From the STI website... "The STI Extractor is manufactured out of high quality spring steel."
Is this similar to the spring steel JMB specified? Does anybody have any experience with them? How does this compare with the 4340/4140 variety?
Original print specs called for 1075 or 1090 steel of austenitic grain size 7 or smaller... heat-treated and drawn to spring temper. 4140 steel extractors are very good, and seem to be pretty tough, but just a bit unyielding to function correctly as a spring. The main factor in how long and how well an extractor does its job is in insuring that full controlled feed is maintained for every round, which is a function of the magazine, feed ramp and breechface geometry, and... to a lesser degree... slide velocity on the return to battery.
If the pistol is within spec... the extractor is made of good material and correctly fitted and tensioned... and the magazine is doing its job properly, there's no reason that the extractor won't last nearly the life of the gun with little or zero attention other than keeping it... and the channel... reasonably clean.
So if I want to buy an extractor made of the right material, what would it be?
I know the one in my Norinco is, but I could not get Norinco parts. Are the current Colt extractors still made of spring steel? I'm not sure where I read it but I believe that there was a time when Colt extractors are MIM or cast but are now again made out of barstock, but are they spring steel?
I asked about the STI because they are advertising it as spring steel and I could get them from shootersconnection. I know most of the good extractors (bulletproof, hardcore, EGW, etc...) are either 4140 or 4340
The term "spring steel" is very nebulous. There is a long list of steels that are used as springs. Automobile suspension springs are made from 5160 or 9260. But the requirements there are for fatigue strength to resist thousands of cycles. Gun springs have far lower needs than automobile springs... Tuner, I don't understand the comment that 4140 is a bit unyielding. That is a very common gun steel for many parts.
batoy, mete is correct. There are many steel alloys that are suitable for making "spring" steel... which is another way of saying that it's been hardened and drawn to a spring temper. All steel has a little spring in it... even wrought iron... but some steels are more suitable than others for a given application.
Cylinder & Slide shop uses 1090 steel, and I understand that Bar-Sto has also started offering 1090 extractors. Be aware that C&S extractor hooks are usually a little deep from tip to wall, and require a few swipes on a stone to get'em down to the point that they don't dig into the bottom of the extractor groove and cause a failure to go to battery.
That voids the warranty, as per C&S policy. Go figure...
mete... By "unyielding" I mean that the aftermarket extractors such as Wilson Bulletproof and... to a slightly lesser degree... the Brown hardcore.They're just plain tough, and hard to get the right bend for function... but once set... they hold onto it for a long time. The only problem is that they refuse to spring open as readily as a 1090 extractor. Not a real issue with new, in- spec ammo... but as reloader who insists on using brass until the headstamp is obliterated, they're much less forgiving of oversized rim diameters. So... If I start with a 4340 extractor, I'm forced to start with a little less tension than I like to use, so that the gun will continue to run with my funky reloads after they're past the point that I should toss'em and start with a fresh lot of brass. It's a minor thing, though, and not a reason to pass'em up.
Another issue is that they are much less likely to climb the rim during a lost-control misfeed, and even though this isn't the way it's supposed to work, it's a backup of sorts... just in case the magazine is functioning at less than optimum. A failure to go to battery without the hook over the rim is a slow stoppage to clear in a life&death/Up to your Crack in Crocodiles kinda thing.
It all goes back to the view that I take of a 1911 pistol... or any sidearm for that matter. A correctly fitted and tuned 1090 extractor will jump the rim.
A 4340 extractor requires a little more extensive modification to match that.
Not hard to do... just mainly a nuisance.
Oppsss.
The C&S extractor is available in .45ACP only and I can't find BarSto extractor on the Net. The extractor is for my 40S&W ARMSCOR widebody. Sorry guys, forgot to mention it . Good info, just the same.
So, anyone has any experience with the STI?
Bar-Sto
You'll probably have to call Irving Stone direct. I talked to him about a year ago, and he confirmed the reports, but said that he wasn't ready to go public with it until production capability was able to meet projected demand. He may have even scrapped the project by now. He told me that they'd sell for about 30 bucks a copy, with a discount to 27 dollars on a 10-part order.
SVI makes a VERY nice extractor, as does Caspian.
I am a BIG fan of the AFTEC extractor. They are easier to fit than a standard extractor for amatuers, they don't need tuning, they flat work, and they are extremely tough. I use AFTEC extractors in all of the guns are care about now, and keep mostly SVI for backups. $70 is a tad steep for an extractor, but I think they are worth every cent.
