Guys, if you will permit yet another question concerning disconnectors, I would love to pick everyone's brains. I did see the most recent disconnector thread, but I have a slightly different problem.
A couple of weeks ago, I was out going to show a Glocker how to really shoot and my trusty Kimber Series 1 failed me. I'm blasting away and about three or four rounds into my string, I press the trigger and nothing happens. I flick the safety on and off, shake the gun, etc. and no joy. It did it twice or three times to me and I hung it up and used my XD45 tactical after that.
History of my disconnector: I never heard a peep out of it until after I had my gun painted by M&R Arms in Michigan. They used KG Gunkote and spread it on ultra thin (I guess less than 0.001"). When I got the gun back, I shot it and experienced one or two failures to fire and chalked it up to the new paint. After things wore in, it never failed again. I probably put 500+ rounds through it, then went to Front Sight in Oct of last year. 650 rounds later, still no issues.
A week or two before I did my last shoot mentioned above in the beginning of my post, I detail cleaned and stripped my pistol. Upon reassembly, my problem was back. It didn't seem to have a rhyme or reason to it, or a pattern. Sometimes, shaking the gun could cause it to fail. Other times, not. Same with the safety. I adjusted the overtravel stop for the trigger so that it couldn't be a problem. Looked at the operation of the leaf spring and its engagement, not seeing any trouble. Looking at the pistol right now, pressing down on the disconnector reveals smooth positive action.
What the heck is going on? Why is my pistol making fun of me in front of Glock owners? Why is it ruining my confidence in it? Please help me!
Disconnect failing to reset completely. If you feel or hear a "click" as you pull the trigger, that's the disconnect slipping off the sear. Detail-strip and check for free movement of the disconnect in its channel. Adding a little tension to it by bending the center leg f the sear spring forward a bit may help. Grasp it above the junction to prevent breaking it off.
If somebody changed the sear spring, the center leg may be contacting too far up on the disconnect. About mid-point or slightly below... maybe .010 inch... is good.
I'll check the spring. It's stock and I think I tensioned it a little more, but not before I had the initial problem after having it painted. Maybe the guys that painted my gun changed the spring?
I can't get it to fail under dry-fire conditions.
The spring leaf touches the disconnector about 1/3 the way up and its range of motion doesn't reach either end, maybe 2/3 up the disconnector when fully engaged. Hand cycling the action while the trigger is trapped back results in an audible click when the trigger is released, then re-pressing it drops the hammer.
When it was failing, I could repeatedly pull the trigger without effect.
Quote:
When it was failing, I could repeatedly pull the trigger without
effect.
The disconnect isn't fully resetting. The click I was referring to was when you pull the trigger. You can hear and feel it slip off the sear legs. Can you detail-strip the gun and get the disconnect out of it?
If not... Try a little light oil around it, and move the disconnect through its range of motion. If that helps... the gun needs to be detail stripped and thoroughly cleaned.
What's got me is, I had just done that before shooting that fateful day. Detail stripped it. Engagement with the sear legs looks ok, but must not be, huh?
Quote:
The disconnect isn't fully resetting. The click I was referring to was when
you pull the trigger. You can hear and feel it slip off the sear legs. Can you
detail-strip the gun and get the disconnect out of it?
If not... Try a little light oil around it, and move the disconnect through its range of motion. If that helps... the gun needs to be detail stripped and thoroughly cleaned.
I can get the disconnect out of the gun. What am I looking for?
Take a look at the notch in the bottom the slide's disconnector rail. Maybe it got some paint in it that prevents the disconnector from being pushed up all the way when the gun's in the battery position.
Maybe. Cheers
I thought of that, too. It doesn't even reach the top of that notch. Paint is scraped away on both sides, but not in the middle. So, when the gun is in battery, the disconnect doesn't even touch but is fully up.
Quote:
Engagement with the sear legs looks ok, but must not be, huh?
