Recently bought a Norinco off of GunBroker thinking it would be a good beater. Supposedly had a low round count through it, but I dont know if that is the case.
This is the first 1911 that I have taken all the way apart, so help me here. Is the hammer strut supposed to have room to wiggle on the hammer? The link even wiggles on the barrell. I am talking side to side play, not normal movement...
The barrel bushing is really loose on the barrell and in the slide. Nothing good about it. This thing prolly shoots 4 - 5" groups at 15 yards. Scary that its in such bad shape.
I do have the Kuhnhausen manuals, but don't know if this thing is worth the time or money to throw at it.
Anyone care to chime in about what to look for at this point? Dont mind fixin this up to be a good range gun or better... but dont want to throw good money after bad.
Sounds like a typical Nork to me... and yes... The hammer strut will show plenty of side-play, as will the link. If the link will twist excessively, it could be a sign that the upper hole is a little out of spec, but the 1911 was never intended to be a super-tight pistol in the first place. Ordnance-spec bushing to slide/bushing to barrel fit allowed for a pretty good bit of clearance too. Many are as loose as .005 inch between barrel and bushing and an additonal .005 between bushing and slide. That's about the high end of tolerance, but the low end... as per ordnance spec... weren't a whole lot tighter. Super-tight tolerances... aka Match Grade or National Match spec pistols... are actually variants of the original that the Army adopted nearly a century ago. Those loose tolerances are there for a reason. The gun was designed, ultimately...with the trenches in mind rather than the target range.
It shook, rattled and rolled through two major wars and several smaller-scale conflicts and made a name for itself that sets the standards today. The Norincos are true clones of that same pistol. Not what most of us refer to as "Nice" or "Sweet"... but the biggest percentage of'em are tough, reliable guns that will be at home in the boondocks... and you won't be upset if they get a little scratch or ding. As the mountain men used to say when paying a high compliment: "It'll do to ride the river with."
The trend toward pistols that lock up "Like a Vault", also with zero play between slide and frame started way back in the 30s when the guns were hand- fitted to meet national match criteria, and it has become accepted that that's the way they're supposed to be set up, which isn't so. Custom builders typically make'em that way because it makes for a very accurate pistol, and is a mark of their skill in building a precisely-fitted pistol. Nothing at all wrong with that approach as long as reliability isn't sacrificed, but there's a limit as to how tight a pistol can be and still retain that reliability under adverse conditions... Dirt... lack of oil... fouling, etc. That was, and is one of the 1911s strengths in its original guise. The ability to keep working even when dirty and/or neglected... along with the ability to completely disassemble the gun in about 3 minutes without tools.
Check for obvious signs of upper barrel lug damage at the front corners and the lower lug at the rear. If there isn't any, I'd say that it's probably good to go as is. If you get a chance to run it by a good smith, you might want him to do a quick headspace check. Some few have shown to be a little on the high side. Most Norincos will take a lickin' and keep on tickin'.
I will check the lugs and measure the bushing, barrell and slide and report back on those.
I have read your posts about Springfield barrells and Norcs. Any idea if a drop in Storm Lake or Wilson or ? would provide better than the Springfield barrel? Just looking to get closer to POA.
Don't know about the Storm Lake. Don't see how it could be a lot better than the two Springfield barrels were that I used in my two, but that was likely one of those happy-dance events in which John Moses was smilin' on me. May be consistently repeatable and may not. Those two barrels didn't drop in... They required a little fitting, but not much. Just enough in the right places to make for a solid, serviceable pistol with good field accuracy. Not bullseye class by any stretch... but well above average for a production Colt or Springfield and more accurate than I can prove offhand.
Storm Lake makes a very good barrel. I don't see how you could go wrong.
Just don't count too heavily on the "Drop-In" part. Might do it...Might not.
The Kart easy-Fit is also an option, though it's a bit more involved than a drop in that needs light fitting. The installation kit is recommended with the Kart...even though I didn't use it... and the proper tools are a must. That puts the price for one barrel a bit higher than you might want to go, but you're set if you ever need to do another one.
If you're within' drivin' distance, you can run it by here for a once-over. No Charge.
Bushing ID: .584 at the Barrel Tip
Bushing OD: .692 - .694 depending on where I measure
Barrel OD: .581
Slide ID: .698 - .699 depending on where I measure
Heck, looking at the numbers, it ain't so bad. I can't see or feel any lug peening either. To feel the parts react with one another it feels looser than what it is measuring.
Tuner, I dont know what to check now. I have known that the ejector needed to be replaced as this one really wobbles and it isnt solid at all. I hope that the rear leg isn't broke off in the frame. Other than that, I don't know why I can't make this shoot straight.
