I've got a Series 70 gun that has just recently started having problems.
It seems that the trigger doesn't reset on the last shot of the magazine and a bump to the mag well area with my finger off the trigger lets it reset and fire that last round.
My first line of thinking is that it's a disconnect problem so I detail stripped the gun and Very lightly went into the disconnect channel with a fine needle file to see if I could locate any burrs. After this, I bent the center leg of the sear spring inward just a little to put more pressure on the disconnect.
I took the gun to the range and while dry firing, and holding the trigger rearward while cycling the slide and then releasing the trigger to let it reset, it seemed to reset with more authority, live fire produced many failures to reset on the last round.
I've got a new sear spring on order but I was wondering if I’m looking in the right direction here.
Pop the trigger out of the gun and clean the channel it rides in. Lube lightly and put the trigger only back in, it should slide freely as you tip the frame forward and back. Also check with all of your magazines inserted. If it doesn't you need to find out where it is dragging. If it does put the sear spring in and check tension on the trigger take-up travel without the disconnector installed. I like to see about 1-1.5 pounds on a trigger pull guage for a carry gun. If you have less than that put a little more on the trigger leg of the sear spring. Then install the disconnector and see how much you have, I like to see 2.5-3 pounds.
Then install the sear and make sure you can HEAR it snap into the hammer halfcock notch and the full cock notch.
Should be fixed by the time you check all of that.
Ok, the trigger channel was clean I checked it again. the trigger falls in and out easily. mags dont seem to be rubbing anywhere on the bow when inserted.
Without the disconnector installed I'm reading 2lbs takeup.
With the disconnect installed I'm reading a little over 3.5 lbs takeup.
Can hear the sear click nicely.
Is the face of the disconnect smooth? Back of the trigger stirrup? Any burrs or sharp edges at the top or bottom of the stirrup?
When the trigger hangs up, does it seem to be slanted downward into the bottom of the trigger guard... and can you get it to reset if you push up on it? Sometimes too much up/down play in the channel can cause the trigger to hang up on the disconnect.
I ran into a trigger reset problem not long ago with a King's trigger. I finally figured that it was just a bad trigger... bow attached at the wrong angle, and never did get it to behave. Tossed it and installed another one... Presto!
If ya can't get it squared away, bring the gun with ya next visit and I'll have a look-see. I've only got about 3 dozen triggers. Surely we can find one that'll do ya right.
Let me ask ya sumthin, how much spring leaf should be contacting the disconnect when its at rest? This one seems to be contacting just the bottom of the disconnect.
When it hangs up, I can move the trigger back and forth in its channel, doesnt seem to be stuck but moving it wont reset it. Only when I bang on the gun will it reset.
Okay... the trigger isn't in a bind, and it sounds like the sear spring is a little short. Pushes the disconnect up, but doesn't push the trigger forward.
Noticed a slight kink near the top of the center leaf or is the slide hard to rack with the hammer down and the trigger pulled?
Yes sir, the spring seems to be a bit, ugh, wavy. I think I might have installed it a little off kilter once and it got in a bind as a result.
I just looked at it again your right, the middle leg seems to be a little short.
I think, that when it tries to reset, the disconnect wont travel upward because the middle leg is at the end of its throw/range of motion because its contacting such a little amount of the disconnect.
If the center leaf has a little kink about 1/8th inch from the top, don't shoot it. Same thing happened to Ken Rainey's Kimber and we had a bit of excitement when the gun went burrrrrrp. (Lotta fun though...)
Hammer down. Hold the trigger to the rear and hand-cycle the slide. If it's noticeably harder to rack than with the trigger NOT held... it's probably gettin' ready to rock your world. I'll drop a sear spring in the mail to ya today. After all the neat GI parts you've given to me, it's the least I can do.
Two things... I have come across a fair number of aftermarket springs that had a short center leaf. You also get some with a sharp burr where it rubs on the disconector, and I always make a point of stoning them off.
It is also possible that the slot in the frame which anchors the spring may be located a little low.
Fuff... I noticed that too. Wonderwhydahelltheydodat.
Andrew. I didn't get by the post office today. Got your spring all packaged up and ready to go. It'll be on the way early tomorrow in the A.M.