Engagement can be fine until the trigger starts to exert pressure. If the sear spring isn't positively keeping it in place... it can slip off... and down into the disconnected position.
So, tighten the spring? Why would this happen during firing but not dry- firing?
Quote:
So, tighten the spring?
Clean the channel first, and remove all traces of the paint.
Quote:
Why would this happen during firing but not dry-firing?
Because dry-firing doesn't duplicate the dynamics of firing and recoil.
Quote:
So, tighten the spring?
Yes, but...
...before bending the center leaf of the sear spring forward (to make it push the disconnector up with more force) make sure this leaf does not now protrude into the magazine well through the clearance slot in the frame.
If there's any chance the magazine could have been touching the center leaf, that might possibly have been the cause of the problem. Contact by the magazine would reduce the pressure of the center leaf on the disconnector.
If it does protrude into the magazine well, bend it so it doesn't.
If it doesn't protrude into the magazine well, bend it for more pressure on the disconnector - but don't bend it so it does protrude into the magazine well.
Clear as mud? Cheers
I tightened the spring. That made it not fire. So I loosened the leaf and that brought it back to normal. Going to shoot it now.
Quote:
I tightened the spring. That made it not fire. So I loosened the leaf and
that brought it back to normal. Going to shoot it now.
Hmmmm...
Did any paint get on the stirrup of the trigger bow or the on the disconnector where they meet?
Is the central portion of the lower aft edge of the stirrup chamfered to provide clearance for the center leaf as it moves the disconnector upward (and as the trigger is pulled)? Some guns don't need this chamfer - it all depends on the contour of the center leaf.
How'd it shoot?
This one's gonna be hinky. The disconnect either isn't resetting, or it's slipping off the sear when the trigger presses on it.
Any way that you can post a picture of the sear spring bearing on the disconnect with the disconnect fully down in the frame? Use the mainspring housing... part-way installed to hold the sear spring in place.
Well, fiddlesticks! Read Post #16 so fast I churned up a pix from my gun. Anyway, here it is just in case Sgt Schultz can't post a pic of his - maybe give you both the same thing to refer to:
Disconnector is down in left view, up in right view
Good Pictures, as usual Dan.
Note the position of the end of the leaf with the disconnect in the down... or disconnected position... at mid-point. (In my haste, I neglected to mention the position earlier.)
If the end of the leaf is much higher than what is shown, it very often interferes with the disconnect's reset and causes the problems that you've noted.
Johnny, look at the right pic, and the position of the spring on the disconnect... appears to be a bit low or short to me.
I'm wondering whether Niemi24s is right about the spring bending out into the mag well. I reduced the pressure on the disconnect and that seems to have solved the problem. I took the gun out and shot more than 100 rounds through it. I fired normally, fast, slow, trapping the trigger back, not trapping, over the shoulder (for fun), one handed, two handed, never limp wristing, though.
No failures to fire (only my usual stoppages that are probably from a semi- loose extractor, or possibly from the gun being stupidly finicky, or maybe I need extra power mag springs). I haven't gotten to putting in the oversize firing pin stop thingy just yet and will have to look up the thread for that where Tuner told us the specs.
Thanks guys for your help. I'm still thinking of getting some excellent pictures for your perusal.
Quote:
appears to be a bit low or short to me.
A little... but short ones don't normally cause a failure to fire. They're more like to cause it to fire too much... as in BUUUUURRRRP!
You can ask me how I know...
Hi Wichaka: The pic is not of the OP's gun - it's of mine. And it has never given sear spring related problems [knock on wood!]
Quote:
I'm wondering whether Niemi24s is right about the spring bending out into
the mag well.
Howzabout it, folks - is it OK for the magazine to be able to contact the center leaf?
I never thought it was, but I've been wrong before.
Quote:
I reduced the pressure on the disconnect and that seems to have solved the
problem.
Perhaps in doing so, the contour of the center leaf was changed so that it no longer protrudes into the magazine well.
