What are the symptoms of premature slide unlocking on short slide ACPs?
I have two short slide ACPs. The newest is a Series 80 Officers Model. Its daddy is a Detonics Combat Master. There is a markedly observable unburned powder flash when firing in a near dark sititation. This powder flash bloom is not at the muzzle where you would expect it to be, but rather behind the barrel hood and in front of the breech face. There are firing pin drag marks on the face of the primer. The brass is sooty. Ammo is factory 230 grain Federal Hydra-Shock. The sound blast is painful.
Although I am not exactly a newbie with the 1911, I have never seen anything like this before. I used to compete in NRA Outdoor pistol before my visual acuity started diminishing right along with my hair-line. That goes by way of saying I do remember a little about how the 1911 is supposed to work.
The thing that kinda makes me curious is that the above 'symptoms' occur only in the Colt series 80, not the Detonics Combat Master.
Recoil spring were replaced with factory OEM dual recoil springs from Colt in both pistols.
Although I wear eye and ear protection on the range, these two pistols aren't exactly designed for only range use.
The slide on a 1911 pattern pistol doesn't actually lock, per se...
The barrel and slide are locked together when the gun is in battery, and the premature unlocking that you describe is at the barrel... and it sounds like that could be the case in your pistol.
To better understand it, it will help to see the recoil sequence in slow- motion.
The round fires, and the barrel and slide move rearward together for a short distance... about .090 to .110 inch, depending on several factors.
At that point, the barrel starts to fall and primary unlocking and extraction begins. The bullet should be out of the barrel by this point, and chamber pressure at or near zero, and momentum carries the slide through the rest of the recoil cycle.
If the barrel starts to fall early in the initial slide movement... say at about .050 inch, the chamber pressure is still high, and can cause the things that you describe. You also may notice primer flow into the firing pin hole, and/or hard extractor marks on the forward edge of the case rims. This is caused by the extractor yanking the case out of the chamber while the pressure still has the case expanded against the chamber walls.
The symptoms can also be caused by a powder burn rate that's too slow for the caliber, or the particular timing sequence of the gun... it tends to vary a little from gun to gun. If yours is right on the low edge of spec... and the powder or even the particular lot of powder in the ammo is a bit slow for the round, the pressures will still be working on the case when the primary unlocking and extraction begins.
Try a different ammo... Federal may be using a slower powder to get the velocities up for Hydra-Shok to enhance bullet expansion. It may be a little too slow for your gun's timing. If you still get the same signs with say... Winchester White Box or PMC Hardball, it could well be a timing problem. If not, try a different lot of Hydra Shok. If the problem goes away, your gun is just ammo-sensitive. Some are. I've often solved the problem by using a square-bottomed firing pin stop, which delays the slide for a split-second and gives the pressures a little longer to fall off. If your pistol is very far out-of-spec, the firing pin stop may not cure the problem completely.
I was about to mention the use of the EGW flat bottom firing pin stop, but Tuner beat me to it!
wrong term but correct implication
Sometimes its difficult for me to use the correct terminology, but you did get the right idea. What I knew I meant wasn't what I thought I said. Or, something to that effect.
Anywho, I know its the barrel and slide moving together and the barrel droping down to unlock and the extractor then doing its thing. So, how do I change the 'timing' of the pistola? Using a longer link? Wouldn't that mean welding up the lugs and then re-cuting them?
Tuner, two of my worthless, dis-respectful, hedonistic, wayward children spent some time down in College Station, Texas and they use the term 'Howdy' quite often also. You wouldn't be form that same part of the country also would you?
I don't think powder flash from ejection port in and of itself means anything. My Colt Super 38 had a brilliant orange-yellow flash at both the muzzle and ejection port, visible in broad daylight. I took it that those 130 grainers were MOVING ! The gun was also as accurate as a Luger which I took to mean was operating correctly.
The square-bottomed EGW firing pin stop is your best bet. It costs about 13 bucks and requires light fitting, and a slight radius of the bottom... but that type of stop was part of Browning's original design anyway. The larger radius was implemented to make the slide easier to operate manually with the hammer down later in the production run. That won't have any effect on the barrel linkdown timing, though... That's a mechanical function related to the lower lug dimension and shape, and the link. What it does do is delay the slide movement for a split second to allow the chamber pressure time to fall off. It also allows the use of a little lighter recoil spring, which is usually a good thing, but CAN bring on some short-cycle issues in recoil. Not usually, but sometimes.
The chopped pistols can be a mite persnickety sometimes... but they'll respond to a little careful tunin' unless there's somethin' bad outta spec. Unless I miss my guess, your's has a slightly steepr angle on the lower lug and/or a little issue at the forward radius of the lower lug, and the barrel is starting linkdown a little early. If it was very bad, you'd have probably seen bulged case heads, a broken or bent firing pin or extractor by now.
