shoot in my 1911s unless I'm shooting factory.

BTW, I received the Metalforms I ordered (7 round government, 6 round officer, flat follower with dimple, stainless steel, welded base and Wolff springs). I've started trying them out and am very pleased.

Problem with last round limbo

I believe that inertial effects are an important cause of 1911 malfunctions, but there is a problem with the "limbo" idea as applied to the last round.

The *top* round in the mag will spend *more* time moving upwards (after being released by the slide's center rail and before hitting the mag lips) than the last one will, in spite of the reduced mag spring tension pushing up the last round.

When the mag spring pushes up the first round, it also has to push up the six rounds under it. It has seven times greater mass to push up than it does when it pushes up the last round, with seven times the inertia. The spring tension is not *seven* times greater on the top round than on the last one! So the first round out of the mag will move upwards more slowly, and be in "limbo" longer than the last.

Quote:
The spring tension is not *seven* times greater on the top round than on the last one! So the first round out of the mag will move upwards more slowly, and be in "limbo" longer than the last.

I'm not so sure about that. There is alot of pressure pushing up that first round. It would be interesting to measure the difference.

I've been putting loaded mags upright on digital scales and slightly depressing the round. Unfortunately my scales only go up to five pounds, so I can't measure the first round spring tension. But I'm estimating the first round tension as two to three times the last.

Just got back from the range. I finally remembered to try the "Inverted Test".

Gun: Custom Long Slide, .45 ACP
10 lb recoil spring with buff
Ammo: 200 gr swc lead at 840 fps

Mags: One eight round Metalform with plastic follower and molded in ridge in lieu of dimple. Weak spring as the mag is over 15 years old with original (much used) spring.

Two ten round Metalforms with rounded followers, no dimple but strong springs.

Procedure: Each mag was loaded with two rounds. The pistol was loaded, inverted, and fired until the slide locked back.

Results: After about a half dozen attempts I observed no failures; the pistol fired both rounds and then locked the slide to the rear.

LoRL, OK, all you have to do now is learn how to walk with your hands, or shall I say with one hand, the other will hold the pistol.

Just learned some interesting information regarding the standard Metalform design. I've been using the Wolff stainless 7-round version with dimpled followers now for a few years. Haven't had a single problem. All of a sudden Wolff can't get Metalform to maintain its quality control and is dropping them, so I order a few remaining in their stock. They arrived with smooth followers. The story is that the FBI specifically requested smooth followers for the mags in their Springfield guns (TRP's?), and I had happened to receive a few mags that were somehow related to that production run. So now the FBI somehow missed the obvious and has ordered incorrectly engineered magazines - why? Maybe because it is slightly easier to load the first round?

Inquiring about the reason for the changeover, I also learned that the hue and cry from customers has been for a functional 8 round magazine. Putting it in my own words, ignorance has trumped reason.

Now it seems that ACT-MAG has addressed this desire with their 8-round mags - they all use an extended floor plate to squeeze that last round into the mag. Fortunately, ACT realizes that 1911 mags are rightly and correctly 7 rounders by design and is offering 7-round versions of this mag. Obviously the 7 round version has more room for the correct spring and more room for the anti-tilt followers. I can't say whether ACT followers are dimpled, but if not, someone at the design desk is not doing their homework.

Others have brought up the subject of why so many well-known mags have been produced and used for years without the dimpled follower design. My guess is that these smooth follower designs have contributed slowly to the perception that that 1911 is an unreliable gun.

Perhaps the external extractor craze can be attributed to the proliferation of poorly designed magazines? Is that when people started losing extractor tension and snapping off extractor hooks? External extractors such as S&W's will snap over the case rim a bit more forgivingly...so maybe we can say that external extractors are the answer to incorrectly designed magazines. What else on the modern guns can be attributed to a similar ignorance?

We all know what happened to the "half-and-half" Kimber external extractor design--it was scrapped.

So for the more is better crowd, who "must" have their 8 round magazines, why not interest yourself in the double-stack version of the 1911? Leave our 7- rounders alone!

If you don't mind, where did this information come from?