The trigger isn't too stiff and it kinda surprises ya - good to keep me from anticipating it. When we were shooting this one, couldn't hold groups to any part of the paper. Never consistent.
Seeing that it isn't way out there like I originally thought on tolerances... what would you recomend me trying next? I dont think it needs a new barrel or bushing right now, but something just isnt adding up for me.
The range guns we used at LeJeune had at least a jillion rounds through them and I would have wagered that I could have pried the slide off of my last qual. gun sideways..it was that loose. Bore looked smooth with only the faintest hint of rifling evident and that may have only been an illusion being as I was looking for it.
But, the thing would easily group well enough to shoot Expert. Of course, this isn't expecting a 2" group at 50 yds but good enough for what it was to be used for.
What kind of accuracy target are you hoping for? Have you given the bore a super scrubbing to remove ALL fouling? And, have you tried several to many different types and brands of ammo to see if it is just an ammo sensitivity? These things can be funny sometimes. Good luck with the project!
Can't complain about mine. Shoots accurately, to point of aim, and feeds everything I've fed it. Loose does not necessarily equal inaccurate.
I would definitely shoot the Norinco before making any decision. Some examples of the 1911 might feel too sloppy, but still give reasonable performance.
I put together a .45 on a Doublestar frame. I thought that the resulting combination would be too inaccurate. Well, I was wrong! It is not the most accurate pistol I own, but it is plenty accurate for its intended purpose, and has proven to be as reliable as any pistol I have ever owned.
As Tuner said, "It is good enough to ride the river with".
I would like to see something that could group well within 3" at 25 yards. Anything better would be a plus. There were two of us shooting it and neither of us could get groups anywhere near that tight.
I am thinking of having some work done to it and while I am having a pro look at it I will ask what he thinks about the trigger and if that might be a major problem.
Would like to get some better sights, and a refinish. Before I have that done I may try my hand at a new grip safety and fitting some small parts to have on hand for spares.
Norinco Bushing Upgrade Caveat
Using a fitted bushing or even an MGW Drop-In with a stock Nork barrel can be problematical, and can do some damage under the right circumstances.
Look closely at the Norinco barrel and compare it to one in a Colt or Springfield. You'll notice what appears to be a slight flare near the muzzle on the American clones that's not present on the Chinese barrel. It's not a flare, but rather the barrel diameter itself is reduced by about 5 or 6 thousandths inch. This allows for a closer bushing fit in lockup while providing clearance between barrel and bushing as the slide recoils, pulling the bushing over the barrel. The Norinco barrel is pretty much the same diameter from in front of the lug to the muzzle. In extreme cases, the barrel gets into a bind and can't linkdown completely and go to bed. The barrel lugs can't get clear of the slide's mating lugs, and immediate, catastrophic damage can result. Just a wee bit out of whack, and the damage will be done over a period of time... Usually within a thousand rounds or so.
Since the Norinco barrel is hard-chromed, it can't be lathe-turned to reduce the diameter, and will require grinding through the chrome. It can be done by hand on a lathe with a grinding set-up attached to the toolpost... but that's a little involved in itself.
You may be able to relieve the bushing skirt sufficiently to allow for the clearance. Check to make completely sure that the barrel does fall to the frame without having to push it downward when the slide is fully rearward, and perform a standard timing check to see that it unlocks and links down early enough to clear the slide.
Your previous post, last paragraph, 'perform standard timing check... to clear the slide'.
What is the std timing check? How is it done? Use dummy rounds?
Assemble the gun without the recoil system. Push the slide to battery briskly and retract it slowly. Predetermine and mark what makes for .250 inch of slide movement, and at that point, the barrel should be fully linked down with .010 inch clearance between the top of the barrel hood and the underside of the slide...and that's minimum. I like to see .015 inch or a little more. You can use strips of 20 bond typing paper for feeler gauges. No fair pushing the barrel down. It has to fall.
Check the beginning of the unlock phase:
Slide briskly into battery... Pull slowly and watch for the barrel to just start to move. Might take a few tries to nail it down exactly. Predetermine and mark 1/10th inch of slide movement. The barrel should just start to unlock there, plus/minus .010 inch. If it passes these quick field tests, it's probably good to go. if it doesn't, a more involved test needs to be performed with a timing test kit from Scheumann barrels. It may be okay, but so close that a more precise test is called for to be sure.
Push the slide fully rearward and hold it there. Push the barrel down and back against a table edge. With the slidestop pin installed and the arm hanging vertically, see if the slidestop arm will swing freely, or if it gets into a bind. It should swing freely, but a very tiny amount of tightness is okay... just enough that will still allow you to move it with a light flick of your finger.
Roughly 2/3rds of the Norincos that I've checked exhibit this light bind. Means that the link may need to be lightly relieved at the top of the hole.