Could also be, maybe, that if the stirrup/disconnector/center leaf contacting surfaces are a bit rough, the reduced pressure reduced the frictional forces and allowed normal operation.
Quote:
Howzabout it, folks - is it OK for the magazine to be able to contact the
center leaf?
Well... I'd say that if we can't nail it down to the way the spring contacts, that we might wanna take a look to see if the magazine is touching the corner of the disconnect.
I'll take some really good pictures tonight. Problem is, 800x800 pixels really limits the quality.
Might wanna post a pic of the disconnect where it may be rubbing on the magazine... we can see if there's contact marks.
Ok, here's the photos. I couldn't get one to work of the inside of the gun. One thing that makes me think that it's not the leaf spring touching a mag is because dry firing was a problem with the leaf spring tightened, but no mag was present.
PICTURE 404
Disconnect up
PICTURE 404
Slight side view, disconnect up.
PICTURE 404
With the disconnect pushed all the way down.
The line just above the end of the spring in the second photo... Is that just a color blemish, or a defect?
Guys, wouldn't you say some polishing was in order above & below where that black mark is? Also the other side of disconnector that rubs on stirrup? Awesome pics, though.
I'm surprised the parts were not removed before painting. Me thinks there's the problem. All the contact surfaces have been gummed up with paint.
Quote:
I'm surprised the parts were not removed before painting. Me thinks there's
the problem. All the contact surfaces have been gummed up with paint.
My, MY, MY, They say a picture is worth a thousand words. I wouldn't have thought that would run at all, it's hard not using four letter words sometimes. It looks like it was run through a dip tank and very well might have. It appears that you can see gouge marks in the coating. The problems are very understandable at this point. Great picture by the way. Looks to be a quart low on oil also.
Detail strip and polish contact points,lubricate, and enjoy a fine shooter. It has to be a fine shooter to have gone over a thousand rounds before trouble. Sgt. Schultz, if you where in So. Cal. I'd do it for free cause it would be rewarding to make it right again.
Quote:
I'm surprised the parts were not removed before painting. Me thinks there's
the problem. All the contact surfaces have been gummed up with paint.
Yep... and if that black line is what I think it is... the disconnect is beyond polishing.
Sarge... Who did you say painted this gun?
Sweet spirits of camphor! I'm speechless - almost. Great pix, by the way.
I'd call the folks that coated it and see what (if any) paint stripper would work.
My condolences.
I see what you saw on the disconnect... that dark line.
Yep, me thinks a new part is in order, as it appears to be a defect.
I certainly see the dark line on the wedge, and believe it is the coating piled up from the scraping of the leaf. The other line of course is a parting line.
The truth be had by he that holdth and cleanith.
You guys are so funny. The paint is KG Gunkote done by M&R Arms in Mich. I don't think the disconnect is damaged, but is painted to somewhere around 1/1000" thick. The paint is supposed to have lubricity of it's own. I can still polish that part. I read somewhere here that I can use valve grinding compound or some polishing agent on denim to just barely polish the part?
Ok, here's my take and tell me if I'm wrong. It seems that I've had no trouble after re-adjusting the center leaf to have less tension (over 100 rounds). I'm wondering if the profile of the leaf when compressed in the gun was also in the path of the trigger such that when it traveled back to trip the sear, the leaf was contacted just in time to drop the disconnect partially out of the way (sometimes entirely depending upon where my finger was on the trigger. Higher = better reliability). I was bending the leaf closer to the middle and more towards the bottom instead of closer to the top. Maybe that changed the profile of the compressed spring?
See how the paint is gone a little higher than I can duplicate by pressing down on the disconnect? That should only be possible if the trigger bow were contacting the leaf and allowing the disconnect to drop way down? Either that or my thumb ain't so strong while I'm holding a camera.
sgt., Okay, I understand your point about you not being able too push the disconnect down far enough with your thumb, too match the mark with the spring tip. Realize that the mark occurs during firing and the disconnect isn't pushed, it's slammed down by the action of the slide flying back during recoil.