I do not think the Colt is the problem. I think you are not using hot enough ammo for these type of 1911's. The timing is built in and it is very critical when things are happening very fast. I never let an Officer's Model go home with out a Kings Recoil System in it as I believe the factory one is a born loser. This consists of a barrel bushing and a reverse plug type guide rod that has made good shooters out of these little guns. I do not care for these guns and my reliablity tune up on any of them was $750.00 to make them reliable. I have a Commander/Officers size gun that I built that runs 99% with very hot ammo. My Commander runs 100% as do all of the others. Good luck. These are finicky by nature because the 1911 platform is not designed for short slides.
"The timing is built in"... The timing is built in...
Ummmmyeah...as long as everything is in spec... but sometimes things ain't.
Check to see how far the slide moves before the barrel starts to fall.
.100 inch is good. .070 inch ain't.
One other thought is that it has a bad chamber (TOO BIG). It is hard to say with these little guns what the problem is without having them here. We know that the guns are factory made within certain tolerances and they can vary. I would not even think of trying to re-link one either short or long. To me, they are "Belly Guns" and good for their intended purpose:ie: to sell, not shoot. Sorry.
Gents, this is the Officers Model from Hell.
The recoil spring plug and the recoil spring tried to catch up with a 230 grain Hydra Shock... In went a King reverse recoil spring plug
It wouldn't feed, eject, or group... In went a Bar-sto barrel, link, and bushing
The rear sight flell off... On went the then Ashley Express tritium sights.
The firing pin tried to give me the mod look of a pierced right ear. Fortunately, its windage was off a few inches to my extreme right. The Series 80 legs, levers, spring and cup resulted in frequent 'dimples' on the primer. No 'bang' just a dimple on the primer... In went retro Series 70 firing pin, spring, and spacer.
Now, if I understand your previous suggestions correctly, I need to fit an EGW firing pin stop.
This is my 2nd Colt OM. The first one was sent back to the factory. The one that I am now discussing is its replacement.
I would have sold it some time ago, but I don't know anyone that I dislike that much.
'The OM From Hell' now back from N.C.
I feel that the gremlins and haints that once possessed my Officers Model from Hell have been fully banished. All it took was a trip over the Smokey Mountains for this little beast to see the light. And a little help from 1911Tuner.
Preliminary tests in the back yard seem to indicate that all is now well. Stocking up on a healthy supply of 230 grain Federal Hydra-Shock ammo for an extensive ammo burning session at the range.
You guys were kind enough to offer several suggestios and opinions.
I'll let you know what happens.
Gremlins in the OM
Uh-oh...
I reckon that puppy'd better work now for sure, or I'll git rode outta town on a rail...
Update is that I could only accept the top-end of the gun. I found a thing or three wrong and set'em straight. It functioned like a real pistol, with hardball when I mounted it on my Commander frame with my magazines... Now we wait for salty's results with his frame and mags...
Fingers crossed...
Update on the OM From Hell...
The sun is shining, the birds are singing, the world is spinning around on greased hubs, and The OM From' Hello' works.
This is the 4th 'smith thats worked on this thing, the first one was a nationally recognized craftsman. This paticular OM must have slipped through the cracks though.
I don't count this as a definitive test, but it sure looks good to me.
About 2 hundred Federal Hydra-Shock 230 grain were sent down range. No attempt was made for accuracy, other than put the rounds into a particular clump of Johnson grass in the backstop. As far as I can tell, the recovered brass looks OK. No firing pin drag marks on the primer, no 'sooty' residue on the brass, and it just worked, no failure to feed, no failure to go 'bang'.
I shot it two handed, one handed, and with a single hand 'tea cup' grip. No problem. The point of impact may have changed a little... not sure about that yet. But, at this point, it doesn't make a lot of difference.
All 230 grain ammunition worked as advertised. WCC 72 Ball, factory Federal, even a few rounds of steel case ball from the WW2 fracas worked.
You have to admit though, that the fact that the WCC 72 Ball and the few rounds that I tried of WW2 steel case Ball worked is more of a testament to the ammunition than the platform that fired it.
Factory 185 target didn't do so good. Neither did whats left of my old Bulls Eye reloads of 200 gr H&G 78 bullet over 3.8 gr BE.
I don't know about the fast moving +P loads. If I ever win the lottery, I'll try a bunch of the Cor-Bon Power Ball.
In the meanwhile, I have faith in it with 230 Federal Hydra-shock.
To all of you Gents and Gals of The High Road, thanks.
Can't understand why Colt didn't catch the problems... Really can't understand why the custom smith didn't... They jumped out at me in about 10 minutes, and the fix took about an hour, includin' walkin' over into the treeline and test-firin' the little bugger.
The problems were:
The barrel throat was just wrong... and it was a mess. I sweated on that one a little. Whoever did the job didn't leave a lot to work with.
It was short-linked... and it wasn't a .278 length. Still a mystery why it was swapped out. I installed a .278 link and elongated the hole at the top about .001 inch to get the barrel off the link when it locked into battery.