Ok, an update on the disconnect problem. I replaced the sear spring and checked it and the spring seems to be workin fine. The only problem is, I'm not so sure that this was the problem,,or at least all of the problem.
Now, when the hammer is down and I hold the grip safety in and squeeze the trigger and then release the grip safety and then release the trigger (Big run-on sentence),the grip safety stays pressed in and the trigger stays pressed rearward.
Then by pulling the trigger forward, the grip safety will reset and the trigger will reset.
I thought it was the underside of the grip safety's protrusion that was long/rough so I ever so slightly stoned the flat and was carefull not to touch the angle of the protrusion which blocks the trigger when at rest. Nada, same thing the trigger is still catching on the grip safety and not allowing it to reset.
Stone a little off the angle on the underside of the finger. It's the point that blocks the trigger. Grip safety rotates... Finger raises to let the trigger stirrup pass under it. Trigger stirrup contacts the rear corner of the angled end, and gets in a bind. Take a stroke with a mill file, break the rear corner lightly, and follow the angle. Assemble and test. Repeat until the trigger resets.
Well, I think I killed my grip safety.
I took the right grip panel off the gun to see if I could find out exactly how much of the safety was hanging on the trigger bow and found out that there must have been somewhere around .040-.050 of the protrusion sticking on the trigger bow. It wasnt just hanging on the corner of the engagement angle.
I thought I could remove enough metal one stroke at a time to get it back in spec but I ended up screwing the engagement angle up and now the hammer will fall when the safety is not depressed.
I know better than to work on this stuff when I'm tired but I did it anyway
I think that the safety was out of spec anyway, more specifically, the hole that the thumb safety goes into was/is mislocated causing the rotation arc of the grip safety to swing wider that what spec calls for, causing a whole Bunch of the safety protrusion to get hung up on the trigger bow.
Anyway, onward and upward.
Andrew... What AM I gonna do with you, lad?
Assemble the gun and use your thumb under the tang to pull up on the safety and pull the trigger to see if it will block it. If not, mail it to me. It's probably salvageable.
Oh yeah... Did it stop hangin' the trigger up?
The Old Fuff should mind his own business, but he'll interject a couple of points anyway...
Quote:
I've got a series 70 gun that has just recently started having
problems.
Quote:
I think that the safety was out of spec anyway, more specifically, the hole
that the thumb safety goes into was/is mislocated causing the rotation arc of
the grip safety to swing wider that what spec calls for, causing a whole bunch
of the safety protrusion to get hung up on the trigger bow.
I notice that this problem is something that came up recently in an older gun. So I presume that things worked O.K. before, but not now. This begs a question: Are the trigger and grip safety the ones that came in the pistol, and apparently worked before, or is one or the other (or both) recent replacements? If they are that could explain a lot.
It is possible that the hole for the safety lock's pin is not where it shoud be, but I doubt it. If this was the case I'd expect the issue would have started the day the gun first came out of the box.
There is something here that doesn't add up...
Quote:
The Old Fuff should mind his own business, but he'll interject a couple of
points anyway...
I notice that this problem is something that came up recently in an older gun. So I presume that things worked O.K. before, but not now. This begs a question: Are the trigger and grip safety the ones that came in the pistol, and apparently worked before, or is one or the other (or both) recent replacements? If they are that could explain a lot.
It is possible that the hole for the safety lock's pin is not where it shoud be, but I doubt it. If this was the case I'd expect the issue would have started the day the gun first came out of the box.
There is something here that doesn't add up...
Ahh... Mr. Fuff, I think instead of saying the problem just started happening, I should have said, I just noticed it.
The more I think about this thing the more I'm convinced that there were two separate problems goin on with this gun.
First, the disconnect problem. When I was looking at this one, the gun would get hung up and I could bang on the butt of the gun and it would reset (with no trigger movement) and fire. This is the one that just started happening.
Second, the grip safety issue which I notice after I replaced the sear spring and was going through the motions to see if the gun was functioning correctly.
The grip safety issue was probably there since the beginning but was never noticed because the only time it would happen is if the gun was fired and the trigger was held to the rear and slowly reset at the same time the shooters grip was relaxed just a little. Letting the grip safety try to reset but instead getting hung up.
