I shoot 10 mm through Delta Elites (mostly). I shoot at an indoor range where there are no range clear times, so I can pick up my brass only if it lands behind the firing line. One of my DE's cooperates in this project like a champ, ejecting the empties to the right and a little behind straight out, so I get 80-90% of my brass back. The other one, however, isn't so helpful. It kicks them forward (not far, but enough) so they fall out of reach (I get a few, but not even half). They are both pre-enhanced DE's with fewer than 2,500 rounds through them.
Both are setup the same. 22-pound recoil springs and steel guides, 25-pound mainspring in a Brownells steel mainspring housing and an EGW firing pin stop with a 1/16" lower radius. I use the same Colt and Mec-Gar magazines for both. Ammunition doesn't seem to matter (the factory stuff I shoot is Rem Peters 180-grain JTC off the shelf, the reloads are 180-grain Hornady JTC in front of Win 231). My social ammuntion is Win 175-grain Silver Tips and I am less (way, way less) concerned about recovering the brass if I have to expend that.
I have examined the ejectors as carefully as I know how. They appear to be the same. The front angles appear to be the same (I have not used any precision measuring devices to absolutely determine this - I only have a machinist's protractor, some machinists scales and a vernier caliper - if something else is needed, I know enough machinists that I can probably get the use of it).
So, my question is, can you "tune" an ejector to toss the brass back or is there something else I'm overlooking? Or what? Suggestions gratefully received, ladies and gentlemen.
Another gentleman vastly more knowledgeable than I recently suggested using shock buffers in the DE and recommended CP Bullets clear nylon guys. These are on the way from Brownells. Will these change the equation (since they do change the length of the slide movement)?
Pull the extractors and lay them side-by-side. If the ejectors match the one throwing the brass behind probably has a little more tension on it. Might be hook shape too but probably not.
I am confused. An ejector doesn't have any tension and the extractor doesn't play much of a role in where the brass goes, it only acts as a pivot point for the ejector.
"Tuning" the ejector is easy, but you need some thought about what you are going to do. Extended ejectors are usually a waste of money, but they also can be tuned. You need to think about where the case hits when it is coming back. The ejector angle, in both dimensions, is critical as to where the case strikes and what effect it has on the case.
Jim is pretty much spot on, though I have been able to play with the extracto hook geometry and alter the way the case twists off... releases from the extractor... though it effects a very small change. The length of the claw, as much as anything else has an effect, especially if used along with an extended ejector.
The ejector can be tuned to change the angle of exit from the port, and it's not hard to determine what to do. Just view the ejector from behind and visualize how you want the case to roll out of the port. Put a very small angle on the nose... sometimes a compound angle is needed... to change the way it moves when the case strikes it.
The point of impact on the case also has an effect. Oddly enough, the higher on the case it contacts, the more straight up the ejection is in most instances... and the lower it hits, the more straight out. If you have a standard, or "GI" type of ejector... study the angle and the impact point on the nose to get an idea on where you want it to impact.
Last... Extended ejectors strike the case while the slide is still covering the magwell. This prevents the upcoming round from bumping the empty case as it rises into position, which places all the responsibility of angling the case out of the port on the extractor and the ejector geometry.
Bottom line... Tuning for the desired angle of ejection is usually a study in trial-and-error to find out what effect different impact points and angles have. An extended ejector will allow some experimentation because you can always file it flat and start over...u ntil you run out of nose.
So the answer is: just start fiddling with the ejector in really small increments by shaping the nose. Since I want it out to the side, a lower hit is likely better. If I mess it up, then I stake a new part in and start over?
I think this sounds like a outdoor range project where I have a bench at the firing point and I can take my little tool box.
When altering ejectors, remember that a little goes a long way, and that goes for angles too. A very small change in angle will produce a change that's out of proportion to that change.
Sorry for not typing a more clear explanation. If the ejectors match almost exactly and the ejection pattern isn't even close to the same you should look at the extractors. Odds are there is a difference between them. I have made differences in throwing brass to the front or to the rear with extractor tension on my guns without changing the ejector tip shape.
HSMITH wrote:
I have made differences in throwing brass to the front or to the rear with
extractor tension on my guns without changing the ejector tip shape.
Yep. A longer claw that hangs on will tend to kick'em forward too, especially if an extended ejector is in the gun. Near as I can tell...it delays the release of the case long enough for the slide to catch it on the return to battery...and bats it forward.
Tuner, my theory was that the slide velocity is higher when the case contacts the ejector when using a longer ejector, and that is the primary cause of them going more forward than when using a standard length ejector. I will freely admit though that I haven't really put much thought into it, it has been more about observing what happens with different combinations.
I have seen the slide bat them forward as well, LOL sometimes they go a LONG way forward!
I have seen the ejection pattern more forward with less extractor tension and further back with more tension, does that concur with what you see?
HSMITH wondered:
I have seen the ejection pattern more forward with less extractor tension
and further back with more tension, does that concur with what you see?
Sometimes. Sometimes it's exactly 180 degrees. The one thing that I've found is that little things often have big effects.
Basically, I don't get too anal about ejection patterns. As long as it doesn't smack me between the eyes, I don't care if it piles up beside my feet in a 2-foot circle or flies into the next county.
My uncle had the dangdest knack for ejection tuning. He'd fiddle with the extractor and the ejector a little... fire one round, and watch to see where it landed... center a 5-gallon bucket on the spot... and 90% of his fired brass would fall in the bucket. I can get close to that most times... but I've never been able to duplicate it with that level of consistency.
I doubt I can match your uncle, but when I was doing it pretty regularly, I could get the brass to go where I wanted with pretty quickly. That is one reason I have never been a big fan of enlarging the ejection port so a bum ejector won't tie up the gun. It is like finding your car door lock frozen and correcting the problem by cutting off the door with a torch.
I am definitely gonna use that one!
I don't care much for opening up the ports either. Maybe bevel a sharp edge on the inside, but that's about it. Problem is... nowadays, most of 'em have it as a standard feature, and never mind all the trash it lets in around the barrel and lower lug/link area.
I have had to get all tied up about ejection patterns with some of the optically sighted 1911ish guns, 'tis a total pisser to have a case bounce off the optic or mount right back into the ejection port and lock it up with the clock running! You win some and you lose some, but you really can only lose if you don't learn from it.