OD,

If you are referring to the Metalforms with the smooth followers, these mags were sent to me and I have them in my possession. The info about the FBI ordering smooth follower mags for their Springfield's came from a personal phone call I had with Dave @ Wolff gunsprings. The comment about Kimber external extractors was made from personal observation: 1) all the new models have the traditional internal extractor, and 2) customers who have sent their external extractor models back to Kimber repeatedly for extraction problems are getting a new slide with an internal extractor. The rest is my personal observation and musing about how the external extractor craze MAY have come about.

The last 3 FBI guys I've worked with on cases (This year), who also happen to be part of their SRT crew that carry the Springfield Professional Model... were all carrying Wilson 47D's. They told me they were FBI issued.

What dimple ?

What dimple ?

According to my Wife, (note the capital) it's a pimple, not a dimple.

She says Tuner is confused.

Mr. Tuner,

I just read your post and have decided to purchase Metalform magazines,carbon with the addition of stainless followers (as additional items).I have a question about the Wolff springs,I noticed other than the standard 9.5 lb.version they list 10 and 11 lbs. Would there be an advantage to go with the higher strength springs or stay with the standard.These are for standard 1911's,(7-shot) also would there be a preferred strength for the officers model (6-shot).

The 10-pound spring is designed for 8-round magazines with the Devel-type follower and won't work well with the standard 7-round follower. The 11-pound spring is for the standard 7-round follower. The 11-pound Wolff spring is in all my magazines... all 150+ of'em.

I don't understand what the big deal is on 8 round mags. I have been using SS Metalform eight round mags with the orange plastic follower (it has a molded in ridge that serves as a dimple) for well over ten years with no problems. I recently tried the "upside down" test using a mag that was well over ten years old with a rather weak spring. I loaded the mag with three rounds, inserted it in the pistol, inverted it and fired until the slide locked back. The pistol and mag functioned flawlessly. The test was halted when I started to get dizzy, but I did run four or five three round mags through the gun.

Big Deal on the Dimple

Just because the gun is runnin' is no guarantee that it's runnin' right. That dimple is important... Yessir it is.

How long does it have to run before you can tell it isn't running right? If my memory serves me, we are talking about 15 years with no problems.

I have found this thread to be extremely informative, but it leaves me with a few questions specific to my application that I would like to ask of 1911Tuner.

I purchased a Kimber Grand Rapor II. Wanting more that the one magazine it comes with I purchased 3 Kimpro Tac-Mags of the same 8 round capacity. Being new I assumed that these being Kimber's premium magazine for their 1911's they would be the best option. I have looked at the magazines after reading this post and have determined that they do not have the "dimple", and obviously they are not of the dependable 7 round capacity. I have yet to fire this weapon, and do not want to do so if these magazines will harm it in someway. I have read here that the Tripp Research Cobramags have an excellent reputation and the dimpled follower. It appearers they sell an upgrade kit with springs and follower which reduce my current magazines to a 7 round capacity - your 2 ideal situations. Would you recommend this, or suggest another alternative? I would prefer not to purchase complete new magazines, but would if I had too.

Secondly, if I am just replacing the "guts" how do I do so on my current style. They do not seem to have the "button" on the base plate like the ones my used too.

Don't count on anyone to tell you which magazines will work with your pistol, believe me, no one can. While it is possible that the CobraMags, or the Wilson mags, or even the ones you have already bought will work fine, it is equally possible that they won't work. Take me for example. Most people rave about the Wilson mags. Well, my Colt didn't like them a bit. I gave them to a friend, with another Colt and they worked just fine.

In a nutshell, try your mags and see how they work in your pistol.

Johnny's suggestion about the dimple is a solid one, however my most reliable mags are MecGars and they do not have a dimple. So everything is relative.

Originally Posted by John:
Johnny's suggestion about the dimple is a solid one, however my most reliable mags are MecGars and they do not have a dimple. So everything is relative.

I agree 100% with what you have stated, but 1911tuner is suggesting long term damage/premature wear to 1911's being used with magazines without the "dimple", if I understood his previous posts correctly. That would be my area of concern. Therefore, I would not have a problem with replacing the followers in my Kimpro Tac-mag's, but how would I go about this with that style of baseplate? Also, is the Tripp Research follower/spring a reliable replacement part, or would anyone suggest something different?