NOT at the bottom.
I put a MGW bushing in my Norinco. I was fortunate in that it passed Tuners tests. If I remember right he said that it could be shortened to keep the barrel from binding if necessary. The ID on the bushing that came on the gun was oval by several thousands of an inch. The new bushing helped accuracy enough that I can no longer blame the gun when I shoot badly
Whoops!
Salty... In my frantic, steroid-induced klutz, I forgot to finish it.
If the slidestop pin gets into a hard bind in the last test, it may mean that the frame vertical impact surface is located too far aft, or the barrel's lower lug is too far forward, and the barrel's rearward movement is being stopped by the link instead of the frame. This will stretch the link and delay the unlock timing... and, if the specs are very far outta whack, will lead to failure of the link. When the link breaks, the barrel can't unlock, and damage to the locking lugs result. This can range from lug deformation/setback to catastrophic failure. (Shearing) The slide can also be damaged beyone repair.
This is also sometimes encountered when a long link is present, but for a different reason. With a long link, the barrel's downward movement is being stopped by the link in compression instead of in extension. Not a critical problem if the barrel falls far enough to allow the slide to pass over the locking lugs with enough clearance. If it doesn't, A shorter link is called for, but it can usually be addressed by relieving the top of the slidestop pin hole.
The longer the link, the later the barrel unlocks, and vice-versa. Going too short or too long can lead to trouble. Juggling links is best approached with caution and an understanding of exactly what occurs whenever the center-to- center length is changed.
You mentioned the Schuemann Test Kit. Assuming I have the smarts to use the thing correctly, and there is a timing problem, what do I do about it?
As a layman, my experience with timing issues has to do with EGW firing pin stops, mainspring (hammer) force, and mag springs.
I promise to keep the Dremel tool un-plugged.
quote:
You mentioned the Schuemann Test Kit. Assuming I have the smarts to use the
thing correctly, and there is a timing problem, what do I do about it?
Good question... You'll probably have to call Scheumann to get a kit, and I haven't priced one in years. I had to abandon one when I left the shop many moons ago, and I haven't even seen one since then. (Didn't belong to me.)
It comes with instructions. Simple to follow. Cost may drive you to seek the help of a smith who has one and understands the barrel unlock and linkdown timing.
The good news is that, if the gun passes the Field Expedient Test, chances are high that it'll pass the Scheumann test. If it's outta whack too bad to pass the expedient test, you can adjust a little for it... but you may be lookin' at a new barrel or machine work in the frame... or both.
The other good news is that I haven't seen one in a long time that was so badly out of spec that it required this much work to correct... not since the old Thompson/Auto Ordnance/Safari Arms days. I'm sure that there are a few around that do... I just haven't seen it lately.
As it turns out, the Norinco is pretty darned accurate. I took it to Bob Rodgers in Mtn Home, Arkansas to discuss its problems and potential. He repeated several safety checks and found that the hammer followed on occassion and once it started, it really did not want to stop. He also found that the thumb safety did not always work and the trigger wouldnt always reset correctly.
One thing led to another and we found the sear, sear spring, hammer, disconnector and thumb safety were bad. The hammer needed the hooks recut, and the rest were replaced. Once all of the corrections were made and the gun was safe to handle we shot it. He was able to shoot under 1.5" at fifteen yards. He repaired it for me in less than a day for a lot less that I had expected.
It shoots better and smoother (he also gave it a solid 4# trigger). The barrel has some headspace issues but isnt in a real bad place yet. No more than what it is, it is a whole lot better than what my first impression was.
If you are in need of a down to earth, honest pistol smith I give Bob Rodgers two thumbs up. http://rodgerspistolsmithing.com/
All the Norincos that I've looked at over the last 2 years show a bit more headspace than I like, but most shoot surprisingly well, despite the fact that they're pretty loosely built. Checking with gauges, they vary from about .912 to .918 inch with a few being just over the line of acceptable for service.
Depending on which direction the excess headspace goes determines whether it's safe to fire. If the lug fit and engagement is such that the slide backs up on firing and the case also backs out with the slide and loses chamber support in the bottom...it can be dangerous. If it's a matter of the chamber being cut a little too deep, it's not... and the only issues are related to accuracy due to erratic ignition or possibly misfires. It can also be a combination of both.
Working headspace increases with use due to a tiny bit of lug setback each time the gun is fired, which is why it's best to try to keep it as close to minimum as is feasible without sacrificing chambering and return to battery reliability. About .902-.903 inch from breechface to chamber shoulder is a good dimension for the best of both worlds. This insures that the longest cartridge case will chamber when the gun is dirty, and the shortest will still get a good solid punch from the firing pin.