So I finally got to go shooting last weekend and I have a concern. My holes were all over the targets. Some shots were good, but groups were very ugly. Either I'm way out of practice or I have a problem with my gun (probably both).
I notice a wobble in my barrel link. I'm not really good with measurements, but there is side to side and up & down play in the link. Should I stop carrying until I get it fixed? Should I send it in or is this an easy enough task to take on myself?
Would this affect accuracy? Or am I just looking for something to blame besides myself?
Do not carry this weapon untill you have it checked out by a competent gunsmith. It may be you or it may be the weapon,let him decide. Your life is precious,do not waste it on chance.
This thing you have is an M1911A1 - not a Swiss watch - and the average one has 0.010" of play in its linked system. That's from the barrel to the frame. The clearances for the link and pins are shown here:
The rest of it is between the slide stop pin and the frame. It's needed for reliable functioning. Even $3,000 custom target 1911's have it.
I wish I could do a quick video of it...
I'm not quite sure what the amount of play is on the slide stop side, but the barrel side just seem more wobbly than it has ever been. Maybe I could try punching out that pin (never done this before) and take a macro pic of the link. If I do this, and depending how the pic comes out, do you think you'd be able to tell if I need a new link or pin?
Don't forget that in a well-made 1911, the link is used only for unlinking the barrel. In other words, its function is just to pull the barrel down to unlock it from the slide grooves. It should not be the locking mechanism, in other words, it is not the link which should lock the barrel up, in the slide, when the pistol is in battery. That function is handled by the barrel feet riding on the slide stop pin.
With that said, I know very well that too many production 1911s use the link, to lock up the barrel. That is not the preferred method, though.
Do this test: on an empty gun, pull the slide back and release it, allowing it to return to battery. Now, use your thumb to press down on the exposed part of the barrel in the ejection port. Watch for any downward movement of that part of the barrel. If you see it moving down at all, then the barrel is locked by the link, not by the barrel feet riding the slide stop.
I am sorry to say that the only real fix for this issue is a new barrel.
There's a few things that come into play for accuracy with a 1911, and one major point is consistent lock up of the barrel. If your link has as much slop/play as you state, then your accuracy will suffer.
You'll have to do some measuring to see what the problem is. Look at the diagram above of the link & pin measurements, and check the hole in the barrel where the link pin goes as well, make sure all are in spec. If not, replace as needed.
What make and model 1911 do you have?
Keep in mind there is a vast difference between link-riding, rattles-when- shaken average mil-spec GI 1911 and the expensive models. It's the guns with retail prices far exceeding $1,000 that lock up tight when in battery and shoot 1-1/2" groups at 50 yards from a Ransom Rest. And there's nothing at all wrong with a link-riding, rattly, GI 1911. That's the way they were designed.
I tried the test and I do have downward movement. It's difficult to tell, but after playing with it for a minute it seems the barrel feet are not in contact with the slide stop pin during lockup. After shooting approx 1500 rounds, I imagine this has caused a bit of wear on the link and has resulted in the play I'm now experiencing (maybe not though, I'm quite the newb 'round here).
niemi24s - It's a RIA CS. Maybe I'm expecting too much from my humble little RIA. I just want to be sure this isn't something I should worry about function-wise (being my carry gun) or if I should contact Armscor. I live in Vegas, so bringing it to Pahrump is not a burden for me at all. Just after the horrible day at the range, it got me wondering about that link...
Go here and try these tests to see if your barrel is timed properly. If it passes the tests, then I wouldn't get too worried about anything. Just get the link snugged up, and go forth and shoot.
http://www.schuemann.com/LinkClick....abid=67&mid=445
The 0.010" of play I'd previously given was for an average M1911A1, and that's nearly the amount of up & down movement the barrel will have in such a gun when measured at the front of the ejection port. The maximum amount of play with in-spec parts would be close to 0.015".
The folks at Armscor should be able to measure the play in your gun.
And just because inquiring minds may want to know, the minimum amount of slop in an in-spec Gov't Model 1911's link system will be 0.0055". But all these plays mentioned are along the link's axis which is tilted 8.6deg in battery and at the link. When measured farther forward at the front of the ejection port, each must be reduced by 13.8% to compensate for these two factors, giving:
Maximum Measured Play = 0.0150 X 0.862 = 0.0129"
Average Measured Playy = 0.0100 X 0.862 = 0.0086"
Minimum Measured Play = 0.0055 X 0.862 = 0.0047"
I think I'll contact Armscor and see if Arnel will give it a look.
I'll report back with the outcome.
This is a CS (Compact Size). That's only a 3-1/2" barrel, with a sight radius that's an inch and a half shorter than on a Government model. That alone can make a huge difference in your group sizes. You should not mistake an Officers size pistol for a bullseye pistol. The short-barrel 1911s are not intended for long-range accuracy, they are intended for concealed carry and for use at typical self-defense distances (out to about 21 feet).
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the second part of Matt's sentence seems evident
"After shooting approx 1500 rounds, I imagine this has caused a bit of wear on the link "
I missed that.
I don't think 1500 rounds is enough to cause any wear on the link, though.