I do not think so. I do not think that the dimple affects the longevity of the pistol or that it will prevent premature wear in it. It is a matter of correct functioning. You must have misunderstood something.

One more thing, I am not sure about your particular pistol, but if its frame is made of aluminum, you've better be careful selecting mags for it. The typical Metalform follower can scratch the feeding ramp of your pistol. Only magazines with skirted followers should be used in aluminum frame pistols.

FWIW, the Tripp Research CobraMags as well as their upgrade kits also have dimpled followers.

Long-Term

The long term effect of not having the dimpled follower isn't damage to the gun. By not positively controlling the last round in the magazine, it can allow the last round to jump the follower when spring tension is at minimum and cause the round to get ahead of the slide... causing the round to be push- fed into the chamber... with the extractor hook snapping over the rim. This causes stoppages and/or premature loss of tension in the extractor and eventual outright failure... breakage... of the hook.

The dimple's sole purpose is in controlling the last round by keeping it from getting out of correct feeding position. If you'll study on it a bit, you'll notice that the dimple stops the round just before the release point. It's essentially another Browning redundancy that maintains positive controlled feed for all rounds. No... It doesn't cause a problem every time... but it can if the mag spring is below spec tension. No... it's not a guaranteed prevention... though it usually does if the spring is also in good shape, the magazine isn't damaged, and the dimple itself is to spec.

maybe I need to melt a dimple in all my Wil-Rog mags. All I know is Wilson's work, all the time. Now yall got me thinking, do my 10round Wilsons have the same follower?

Nope... 10 rd Wilsons use a round style follower.

"I have read here that the Tripp Research Cobramags have an excellent reputation, and the dimpled follower. It appearers they sell an upgrade kit with springs and follower which reduce my current magazines to a 7 round capacity - 1911tuner's two ideal situations. Would you recommend this, or suggest another alternative? I would prefer not to purchase complete new magazines, but would if I had too.

Secondly, if I am just replacing the "guts" how do I do so on my current style? They do not seem to have the "button" on the base plate like the ones my used too on my Beretta."

Quote:
Secondly, if I am just replacing the "guts" how do I do so on my current style? They do not seem to have the "button" on the base plate like the ones my used too on my Berretta."

Insert 4 loaded rounds in the magazine. Pass a hex wrench or other suitable object into the small hole, on the side of the magazine, which is directly below the bullets, so that it holds the spring down. Now remove the rounds and shake, the follower should fall into your hand. Cap the mag with your palm and remove the hex wrench. The spring will pop up and you can pull it out.

Alternative #1

Another way to get the mag apart is to select a scrap piece of wood or plastic lying about, that will be a loose fit in the magazine. Contour one end at the same angle as the follower. Compress the follower a few inches with your new mag tool, and place a punch all the way through the magazine, just underneath the follower. You may need a paperclip or small hook to loosen the follower, but then it will come out the top. Your new mag tool can also be used with some paper towel to clean the inside.

O.K. Now I am getting a Headache! The 1911 design has too many ins and outs. And I have been a student of the 1911 for over 20 years!

Question #1) I have always liked the Metalform 7 round mags with the round top follower. Doesn't this make the gun think that it is feeding the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, round out of the mag instead of the last? Should I sell all my mags now?

Why does compaines like Ed Brown use these mags?

Question#2) Regardless of the mag we use, for general range use don't let the slide feed the last round out of your mag. Reload the gun with a fresh mag after you count 5 or 6 shots. This will decrease breakage of the slide stop and extractor. Self defence and competition is another story, Even then the "Tactical Reload" is preferred compared to last shot lock open.

Question #3) Tuner, plese write "The Book"

Originally Posted by T-TAC

Question #1) I have always liked the Metalform 7 round mags with the round top follower. Doesn't this make the gun think that it is feeding the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, round out of the mag instead of the last? Should I sell all my mags now?

Why does companies like Ed Brown use these mags?

Answer to #1:

The feeding angle of the last round isn't the issue. Positive control of the last round is the problem, and that's what the dimple is there for, when spring tension is at minimum.

