I have a Randall that I have had a significant galling issue with. I have "heard" that the Randalls were a "hard" finished pistol. Does anyone know what the Rockwell hardness reading should be on these pistols? I had also heard that some units went out with improper heat treating. Not sure what is correct. Can anyone help out?
Various brands of 1911 frames are speced in the Rc 22-32 range. The stories that I have read about the Randall galling problem was related to incompatible alloys and not to hardness.
Try the Randall sub forum of the 1911 manufacturers sub forum. There's probably someone there who has the info you seek.
Thank you VERY much for the quick reply. I did have the frame and slide checked. It tested out to a rockwell of 22. Now here is the next question. What can I do about it to make it a shooter? Or is it more of a case of sell it to someone who wants it for their collection and get a shooter?
Quote:
Try the Randall sub forum of the 1911 manufacturers sub forum. There's
probably someone there who has the info you seek.
I did post a question up there about the rear sight that was on the gun NIB when I bought it quite a few years ago. Since the Rockwell is a technical issue I brought it here too.
If the harness checked Rockwell C 22, that is on the low end for a frame but much below any figures that I have seen for a slide. I was under the impression that the galling problem was due to the alloy used and not the hardness.
I can't think of anything other than trying different lubes to try and eliminate the galling.
You could have the gun chrome plated or refinished in any of the many gun finishes now available or for cheap try the Rig stainless lube - it was touted years ago as the lube to prevent galling in stainless pistols.
Rig was discontinued for a while but is now sold by Birchwood Casey.
from Sinclair's site:
Specifically formulated for stainless steel, this preservative's excellent adhesion properties reduce surface wear and prevent galling of treated parts. After cleaning your firearm apply a thin coat to slide rails, action bars, or any place that has potential for galling. Will not break down under high pressure or heat. Comes in a 1.5 oz. tube.
I haven't read what part of your in your pistol want a HRC (Hardness Rockwell C-scale) number for... remember that each part has different hardness requirements.
For instance the slide has hardness zones like this:
The barrel (4150) should be hardened to HRC 53-56
and the frame should be hardened to:
Forged steel 1035 or 1127: HRC 22-27 (early spec was 22-24)
Commercial 4130-4140:HRC 27-30
BTW... does hard finished mean case hardened?
I checked the various slide hardness values of a recent build as a quality check and measured these results:
John is correct. Proper lube will prevent galling between stainless frames and stainless slides. Some prefer copious amounts of oil, I prefer white lithium grease. This also works well on pistols with aluminum receivers.
Quote:
BTW.....does hard finished mean case hardened?
On which blueprint did you see "hard finish(ed)"?
Quote:
I... I have "heard" that the Randalls were a "hard" finished pistol.
The OP mentioned hard finish... so I was asking if they are hard finished... this would make the finish like Melonite or other hard finishes.
I tried lube. It didn't matter if I used oil or grease or if it was sloppy enough to resemble the old style MG's we had in the M60 tanks where the oil dripped off of it. It still galled. I even tried polishing the chamber area of the barrel and the locking lug area of the slide.
BTW the Rockwell testing was done on the underside of the slide in the area just next to the in battery depression. Since that is a constant wear location it should have been one of the harder areas on the slide. The frame was tested under the forward edge of the left grip panel.
As to the "hard finish" comment, I was repeating what I had seen posted on another bbs about Randall firearms from a person who claimed to be a gunsmith and had made several of them into competition guns. When I asked what the rockwell hardness was with those guns and why I was asking, he declined to answer.
At this point I am figuring I might as well sell the gun to someone who wants a collectors item. As a wall hanger it will "function" just fine. I'm not a collector, just a shooter. I bought this thing because at the time it was the only SS compact .45 auto out there and needed a good carry gun. I have since had experiance with an Colt Officers model so I know it was and is feasable.
Quote:
I tried lube. It didn't matter if I used oil or grease or if it was sloppy
enough to resemble the old style MG's we had in the M60 tanks where the oil
dripped off of it. It still galled. I even tried polishing the chamber area of
the barrel and the locking lug area of the slide.
Where did you notice galling? Randalls were known for a galling issue where the slide rode on the receiver, and the problem was that the alloy and hardness of the two parts was too close. This is a problem with stainless steel. Were the barrels also the same alloy and hardness as the slides?
The most obvious galling was between the slide and chamber area of the barrel. That's where I saw the marks on the chamber. My original thought was either an oversize chamber (outside diameter), not likely, or excess material on the slide to the rear of the locking lug area and making contact as they start to move back in recoil. Now neither the slide or frame show what I would consider to be a first class finish. Even the sides of the slide where polished were not terribly finely finished. There is a lot of cast "finish" rather than a polished part even where I would expect it to be smooth. Even the slide and frame rails are a bit rough on the top and bottom of them.
I tried grease on every moving part and coating the chamber but it still locks up partially open.
I have no idea of the rockwell on the barrel. I didn't have it tested.
There are big differences between galling, scuffing and spalling.