At minimum I would suggest that you polish the wedge of the disconnect by sliding it back and forth in the same direction as it's action on, 400gr. to clean up, then finer, I have some 2000gr. that I like to finish up on.Back the paper on the table with something flat, like a piece of glass. Maintain the original angle.
The sear spring leaves should also be polished where they make contact. On the left and especially the middle, the corner that makes contact, should be stoned on a 45 degree angle and then lightly polished, being careful not too shorten them.
Please use a little gun oil (any kind at this point) on all contact, and pivot points.
This should have brought you to a starting point of dependable function.
Here's a (kind of fuzzy) pic of one way to eliminate contact between the trigger bow's stirrup and the center leaf of the sear spring:
Quote:
Here's a (kind of fuzzy) pic of one way to eliminate contact between the
trigger bow's stirrup and the center leaf of the sear spring:
One good good thing about the coating being every where, it will show where contact has been made. Sgt. will be able too see a mark on the center leaf if in fact the stirrup has been touching. And take action if needed. I believe the trigger has an over travel adjustment and shouldn't be a problem.
Quote:
The paint is KG Gunkote
I'm aware of what GunKote is.
So, you're okay with the insides and internal parts of your pistol being painted then...
Curious...
Quote:
I'm aware of what GunKote is.
So, you're okay with the insides and internal parts of your pistol being painted then...
Curious...
It seems to wear off fine where the metal to metal contact is needed. It just needed an initial 50 round break-in period to get going. I'm almost positive something I did made it malfunction because it went 1,000 rounds before malf. and after I undid my adjustments it went over 100 rounds with no hint of trouble. I was looking for corrosion resistance. My hands are deadly on even stainless guns.
You think the paint was the cause?
Quote:
You think the paint was the cause?
Well, not speaking for anyone else... I'd have too say... maybe... might have been the cause ... or... could have been the cause... thinking harder now... YES, I DO! Starting too feel better now. Think smooth, think oil, think it might help!
If that were mine I'd strip all the paint off the internal parts and the inside surfaces of the frame and slide then do a good job of polishing the mateing surfaces (leave the hammer hook and point of the sear alone unless you have a stoneing jig).
If your hands are very caustic and cause rust you might need to wear latex gloves while cleaning. Then oil 'er up good, reassemble and try 'er out.
Quote:
You think the paint was the cause?
The pictures on post #27... Notice the bare area on the far right leg of the sear spring?
In law enforcement circles, that there's what's known as a clew...
...known as a clew on the east coast and known as a clue on the west coast... equals THE PAINT DID IT We thinks.
You guys do realize each part was individually painted while the gun was disassembled, right?
Ok, if it's a clew or clue, then HOW did the paint do it with the candle stick in the conservatory?
Oh, I use Rem Oil, btw. And the gun had troubles shortly after degreasing, cleaning, and re-oiling (and readjusting the sear tension...).
Quote:
You guys do realize each part was individually painted while the gun was
disassembled, right?
Ok, if it's a clew or clue, then HOW did the paint do it with the candle stick in the conservatory?
Oh, I use Rem Oil, btw. And the gun had troubles shortly after degreasing, cleaning, and re-oiling (and readjusting the sear tension...).
What ever the chain of events has been, and I'm not discounting it, the dig marks on the disconnect is more than enough evidence as too the cause of the problem. I don't believe the things you did actually caused the problem, just exasperated it, reseting is the function of the disconnect and yours is handicapped. Any roughness on the wedge, either side is asking for trouble, yours is, and it is. The candle stick is another matter.
Paint may very well have a higher coefficient of friction than polished metal surfaces despite what the paint manufacturer's say about the lubricant properties of their paint. Also paint being softer than metal will tend to wear away and chip as we can see in your photos (great pictures BTW).