Can't speak for Ed Brown or anyone else, except to say that when the buying public demands something, someone will always be there to sell it to'em. On to... Question#2)

Regardless of the mag we use, for general range use don't let the slide feed the last round out of your mag. Reload the gun with a fresh mag after you count 5 or 6 shots. This will decrease breakage of the slide stop and extractor

Answer to #2:

The only time that the extractor is placed under undue stress during the feeding/chambering phase is when the round gets ahead of it, and forces the claw to climb the rim...snap over...which means that the last round got loose. The gun is a controlled feed design. If the round gets loose, it's not being controlled...which takes you back to answer #1. That's what the dimple is for.

Quote:
Why does compaines like Ed Brown use these mags?

This is the only thing that Tuner and I disagree on.

So I will go out on a limb here.

Just because the magazine does not have the flat follower with a dimple does not mean the the gun is feeding improperly. Could it be? yes... but it isn't automatically so.

I thoroughly realize that non-dimpled follower types rely on spring pressure alone. But after being on this and other forums, I've seen too many dimpled followers fail to lead me to believe that they are THE only way to go.

Will I ever buy into the fact that the dimpled follower is THE only way to go? No

Been using Wilson mags for over 15 years now and have yet to have to adjust my extractor, or see any mark on the case rims that would lead me to believe that the extractor is/has jumped the rim and fed improperly.

Now don't get me wrong here... there have been 3 people who have greatly influenced my 1911 skills as an armorer... a relative that was in the Armed Forces and was an armorer, Rick Neimer of the Detonics fame (now with Oly Arms), and our beloved Tuner.

I'm not bad mouthing Tuner, I never would as I have great respect for him.

My bottom line advice is this... whatever mags you choose, 1)check to make sure they fit and release from your gun, 2)feed any type of ammo you put into your gun, and 3)check your case rims periodically to see if you have improper feeding.

Wichaka, I have to agree with you, but with some remarks. So here we go.

I agree with you, the dimple is not the only way to assure proper magazine operation. Indeed some mags work without it. My MecGars are so far the ultimate magazine, 100% reliability. On the other hand the two Wilsons I tried were a big disappointment, so I also agree with you, try different magazines, find the ones that work for your pistol, each 1911 is different.

One more thing. I believe that Tuner's advocacy for the dimpled follower has to do more with the case of "very used" magazines. In other words, I am not sure what will happen when the MecGars get old. A dimpled follower will still control the last round, even if the spring is slightly tired or weak. A flat follower mag, or a concave follower one will let the last round slip forward under recoil thus creating malfunctions. The dimpled one will maintain the round in the proper position, even if the spring has weakened a little.

I also have to agree with someone's signature here. For the range, any magazine will do. For the match, the 8-rounder is the way to go. For socially unpleasant situations, I only trust the 7-rounders. Sorry, that's what I've found out after all those years. Even the latest 8-rounders from Metalform didn't make me change my mind.

Originally Posted by wichaka
I thoroughly realize that non-dimpled follower types rely on spring pressure alone. But after being on this and other forums, I've seen too many dimpled followers fail to lead me to believe that they are THE only way to go.

Let's clarify what may be a misunderstanding...

Never have I said that it's THE only way, nor have I suggested that the absence of a dimpled follower is a guarantee that the gun isn't correctly controlling and feeding the last round... NOR have I ever denied that a given pistol won't run and run well with any other type.

Reliability can't be guaranteed, and if anybody claims that they can tune a pistol for 100% guaranteed reliability... he's either lyin' or he's fulla horse apples. It's not about guarantees. It's about increasing or decreasing the odds.

I've seen excellent reliability with Wilson and McCormick 8-round magazines. I've also seen excellent reliability with the standard 7-round designs. I've also seen both types fall flat on their respective faces. I've just seen the 8-rounders fail more often and in a wider range of pistols than the 7- rounders. I've seen pistols that choked like a pukin' buzzard on Wilson 47Ds and McCormick Powermags turn into well-oiled machines with plain, old USGI "Hardball Only" magazines... even when used with hollowpoints.

I've seen pistols that refused to run with good 7-round standard magazines that also wouldn't run on the 8-rounders.