Galling is a process where excessive pressures cause two similar metals to weld themselves together during high contact pressures. Galling transfers material from one surface to another that leaves areas of what looks like pits or removed material on one part with build-up on the on part.
Scuffing is when a hard metal displaces metal on the softer metal part but there is typically no metal transfer to the hard metal part... sort of like filing or sanding.
Spalling is when surface pressures/stresses are high enough to break the weaker material apart.
Did your barrel scuff?
Barrel scuffs are common.
Hi Eric and thanks for the questions. I believe it's galling. I would find marks on the chamber part of the barrel that looked like lines or striations but when lightly filed readily came off leaving the barrel material looking clean again. It seemed like material was being left on the chamber area of the barrel from the underside of the slide as it cycled. When I first focused on this I thought the chamber was rough and causing the problem but neither a fine file or sand paper would make much of an impression on it. It just cleaned up and got shiny again. IMO uneducated opinion the chamber and barrel are harder than the slide.
The gun would actually lock up hard half way through the cycle with the slide partially open. At times I had to tap the rear of the slide with a mallet (hard plastic or rubber) to get it to release. Then I could disassemble the gun and try to fix the darn thing.
Adding lube just didn't do anything but spray it all over me when I fired the gun.
As far as the slide vs frame is concerned, cycling them by hand with the barrel out still was gritty and draggy. Grease helped there though.
All of my production pistols have scuff marks on the barrel hood.
Which include from left to right... Springfield TRP Operator, Sig P226 Blackwater, Colt LTWT Commander and Colt New Agent...
We need to correct some terminology being used so everyone understands what is being discussed.
A barrel chamber is the inside hole that holds the bullet / case.
A barrel hood is the outer area of the chamber that is visible when the pistol is in battery.
As I mentioned, most production pistol have scuff marks on the barrel hood.
I have customs that don't but that is a different story.
You mention that you have to bump the slide to chamber a round... this is a completely different problem... referred to as a Failure to Return To Battery (FTRB) which can be caused by an overly tight extractor or other simple problems...
A couple points here.
The marks were material transfer from the slide not just scratches. If it were just scratches but functioned I would not have a problem.
I did not say I had a fail to feed. I said I had a hard lock of the gun with the slide half way open. The extractor had not been engaged. I had to tap the slide with a tool because it locked so tight I could not move the slide in either direction by hand.
Sorry my terminology was insufficient.
More terminology...
Feed means that the bullet case entered the barrel chamber.
Battery means that the barrel has closed against the slide.
You describe a situation that a bullet has chambered into the barrel but the barrel doesn't fully close against the slide... which is a failure to return to battery...
I came here hoping to find an answer to the problem not get sniped about terminology.
Mod please close the thread I'm done here.
Quote:
I did not say I had a fail to feed. I said I had a hard lock of the gun
with the slide half way open. The extractor had not been engaged. I had to tap
the slide with a tool because it locked so tight I could not move the slide in
either direction by hand.
That's a failure to feed.
There are many possible causes, the last of which I would suspect to be galling. Galling occurs between two parts that are rubbing against each other under fairly high pressure. There is no significant pressure between the slide and the top of the barrel hood.
What were you using for ammo when the hard stoppages occurred? Did you remove the barrel and try the "plunk" test? Have you checked the extractor tension?
Please accept my apologies... I had a hard time understanding the posts. I tried to help by clarifying your situation...
I think we have a typo with scale designation. RC 53-56 is a mighty hard barrel... would you like to buy a "D".
OOPS... I am so used to typing RC that I slipped up. I believe that D53-56 converts to HRC 37-43...
Motorman, an Additional suggestion...
This FTRB with a hard lock can be the result of the barrel being long linked and out of time. If the barrel is positioned too far to the rear in its link down it won't allow the slide to time in its forward movement to let the lugs engage.The slide is usually a head of the barrel in its RTB. It will lock the pistol up hard and a dead blow hammer will usually be needed to separate or free the jam. It mimics galling, but it isn't as you can see from Egumpher's definitions.
One easy way to see if your slide is in spec for this problem is to measure from the bottom of the slide rails to the apex of the bottom of the first lug. 848" is mid spec and usually takes a # 3 link if the slide stop pin hole on the frame is in the right place. So if you add .010" to get to a #5 link that would translate to .858". The .010"+ can come from the frame or slide, but I see more slides with large variations rather than frames. So if you loosely translate this to .860"+ you are out of time for that pistol for a #5 link without getting squirrelly and looking for the old .290-298 bullseye links.
If you are up at .870" or greater you have a lot of excess you cannot compensate for and you are just plain "out of luck" for timing that pistol... a new slide is in order to fix the problem. (A mispositioned slide stop pin hole can also cause or exacerbate the problem if the slide meets the .848-.858" measurement for a #3-#5 link.)
It is not as easy a problem to diagnose as you might think and Motorman should take his pistol to a qualified 1911 'smith to have it properly measured and evaluated. YMMV.
Wow thank for that explanation... I will be studing it to make sure what youj just said. Man, I love this forum, so much information.