The OP said the reason he had it GunKoted was for protection against corrosion, and the stuff is probably very good for this.
However, what's the chance that petroleum based lubricants are not the best choice because they may soften the coating a bit?
Maybe one of the Teflon-based dry lubricants would be a better choice. The liquid carrier (for the Teflon) in the stuff I use evaporates very quickly leaving a film of dry lubricating powder on the surface.
And for all we know, Sgt Schultz may be a deep sea diver and this is his carry gun!
Yes, this is all very possible, but the fact remains that now, for whatever reason the disconnector is BOOGERED UP !
So far after 100+ rounds it's back to normal with no failures, but I'll polish the surfaces just to please you guys.
Quote:
...I'll polish the surfaces just to please you guys.
Don't polish them for us. Polish them only if YOU think it's necessary.
The gun works now, and if you're not familiar with the tools and techniques used on the fire control group of parts, there's some chance the job could be inadvertently botched. Then you'd be back at square one.
If it's not a carry gun, I'd keep shooting it "as is" and give it the test of time.
From what you say it's not broken now, so what needs fixing?
niemi, I'd like to think we're on the same side of the fence, as I have gained respect for your views in the past, however when a condition such as this cries out so loudly(maybe only I could hear it) and visibly for us all to see, I have to respectfully disagree with leave it "as is".
Whether or not sgt_schultz wants to improve the condition of his gun, is not the question. He needs too, and it's the right thing too do.
What is also true is he doesn't have too. But then he asked the question.
How many thousand rounds do I have to shoot to prove reliability?
When I get some time, I'll get on that polishing. Got lots on the ol' plate right now so I'll either risk it as a carry gun, or carry the XD45, Kimber 3", or AR-15 pistol until I get the polishing done.
What do you guys recommend for a polishing agent? Or are you just saying I need to get that 1000 grit sandpaper?
niemi, After much soul searching and wringing of hands I'd have too say I changed my mind. You were right to say what you did.
I'm turning over a new leaf and am going to start painting the inside of all my guns. How about that really cool hammer tone stuff, but then I've always been partial to black wrinkle finish just love that stuff
Quote:
How many thousand rounds do I have to shoot to prove reliability?
Depends on its intended use, but for a carry gun I read the FBI required 1911's recently submitted for adoption have no more than 1 malfuncion in every 2,500 rounds.
Quote:
...I'll either risk it as a carry gun, or carry the XD45, Kimber 3", or AR-
15 pistol until I get the polishing done.
Uh oh! That changes things!! Maybe you said so earlier and I missed it, but for carry you'll just have to decide which of the 4 will go bang when you need it the most.
If it was mine, I wouldn't use it for carry until I'd removed all the GunKote from the fire control groups working surfaces, jpolished them and shot it at least several hundred rounds. I'm kinda wishy-washy on the number of rounds because my carry gun's a revolver.
Quote:
What do you guys recommend for a polishing agent? Or are you just saying I
need to get that 1000 grit sandpaper?
These surfaces (when not painted) are usually finished & polished with a series of successively finer India and Arkansa stones.
But I just learned GunKote is Teflon based, and I've never tried removing it. All I know is no solvent will remove it and it's likely to load and gum up any stone (abrasive file). You might try scraping it off with a knife blade in some unimportant area.
If you do use "sandpaper", auto parts places usually have small packages of silicon carbide coated abrasive sheets (sandpaper) in grits all the way down to 1000 or 2000. Be sure to back the paper up with something flat to help avoid rounding anything off too badly.
If the sear nose and hammer hooks are painted too, I'd be real wary of doing anything to them. Get something wrong here and you can have a gun that'll empty a magaizine with one squeeze of the trigger!
Quote:
I'm turning over a new leaf and am going to start painting the inside of
all my guns.
Me too - as soon as they come up with a spray can that'll apply a nice Tartan plaid pattern!