I will go out on a limb and state flatly that if the pistol WON'T run on good magazines of the standard design... 7 round/flat, dimpled follower... that there's a problem with the gun... provided that the shooter isn't using junk ammo... AND... that you'll have a BETTER CHANCE of reliable feeding in any given Who-Hit-John 1911 pistol with a standard, 7-round magazine that you will with a given 8-round magazine. Chances... Odds... Gambles... That's what it's about. Odds are that you won't need a pistol at all today. Odds are that...even if you do... you won't need to empty the magazine. These things are usually decided within 5 or 6 rounds total from both parties. Odds are that if you do get to the last round in the magazine, and you haven't solved your problem... you ain't GONNA solve it without God's intervention.

As for me... I've seen the trick magazines fail often enough that they won't be riding in any of MY pistols that may have to get me home alive. A matter of choice, really...

I don't post here often, more of a reader I guess. But I a firm believer of the seven round dimple follower. I have a bunch of the cheap Springer mags, that I have gotten off of other peoples loaded coupons. Then make a call to Wolff for some springs.

Time after time, while shooting at the range, I have loan them to people with High and Low dollar guns with feeding problems. So far these cheap mags has cured 99% of them.

I have been reading this forums and others, with Tuner. If I ever make it to the Carolinas. I would love to have Tuner tune my 1911 Springer. To me this would be the most custom I would want.

Time after time, while shooting at the range, I have loan them to people with High and Low dollar guns with feeding problems. So far these cheap mags has cured 99% of them

Wish I had a nickel for every time I've done that...and if ya get over here to the Tarheel State, stop in and set a spell. I'll show ya a little magazine thing that'll blow ya clean outta the hat frame.

Nickels???? Tuner you need to think a bit larger currency. I'm thinkin' dimes my friend!

It seems to change their tune though when one explains that the magazine is a removeable part of the 1911 firing system. And that they should be treated as any other part of the gun.

I happen to be more of a reader than poster myself, but I have to say that this thread is the most interesting of any I've found.

I'd also like to mention that I've taken all my 8 round Kim-Pro TacMags apart and replaced the insides with 7 round springs and dimpled followers from Tripp Research and my 1911 loves them so far!

Given a choice, would you prefer to go with the standard GI-style Metalform 7 rd. magazines with dimpled follower and 11 lb Wolff spring, or a McCormick Powermag or Wilson magazine body with the 11 lb Wolff spring and dimpled Metalform follwer?

The reason for asking is the Powermags and Wilsons place the magazine higher in the pistol for straighter feeding, which some people say is more reliable. On the other hand, I've heard that feeding the rounds higher up also causes the extractor to jump over the cartridge rim more often. Which is it?

Drummer... given a choice, I'd ather have one of the two outside magazines pictured. One is a Metalform and the other is a Checkmate... both made to Colt's specs. The center one is a generic Metalform.

The tapered lips effect a gradual rise as the round strips, so that a straighter shot at the chamber is effected without having to locate the magazine higher in the magwell... which can lead to the round getting ahead of the extractor in certain guns, depending on the specs of the guns in question. Radiusing the bottom corner of the extractor hook is a way to reduce the chances of that corner bumping the rim.

The gradual release of the tapered lip magazine gets the rim under the extractor as the round is feeding, instead of moving it almost to the release point had having to force it under at the same time as it's trying to break to horizontal and enter the chamber. By the time the round starts to break over, the extractor has already picked it up.

One only needs to see it happen... compared side-by-side to a straight- lipped/early release "Wadcutter" magazine to understand it. It will require removing the recoil system and hand feeding... but when you see it, you'll smack yourself on the forehead and say: "OH! So... THAT'S... the way it's supposed to feed!"

I just grabbed my pistol along with a Colt and Powermag magazines and did that little experiment. The Colt magazine released the dummy cartridge approximately .100" later than the Powermag. Also, the Colt magazine seemed to feed smoother, with less thumb pressure needed to force the round into the chamber.

So, in other words, it seems like you're saying that the Colt-pattern magazines don't need to hold the cartridges any higher due to controlling the cartridge longer.

I think I've effectively wrapped my brain around this concept.