Tuner, as of right now, it will block the trigger but if you keep pulling the trigger 2 or 3 times in a row, the safety will slide up and the hammer will fall.
The safety still hangs up but just at the corner of the "blocking" angle.
I'll send it to you if you promise not to laugh, cause I looked at it again last night and when I said I killed it, I was given to understatement at the time
I swear, I'm embarassed just thinking about it.
Ok I FINALLY figured out what the hang-up was with the disconnect.
Mr. Fuff was right when he asked if something had changed with a previously working pistol its just I didn't think to look there.
After foolin around with this thing for say 1/2 hour a day for about 2 weeks I disassembled it and tried to take a fresh look at what the problem was.
What I noticed was there is a rubbed shiny spot on the bottom corner of the front of the disconnect. It is located on the corner of the outside of the sear pin channel facing towards the mag well. DING DING DING. A light went on in my little bitty head.
I reassembled the gun, and I tried to see if the gun would hang up without a mag inserted. Nada, I couldn't get her to stall. So I tried a different mag. Yep wouldn't reset when the slide was easily lowered into battery. Then I tried the mag that had been used with the gun for years which was a 2-dollar gun show thin walled round-topped follower H.O.C. (hunk of crap). Ahh haa! Houston we have reset...
The disconnect was rubbing on the magazine.
Well, since I now own this gun (used to be my father's) and I am a follower of the Tuner school of magazine doctrine, I tried to radius the "rubbing" part of the disconnect so I could use my mags in the gun. I took off a little with a needle file but couldn't get it to clear. It didn't matter much because I had already done what I do best, I killed the disconnect about a week before. Let me explain.
In my search of what was hanging it up, I noticed that the disconnect paddles were off kilter. One was taller than the other by about .003. I theorized that this was somehow getting the disconnect in a bind when it went to slide forward off the sear legs and reset.
And hey, it's only .003 whets that gonna hurt right? Anyhow, the engagement surfaces between this disconnect and sear were very slight anyway and I killed it.
Usually I would be more upset/annoyed that the killed parts jar had gotten a new entry but this disconnect didn't die in vain because I learned through its death a little more about JMB's wonderful creation.
By the way, If your in search of a forged machined or machined bar stock disconnect and you come across the one by briley as advertised in brownells, the description says bar stock but it's a cast part. I called them about it and the nice lady I spoke with really didn't know the difference. I decided to let it go and eat the 20 bucks and I suggested she inform the Brownells web page guys and she said she would.
For now, I'm using the Briley, I even took it to the range and test fired it (real smart, yeah I know ) starting with one round then two then three. I'm gonna limit use of it until I can get down to the Guru's workshop slash coffee table so he can make sure this disconnect is disconnecting early enough and give it a once over and his Tuner OSHA stamp of approval (read safety check).
Andrew! Kudos on your diagnosis! Ya done good, lad!
That corner has been radiused as SOP during manufacture for a long time now, but once in a while, a spec or tolerance stack issue with the frame and disconnector location will let the corner protrude far enough to contact the magazine... which can also cause a VERY hairy trigger on the first round after a mag-slam reload. I'm talkin' down into the 1-pound bracket... or even as far as causing the sear to trip as the mag is slammed home. Scary stuff, and dangerous as a troupe of Hell's Belles. (No need to ask. You already know how I know that.)
It's true that Briley has gone to casting their excellent disconnects after years of being the last bastion for supplying machined steel units. I have the 3 last machined Brileys that Brownells had, since when they told me that they had 3 in stock of the four that I wanted... I took'em all... and they're still pristine and unused. (Nope. Not for sale.) So... All you folks who wanted steel Brileys last year and didn't get'em... you can blame me.
I put the 4th one on back-order and when it came... it was a casting. The quality is very good, and the prep and polishing is already done, as in the past. I went ahead and installed the cast unit in one of my beaters and have put it through the wringer in usual fashion. So far, so good... with no undue wear and perfect function. The round count is up to about 10,000 in that pistol... so it seems to be holding up to my sadistic practices pretty well.