Do they last longer than the standard extractor in a heavy use gun? That should justify the higher price.
I don't know the answer to that question for sure. I am sure Tuner has a standard style extractor with a LOT of miles on it, I have had a couple go over 50K rounds myself without ever being touched aside from cleaning. My thing now is competitive shooting, the last standard extractor I had in a competition gun broke during a match. Of course it broke when I needed it to work, when was the last time something broke when you didn't need it I had a hundred and a half in entry fee, $50 in ammo, $125 in fuel, etc. The cost of an AFTEC is pretty trivial when I add up what I spend to compete. Talking to guys that shoot a LOT and have done so for years and years I have not been able to find anyone that has broken an AFTEC, and we have ALL had standard extractors break. I know a couple guys with AFTEC extractors over 100K rounds. This leads me to believe that they are a good bit tougher on average than standard extractors.
I have also seen extraction problems cleared up completely with the addition of an AFTEC, they don't require anywhere near the skill to fit and tune that a standard extractor needs and that really is the sole reason they 'fixed' the gun. Most guys and gals out there can file/grind/chew a bevel, and that is all that is needed to install an AFTEC. Most guys and a few gals think they can tune a standard extractor when they actually aren't even in sniffing distance of the first clue on what needs to be done.
I think the AFTEC is a better mousetrap, but I can't prove it by any means other than talking to hard core competitive shooters and listening to what has worked best for them.
100k rounds mileage sounds pretty impressive. Did he have to replace any part of the extractor? As I understand it's a mechanism by itself. Haven't seen an actual sample. Are the standard extractors capable of going 100K and beyond?
batoy wondered:
Are the standard extractors capable of going 100K and beyond?
I've pulled standard extractors out of a couple of mine that have gone 75- 80K... but not because they were giving a problem. Just felt like it was time for a fresh one. The used ones ride in my range box just in case. I gave one away earlier in the year, when a guy had a new Springfield with a bad extractor that wouldn't behave. As far as I know, it's still in the gun.
Proper magazine function often has a lot to do with how long an extractor lives.
The AFTEC is made up of two little coil springs, an extractor, and a machined steel spring cap. I have talked to a couple guys that replaced the springs on them. The springs cost about $4, and most guys claim to replace them every 20-25K rounds whether they need it or not.
A good spring steel extractor properly fitted and some good magazines OR an AFTEC? Both has the potential to last very long, both works... hmm
No matter what the magazines need to be right or you will have more problems than just extractor problems. The AFTEC won't make up for bad magazines. You will have to use good magazines no matter what way you go with extractors. I think I mentioned the magazines need to be good
1911Tuner, comparing the "springy" 1090 extractor to the "stiffer" 4340 extractor... is the metal thickness different on the two? :)
Theory sez that the stiffness is the same for iron and its alloys and so what usually passes for stiffness differences usually turns out to be size differences.
Alvin... I'd rather think that it's more related to the tempering, since they don't have enough added thickness of the stem... with the exception of the Wilson heavy-duty part.
1911Tuner... Yeah everything in the world would point to tempering effecting the stiffness but it's not that way really. :)
Stiffness has to do with the "elastic stretch" between the iron atoms and all steel has the same stiffness. Now yield points vary, not only "when" but what happens when the yield point is exceded.
Three choices when the yield point is exceded, breaks as in "brittle failure" bends and stays bent as in "plastic deformation" or some of both of those. Up until then all steel is the same stiffness. Weird sounding as anything I know, but true anyway. No kidding. :)
So again... is the "stiffer one" just a little bit thicker or wider or both? :)
Even just a little? ;)
Question:
So again... is the "stuffer one" just a little bit thicker or wider or
both? Even just a little?
Nope. The 4340 extractors just don't seem to be quite as springy is all...
Be aware that C&S extractor hooks are usually a little deep from tip to wall, and require a few swipes on a stone to get'em down to the point that they don't dig into the bottom of the extractor groove and cause a failure to go to battery.
Can an extractor with a too deep hook be tensioned well enough to not cause FTGTB?
If two extractors of the same kind, say 2 C&S, properly tensioned to not cause FTGTB but one is stopped by the tip of the hook (not ideal?) and the other properly configured to engage the brass head by the hook wall (best), are there any reliability disadvantage(s) against the first? I am imagining that the extractor that touches the brass deep in the channel groove by its tip will be a little further out and may have an advantage to snap over a chambered round that ran away from the slide.
Just to feed more info to the wondering mind, Tuner.