Hello, I have a essex frame and slide, I'm currently fitting a Ed Brown pre- fit barrel.
So here is my issue, I am getting good lockup just with the slide and barrel but when I put it into the frame my barrel to slide clearence is zero, I was able to get it to cycle but it drags on the slide, it just barely clears.
Additionly the barrel lugs are not contacting the rear of the reciever, checked this with inletting black, both with the slide off and on.
So, here are my thoughts, the frame bed needs to be lowered, or the link needs to be lengthened, but that would cause barrel to slide to be even tighter? I did sit and polish the frame bed, still no lug contact but this did allow the action to be cycled roughly by hand, before that it basically would lock up.
So thoughts? I basically will be in the study phase here, dont want to be taking metal off for the sake of it. I sat and read about lowering the bed, and it seems like thats where my issues are, but would love to hear opinions, this is my first build
Compare the distances from the slide stop hole vertically to the bed and frame top and from the slide stop hole horizontally to the VIS against the blueprints in our Tech Issues section.
The best course of action can only be determined after finding out whether these frame dimensions are within the specifications. This may keep you from putting an in-spec frame out of spec to accommodate some other part that's out of spec.
Does the barrel contact the bed when the slide's all the way back?
I'll take a look tonight and measure the distance from hole to VIS, last night I did take a dowel with the right O.D. and polish/knock down high spots, this actually allowed the pistol to be fully cycled for the first time!!!! It was a pretty happy moment, it was late so I did not remeasure lock-up, or look for vis contact, visually my slide to barrel clearance is still too little, but I need to get some shims in there. I read shuemans (SP?) write up on timing, I'll shoot for that. Additionally, you are right, I need to be measuring all my parts.
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"Does the barrel contact the bed when the slide's all the way back?"
Visually it looks like it might, I can put some inletting black on there and see if it is or not, what should be taking place here? I can look it up as well.
Thanks again, as a side note, not real pleased with my essex frame, the machining is rough and there where a few bad cuts, instead of explaining them here I'll get some photos up
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I read shuemans (SP?) write up on timing, I'll shoot for that.
Schuemann's barrel top to slide clearances are a bit on the large side, IMHO. In addition, use some common sense when he says you must whack on the frame (instead of the barrel) to get proper clearances. If you follow his directions with a mid-spec USGI 1911, you'd end up lowering the bed 0.026" (putting it 0.023" out of spec) and moving the VIS back 0.010" (putting it 0.007" out of spec).
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"Does the barrel contact the bed when the slide's all the way back?"
The answer to that depends on who you ask. Some think the barrel's downward motion should be stopped by the link a few thousandths above the bed. Others see nothing wrong with the barrel falling all the way into contact with the bed. The barrel of a mid-spec USGI 1911 will fall all the way to the bed.
The really important aspect of barrel linkdown is that the barrel contact the VIS first. If the barrel hits the bed first, the link will eventually break!
Thanks, just found the site, and have been reading alot ever since... but from what I've read so far, I'm striving for VIS contact first.
Sounds good, I would take contact period right now, first thing tonight I'll get a good measurement on everything. Things would sure be easier with a mill! But I'm going slow and think I'm keeping things square, (keeping the Dremel in the drawer) currently I have no VIS contact but then again I have really no barrel/slide clearence either!
Do yourself a favor spend 25 dollars on a set of barrel links(wilson combat 1 through 5)this will allow you to try different link sizes.
My first build was the same exact setup you have,hence i had the same issues.the link is vital to fitting your barrel and could save you from filing on the barrel. does you gun cycle like the link is dragging slightly on the frame,mine did and a smaller link solved all my troubles ( #2)
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...currently I have no VIS contact but then again I have really no
barrel/slide clearence either!
You'd mentioned before (Post #1, third paragraph) you had no VIS contact even when the barrel was just linked to the frame (no slide).
Be sure to double-check and confirm this because one thing that can prevent VIS contact is insufficient clearance between the bottom of the barrel and the slide. If the slide prevents the barrel from falling down far enough it will also prevent it from swinging aft on the link far enough to contact the VIS.
IIRC, there should be about 0.020" or more of clearance between the top of the barrel and the slide when the slide, barrel & bushing are not on the frame and the barrel is all the way down in the slide.
If, under these conditions, you still have practically zero slide/barrel clearance the lack of VIS contact may be largely due to slide/barrel interference.
I'm checking VIS contact with no slide, but also checking with slide, but it seems more accurate and telling if I check it without slide.
When the slide is on its dragging the barrel, its marking it well enough to see this, let alone feel it.
My thing with the links, if I was to lengthen the link then in the 12 o'clock position it would press even further into the slide.
And if I shorten it, then I'm pushing myself even further from VIS contact?
Does that sound right? Seems right to me, I'll start using inletting black at all stages, to see my exact contact points. I'll keep everyone posted!
If you have no VIS contact when the barrel is just linked to the frame (no slide) then either:
* The link is too short
* The VIS is too far back
* The barrel bed is too high
* The distance between the aft vertical surface of the barrel's lower lugs and the link pin hole is too small
* The diameter of the aft part of the barrel is too great
* The link pin hole is too close to the barrel bore axis
...or some combination of these.
What size link are you using and how much vertical locking lug engagement does it provide?