The lower lug feet were slightly out of spec, which along with the short link caused the barrel unlock timing to start too early. I set the feet back about .004 inch and installed an EGW stop with a small radius... just to delay it a tiny bit more.
The slide was WAY oversprung. I clipped 4 coils off the inner spring, and probably could have taken two more, but decided to leave it and let Salty fine-tune it if there was a burp. Guess I got lucky on that one.
Salty my man... We knocked a home run this time.
When it comes time for a recoil spring change... I advise to change the outer one only, and make sure that it doesn't go into coil bind.
EDIT ADD:
Salty said:
Factory 185 target didn't do so good. Neither did whats left of my old Bulls Eye reloads of 200 gr H&G 78 bullet over 3.8 gr BE.
______________
Jerry... I don't know what the factory 185 target velocities are, but for the 200 grain H&G/BE softball load, take the inner spring out of the recoil system and try it. The small-radius stop should bleed enough momentum off the slide to keep from beatin' the frame up, and the outer spring should be fine to get the slide into battery. Keep a close check on the frame for signs of peening every 50 rounds or so for a couple hundred rounds.
Tuner takes half of a 1911 and makes it work! 4 other gunsmiths have failed and they had the whole thing.
Awwww shucks!
Actually, it was pretty much a crapshoot. After a couple of phone conversations with Salty, I was about 90% sure that I could do the Mojo on it with just the top end of the gun. Colt's frames are pretty consistent on specs, and since most malfunctions start in the slide assembly... I took a shot at it. Salty understood up front that it was a 90/10 proposition, and took a chance on me. He won this one.
I took it because: He seemed like a good ol' boy... and the gun had been such a nightmare for him. And even after havin' spent several hundred dollars on it, he refused to pass his lemon along to some other poor stiff. That was what appealed to me. Honor and integrity.
That integrity earned him all the help that I could give him. Plus, his pistol fit squarely into my favorite category... A real problem child that not only the factory couldn't fix...b ut a known pistolsmith had given up on, and nicknamed it "The Officer's Model from Hell". Those are my meat and potatoes.
I may float this one for 72 hours so that any others who have the same problems with a chopped clone can print the information to give to their smith to save him a lotta and
Cheers all!
In all fairness to everyone concerned with this paticular beast and its predecessor, I suspect that quality control standards at Colt were somewhat lax.
Colt was owned by a foreign Investment Group and perhaps they were more interested in short term sales than a long term commitment. I dunno. Colt, again at that time, was having serious labor problems with their machinists union as well as management.
The aftermarket work that was done took place over a period of about 10-12 years. I'd pay to have someone work on it, they'd ship it back to me, I'd try it out, ship it back, receive it again, get disgusted, and put it up for a year or 3. Drag it out again and try someone else.
Each of these guys had the unfortunate task of going in to try to fix a problem after someone else had tinkered with it. If they did any function/test fire at all. I doubt that it was more than a few rounds.
I got caught up in the 'down-sizing' of my previous employer and had too much time on my hands so started spending time on my #3 sons computer that he left when he moved out on his own. I discovered The High Road, and through this forum, a personable gent in the hills of North Carolina who liked dogs as well as 45's and was willing to take a hand at trying to correct someone else's errors. Thanks Johnny.
One of the things thats kinda neat about a 'forum' on the 'net is that people can ask for and receive, sometimes un-solicited, advise. So, in that same spirit, I have a bit of advise to offer: If you pay hard earned money for a product, and it doesn't perform as advertised/implied, send it back. If it still doesn't work, send it back again, and so on. If the product that you bought has a warranty, use it. Once you inject a third party into the loop of repairs, your warranty is voided and you start paying for poker lessons.
I'v been around the block a few times with this OM and was fortunate to make the acquaintance of a gent whose personal character shows in the work that he does.
Ah well, so much for my un-solicited advice and a sincere 'thank you' to all who responded to my request for help/diagnosis of the OM's finicky personality.
Well... Since this question of character has come up, let me say this again...
Salty went around with a pistol that 19 outta 20 people would have sold or traded off so that it would have been somebody else's problem... likely would have chuckled all the way home over their cleverness and wily business practices. He didn't do that, and because of his honesty, I offered to work on it for him. He didn't ask me... I asked HIM for a chance to make it right, and considered it an honor. It's always been my privelege to offer a hand to an honest man. Even at that, he flatly refused to let me do the work on it without paying me, though I offered.
If I see a post suggesting that the gun simply be passed along to the next sucker, not only will I not offer... I may not even tell the owner how to fix the gun... even if it's a dead simple problem.
Honesty does have its rewards... even if they're relatively small sometimes.
Saltydog... I thank YOU for entrusting ME with your problem. When your boys finish out their hitch with Uncle Sugar, the whole salty family has an invitation to come pull up a chair and set a spell with us.