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So, in other words, it seems like you're saying that the Colt-pattern magazines don't need to hold the cartridges any higher due to controlling the cartridge longer

Almost...

The Colt magazines don't need to position the round higher because they let the round start to come up at the rear earlier for advanced extractor pickup timing. Finishing the release later mainly insures that the round stays under control until the extractor has it under full control.

It fed smoother because by the time it completed the release, the round was almost horizontal, and well into the chamber... instead of releasing it and THEN trying to get it to break, while it's still climbing the feed ramp. The round that fed from the tapered-lip magazine... being nearly horizontal at the release point... is pressing down on the barrel... which maintains a low entry angle until the round is chambered.

The full-tapered design (USGI and early commercial) with its further delayed release point keeps the round under control of the magazine until it's completely horizontal. The advangate to the full-tapered design is that it's easily tuneable as to the exact release point, though the release is still more gradual than either the parallel lip Wadcutter or your hybrid Colt mag afford.

I am SO going to regret this...

How do you tune them?

How do you pick a release time?

How do you test the release time?

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I am SO going to regret this...

That's one of the easiest questions you've asked me, Jammer.

USGI magazine with full-length tapered lips:

Fill the magazine to capacity. Remove the whole recoil system from the gun.

Lock the magazine into the well, and push the slide into battery, stripping a round. Assuming that the pistol's specs are close to "right" the round should feed smoothly with just a slight feeling of friction as the rim centers on the breechface. If that friction "feels" a bit excessive... like it's going to prevent the slide from going to full battery without forcing it... the round is releasing a little too late. Use needle-nosed pliers to open the lips up... evenly on both sides just slightly behind the original release point... maybe a 64th or so. This widening should be very slight. No more than .005 inch per side.

Retest the feeding. When you feel just a slight amount of frictional resistance as the slide goes the final few thousandths to battery... stop. You're done. A little is good, but a little more ain't necessarily gooder.

So... it's a "feel" thing, that comes with experience. If you open the lips too far back, it'll likely still feed okay, but the chambering round won't slow the slide the way it should... placing undue stress on the lower lug and slidestop pin. If you spread the lips too far apart, the magazine may be tight locking in.

They're tolerate rebending... once. More than that, and the steel is stressed beyond the elastic limit. Properly made magazines are lightly spring-tempered.

Taking it past its limits will allow it to return to the stressed point quickly.

Look back at the pic that Tuner posted, showing the different mags. You'll see what he's talking about.

If you happen to have mags from different makers and styles... do the above test and you'll see how each one feeds a bit differently... timing wise as well.

showing the different mags. You'll see what he's talking about

Right. Enlarge the picture and you can see that the two outer magazines have a slightly later release point, but the tapered lips start the release earlier and effect a gradual upward movement of the case rim... but keep the round from releasing completely. The center magazine with the parallel lips force the round to move straight... which causes the round to take a shallow nose-dive into the ramp... and releasing early and abruptly just as the round starts into the chamber. Not a bad design, but intended more for shorter SWC ammo and much less forgiving of less than ideal ramp angles than the other two.

What exact model "Checkmate" 1911 mag is that? There's about 15-20 Gvt Mod mags listed on their site with basically no description on any of them.

What exact model "Checkmate" 1911 mag is that? There's about 15-20 Gvt Mod mags listed on their site with basically no description on any of them.

Now... That I don't know. The guy who notified me said that you've got to talk to'em and specify "The old, WW1 and WW2 hardball-type magazine *without* the flared release point."

I haven't called to check on it yet... but I plan to soon.

Lemme look around and see if I can find a couple that have been "timed" and lay one beside an untweaked GI mag. A picture is worth a megabyte of bandwidth, and all. Meanwhile, if ya decide to leap before lookin' in typical Ranger fashion, the operative word is "Gentle" as you apply torque to the lips.

Remember... The magazine that you save could be your own.

Hmmmm... Cage codes on the baseplate, or unmarked on the bottom with just a small letter or two on top of the baseplate toe?

FWIW... Wolff 11-pound springs are very close to design spec. After taking a set and about a dozen cycles, you can barely tell the difference.

I have about 8 of the toe marked ones (I am keeping), some cage coded, and the majority are totally blank. All have dimples.