The answer to those two questions coupled with a measurement of the maximum possible amount of vertical locking lug engagement will give you an idea of how much longer a link could be used.
0.040" is usually considered the minimum acceptable amount of vertical engagement. A mid-spec USGI 1911 has about that and longer links can provide up to about 0.059" of engagement.
Currently getting .05 of lug engagment, but really have no slide/barrel clearence.
I'm using a ED barrel, the link pin in that is .278, if I remember correctly
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Currently getting .05 of lug engagment...
That's good engagement.
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...but really have no slide/barrel clearence.
How much slide/barrel clearance do you have with just the barrel & bushing installed in the slide (all off the frame)?
Please bear with me, as I'm new to this, but I'm confused. I thought that the length of the link controls the timing of slide lug engagement rather than depth, which is a function of the lower lug engagement with the slide stop.
I just fitted a 9mm Storm Lake barrel to my RIA 38 Super and I measured the slide lug engagement at .045" with the pistol assembled but I measured .050" when the barrel is placed in the slide and is pressed up into lug engagement from below (with my thumb). I was wondering whether I should be concerned about the difference.
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I thought that the length of the link controls the timing of slide lug
engagement rather than depth, which is a function of the lower lug engagement
with the slide stop.
That's true for a barrel which has been vertically fitted so the slide stop pin forces the barrel up into the slide as far as it will go AND the barrel has also lifted the slide up on the frame to reduce any slide/frame vertical play to zero.
A gun such as this is said to have a truly "hard fit" barrel in the sense there is no vertical play at the aft end of the barrel within the slide AND there is no play between the slide and frame AND the link will be loose when the gun's in battery.
However, the OP called his barrel a "pre-fit" barrel. I may be mistaken, but to me such a barrel is nothing more than what most folks call a "drop-in" barrel. And a drop-in barrel usually rides the link all the way into battery - just like a Gov't Issue 1911. For these types of barrels, the length of the link controls both the amount of vertical locking lug engagement and the timing.
If you have 0.005" of vertical play at the aft end of your barrel when the gun is fully assembled, it has not been truly "hard-fitted" in the strict sense - but it is pretty good. No reason to be concerned about it as long as the linkdown timing's OK. Your minimum engagement of 0.045" is 0.005" above the customary minimum quoted by most authorities.
This assumes the vertical engagement was properly measured.
Thanks for the explanation. I'll pick up a link set and see what I can learn with that.
Don't get me wrong: While the truly hard fit barrel does (theoretically, at least) provide the ultimate in accuracy (because the barrel locks up into the slide in exactly the same place every time) it can cause reliability problems.
The 1911 was designed to be reliable even when dirty, with sufficient clearances between parts. Removing those clearances by hard fitting a barrel can make the gun sensitive to dirt - not a good trait for a carry gun. But OK for a fun or competition gun that can be kept reasonably clean.
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This assumes the vertical engagement was properly measured.
I searched and found your instructions for using the popsicle stick to measure engagement. My technique was different in that, with the slide removed and barrel out of engagement, I forced the barrel against the top of the slide and measured from the top of the slide to the top of the barrel. That became my base measurement. When I used the popsicle stick technique the average of three measurements was .049" engagement.
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...with the slide removed and barrel out of engagement, I forced the barrel
against the top of the slide and measured from the top of the slide to the top
of the barrel.
If this measurement is subtracted from the measurement with the popsicle stick inserted (gun assembled), the result will be the maximum possible engagement. And, FWIW, the maximum possible engagement for a mid-spec GI 1911 is about 0.059".
The difference between the maximum possible engagement for your gun and the 0.049" you got with (& without) the popsicle stick is very close to how much more engagement can be obtained with a longer link.
F'rinstance, if the difference is 0.005" a link longer than the one in your gun by 0.005" is about what's needed - if you need or want more engagement. 0.049" is adequate engagement for a 45 Auto, but I don't know about the 38 Super. Somebody else probably knows.
Q: Is your barrel vertically supported by the link or the SS pin when in battery?
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The difference between the maximum possible engagement for your gun and the
0.049" you got with (& without) the popsicle stick is very close to how much
more engagement can be obtained with a longer link.
The maximum engagement was measured at .050 so I think I'm good there.
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Q: Is your barrel vertically supported by the link or the SS pin when in
battery?
Repeated searches came up empty in my effort to find out how to determine the answer to your question. Looking at the link hole with respect to the lower lugs both with and without the slide stop inserted indicates that the barrel should be supported by the lugs when in battery but there might be up to .002 difference that I can't see. I applied marker to the lugs and cycled the action several times, with the following result:
It looks like the inner edges of the lugs are riding the slide stop pin.
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The maximum engagement was measured at .050 so I think I'm good there.
So that means if you have 0.049 of actual engagement using the popsicle stick method, you can only get 0.001" more engagement with a longer link.
Judging from you pic, it looks like it's sort of a tie between the barrel being supported by the link and barrel feet. On a barrel fitted for sole support by the lower lugs, the wear area would (or at least should) extend all the way across the lower lugs.
Anyway, you've got good vertical engagement now at 0.049" and an extra thou with a longer link (which would need modification to make it only 0.001" longer) wouldn't amount to a hill of beans.
If the linkdown timing's OK, shoot it & enjoy it!