Despite being a compact though (with lovely little iron sights), with focus on trigger pull and overcoming recoil anticipation, I can be very accurate with it at any distance. I shot a 97% (349 of 360) on my CCW qualification with this gun and not to brag (ok maybe a little) I was able to shoot a beer can from about 100 feet or so with one shot that my Dad (retired LE) couldn't hit with his AR after exhausting a full magazine! Luck? Perhaps. Skill? ...Maybe a little of both. But it sure was cool to see the can explode after my one shot (don't worry, it was a Miller High Life, and a warm one at that) and to hear my Dad say he's proud of his son.
Anyway, back on subject, after shooting so horribly this last trip (inconsistant at best), I needed help from the forum to know if this loose barrel link might have contributed to my bad day at the range. If not, then I know it's me and I just need to go shooting more (oh bummer, right? )
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I don't think 1500 rounds is enough to cause any wear on the link,
though.
But if the barrell feet are not playing their part? It seems on my gun that the link is doing all the work in lockup. I'm not sure... hence why I'm here.
Some links are cut with oblong or oval holes for the pins to correct link down or lock up issues. Like posted before, the link only pulls the barrel out of lock up with the slide as they both recoil. By then the bullet is long gone. IMHO, I don't think the link is your problem.
The following gives the erroneous impression the link only does something during the recoil phase:
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...the link only pulls the barrel out of lock up with the slide as they
both recoil.
But after the recoil phase is over and the slide returns to battery, the barrel of any in-spec Government Model M1911A1 (manufactured to the most recent Ordnance specifications) is lifted up into position by the link - and only the link. The barrel's lower lugs never contact the slide stop (SS) pin until they meet in battery when the lug stops hit the aft surface of the pin. And the closest the lugs get vertically to the top of the SS pin is 0.004".
There's no "should" or "ought to" involved with any of this. It's how the gun was designed. And the design is shown on the blueprints, the most recent of which are available from http://www.nicolausassociates.com/ . The barrel blueprint available in our Tech Issues section is an outdated version.
You are correct. My thinking was about his accuracy problem.
When the link forces the barrel up into engagement with the slide's locking lugs any 'slop' in the system should be at a minimum. I would think that even with the slop he is seeing, the barrel/slide relationship should repeat when the slide goes to battery. It should not change his POI.
Has the OP measured the lock up of the barrel/slide? If he is getting enough lock up and the link is sized so that barrel lugs are stopping on the VIP he should be good to go. Or am I missing something?
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When the link forces the barrel up into engagement with the slide's locking
lugs any 'slop' in the system should be at a minimum.
Without access to the blueprints for the RIA CS, I can but go with those for the M1911A1. With a standard 278 link a Government Model's radial locking lugs will have about 0.039" of vertical engagement when the barrel is pushed down (putting the link into compression) and with the slide down on the frame. Were it not limited by the link system, that would leave about 0.020" of room for the barrel to move up, as shown here:
For the average 1911 this means the slop in the link system does not begin to get reduced until a link longer than a 278 link by about 0.012" is installed.
I see what your saying. Great drawing by the way.
I was taught to put a dime between the hood and breech face. Use a caliper with a depth gauge and measure from the top of the slide to the top of the barrel. Remove the dime and allow the slide to go to battery. Measure the same points again. The difference is your lock up.
0.035" is the minimum given me; max is all you can get.
Interested is hearing other opinions.
Let me try to put all this bazanga into perspective. You didn't say what range you were shooting at, but let's say it was 25 yards. At that distance an increase of 0.010" in the play in your link will increase your group size by 3.1 inches. If the range was 21 feet the group would open up by 7/8 inch.
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I was taught to put a dime between the hood and breech face. Use a caliper
with a depth gauge and measure from the top of the slide to the top of the
barrel. Remove the dime and allow the slide to go to battery. Measure the same
points again. The difference is your lock up.
I'm pretty sure that's how everybody else does it too. Not even sure if there's another way to do it.
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0.035" is the minimum given me; max is all you can get.
I tend to go with the 0.039" figure for the average Gov't Model - just because it seems like the thing to do. 1911Tuner has given a series of minimums he follows that are based on how often the gun's shot, but I've no recollection of what they are. They're floating around here somewhere in cyberspace.
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You didn't say what range you were shooting at, but let's say it was 25
yards. If the range was 21 feet the group would open up by 7/8 inch.
It was various ranges, but majority was shot about 21 feet.
I wasn't so disappointed with my holes at 100 feet, but the ugly results at 21 feet are what concerned me. Once I realized how horrible I was shooting, I started to really focus on trigger pull and sight picture... some were dead on, others were way off.
I think it's me. The more I dig into this, the more I feel I should get off the computer and go make some more holes in paper!
I just realized also that I was shooting junk ammo too (Crossfire Reloads)... They go "bang" (sometimes) but that's about it.
Also, I compared my gun to my dad's less-shot Citadel and they have about the same amount of play in that area.
Don't be too anxious to put blame on the ammunition. Years ago, I experimented with handloads with purposely varied powder charges, bullet weights and bullet balances. And the variances were quite large - not little dinky ones.
When shot from sandbags (no access to a Ransom Rest at the time) at 25 yards they all shot just like my carefully prepared handloads. That's when I quit worrying about all the things handloading experts said I should worry about.