W.W. I era magazine contractors

A - on top lip of base - American Pin Co., Waterbury, Conn.

B - on top lip of base - Barnes & Kobert Mfg. Co., New Britain, Conn.

L - on top lip of base - M. S. Little Mfg. Co., Hartford, Conn.

R - on top lip of base - Risdon Tool & Machine Co., Naugatuck, Conn.

R - on bottom lip of base - Raymond Engineering Corp., New York, NY.

W.W. II era magazine contractors

(Military magazines have the "letter" on top of the toe, civilian magazines have the "letters" on the bottom of the toe)

Unmarked - Colt's Patent Fire Arms Mfg. Co.

L - on top lip of base - M. S. Little Mfg. Co., Hartford, Conn.

L - on top lip of base - C-L on bottom lip of base - M. S. Little Mfg. Co. (subcontracted for Colt)

R - on top lip of base - Risdon Tool & Machine Co., Naugatuck, Conn.

R - on top lip of base - C-R on bottom lip of base - Risdon Tool & Machine Co. (subcontracted for Colt)

S - on top lip of base - Scovill Mfg. Co., Waterbury, Conn. (Scovill acquired American Pin Co. in 1923)

S - on top lip of base - C-S on bottom lip of base - Scovill Mfg. Co. (subcontracted for Colt)

G - on top lip of base - General Shaver Division of Remington Rand, Bridgeport, Conn.

I have R and S marked top of toe.

Thatnks for that comprehensive list, OD!

The only thing with the unmarked Colt magazines is that they're more rarely seen than the others... at least around here... and the counterfitters either don't notice the small letters on the toe... or they omit it purposely to give the impression that they have Colt magazines.

On the upside... Some of the fake USGI magazines I've seen are very good, both as to the reproduction and the quality.

I just discovered another reason why you want a traditional mag. I just picked up a Kimber Royal Carry, and it has a Aluminium frame. It had a Chip Mac 7 rounder in the officers sized frame. The feed ramp is dinged up with lots of scores from where the follower rocks forward with the last round. This really *****. I will test fire it with a few 6 rounders I have sitting on the shelf (which stay in place) and see if there is going to be a feeding issue. I will post pics later.

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Well, I got mine from a friend who buys direct by the pallet, so I think my unmarked ones have to have some providence. I know for a fact they were GI issue, but who made them is a mystery.

If they're genuine, the unmarked magazines were made in-house by Colt.

On the frame gouges... Yep. The traditional follower and spring don't allow the follower to rock on the last round, and...provided the follower angle is correct... won't even touch the feed ramp.

FWIW... Metalform's standard 7-round followers and the standard Wolff 11- pound spring will work in the shortened Officer's Model class magazines, and the McCormick magazines... Shooting Stars and Powermags seem to be more compatible with those internals than Wilson mags.

I am going to order some right now.

This is what happens to an aluminum frame.

http://i11.tinypic.com/33p3j82.jpg (PICTURE 404)

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This is what happens to an aluminum frame.

I don't think Brownells is open right now...

I don't even have to open the link to see it. I've seen it a lot. I've shot a half-dozen Colt LW Commanders to gobbits over the years, and I've never had that frame damage... because I've never allowed a magazine equipped with a folded Devel follower in the guns. I've stuck with the standard magazines and followers all the way, except for a brief experiment with Metalform's skirted/round-topped followers... which were also unsatisfactory for a few reasons... and since they limited capacity to 7 rounds... why bother trying to re-invent the wheel... Y'know?

Combat Controller... just looked at the pics, I've only seen marks like that when the mag has the devel type follower in it.

Well, only solid followers for me in this gun from now on.

I took my Essex arms build out yesterday with the new Colt mags with the 11 pound Wolff springs. My son and I put 120 rounds through it. Hydroshoks and ball. My son had one failuire to fully feed. I belive he "Limp Wristed" it.

Everything else was flawless. I'm sold.

A special thanks to 1911 TUNER for helping us remember that the farther we get from John Browning's original design the closer we come to unreliable ville.

Now if I can just figure out why companies charge so much for a gun that doesn't run 100% out of the box