A little advice on a drop in barrel would be welcome.
As warned, the barrel is not completely drop in on this 5" stainless Storm Lake ACP. It does go in the series 80 with a loose slide to frame fit.
But:
Racking the slide slowly, it will "hang up" about a 1/4" and stop. A good nudge will close the action. Rack the slide quickly and it goes into battery. Replacing the supplied bushing with a loose one and no issues. Would it be safe to assume it's a tight fit and shooting will wear it in? The barrel does not appear to be springing.
The barrel throat is about even with the ramp where the bullet feeds. There is no "gap" like the older barrel. I make that distinction because in the "book" the gap appears to be measured on the 'shoulder' of the ramp to the barrel. I have a gap there, but not where the bullet actually feeds into the throat.
I assume it can be adjusted with a flat file to shorten and then the dreaded dremel to throat. If that's true, what "bit" to use on the dremel... easiest/safest? Or, other options? Like take it to someone that knows what they are doing!
The slide stop is 'bumping" the barrel feet(foot) on one side. Small dent which I removed carefully and polished. Using a sharpie, again, I see a small mark. Just continue until no contact?
Unlike other barrels, I cannot remove the link pin. Maybe I didn't use a big enough hammer. I always just pushed them out.
Fired about 20 rounds and one jammed badly. I believe the 200 LSWC wedged into the throat, stuck with the slide not completetly close. No chance of racking the slide... none. Finally smacked the slide forward and fired which led to a "stove pipe"... first, I think, ever experienced. Fired another 8 shots no problem. No issues with known mags or ammo.
As warned, the barrel is not completely drop in on this 5" stainless Storm Lake ACP. It does go in the series 80 with a loose slide to frame fit.
Most so-called "drop in" barrels presume the gun is built to original blueprint dimensions. However this in often not the case with some of the clones and copies being made today.
On better-quality barrels the link pin is press fitted. You need to support the barrel lug on a block with a hole drilled through it, and then drive the pin out with a punch.
Since I can't examine the pistol in question, I'm not going to get into a detailed discussion about how to fit it. However I suspect that the barrel may be standing on the link, or the bottom (link) lug may be pressing on the slide stop pin. Unlatch the slide stop and swing it down so that it is parallel to the front of the trigger guard (more or less). Push the slide into battery and then see if the slide stop swings free, or binds. If it does bind, remove the link, and see if the slide can be pushed into battery without the binding you are having now. Then report back what you find.
I would strongly advise that if you are going to do this kind of work yourself that you purchase a copy of Jerry Kuhnhausen's book, "The Colt .45 Automatic - A Shop Manual" (available from www.brownells.com) or (www.gunbooks.com). If the book saves you from messing up the new barrel it will be well worth its cost.
The link swings free.
And have that book so I'm being very careful.
Good. Now remove the link and see if the bottom lug is riding (pressing) on the slide stop pin.
I did everything as before only without the link and used a sharpie to mark the barrel feet. Racked the slide several times.
The back of the feet, perpendicular to the slide stop have marks removed. I don't see any marks removed on the lugs that are parallel to the slide stop. except for a mark on one lug where it starts to round... so to speak.
Lucky I had another link pin. It came out like a bb gun.
This is a Colt series 80 if that means anything.
Referring to the "supplied bushing." Is it finger tight in the slide, or do you need a wrench to assemble and remove it?
Also go to your Shop Manual and read page 125 (Final Fit Match Barrel, Bushing & Slide) and in particular note illustration #174. In addition review information on barrel bushings and barrel swing on pages #44 and #45.
Edited to add: Is the other bushing you're using one of Colt's spring- fingered kind?
"Drop in" usually means drop in to the gunsmith and have it properly fitted
I just recently went through this process with a Springfield .38 Super that I wanted to convert to 9mm. I bought a Nowlin 9mm "drop in" barrel and quickly found that it required more fitting than I was competent to do.
I "dropped in" to the local smith and in 3 days and $60 later had a pistol that quickly converts from one caliber to another and shoots great with either.
I guess that if you have the right skills and the right tools the job would be simple. But most "drop in" barrels don't.
Assemble the gun, point it straight up and hand cycle it. If the hangup goes away or is much reduced, there's interference with the front corner(s) of the barrel lug(s) and the rear corner(s) of the slide lug(s). Either the barrel is timing into lockup too early, or there's a tolerance stack issue in the location of the lug or lugs... but likely just one. If the hood is a close fit with the breechface, you may be able to solve the problem by taking a little off the face of the hood. Easy! About .003 inch should tell the tale.
The gap at the leading of the throat and the top of the ramp will require a little filing. Set the lower edge forward on an angle with a smooth mill file.
Use a scrape to reshape the throat, but don't set the top any deeper into the chamber than absolutely necessary.
The bushing is finger tight with the barrel out of battery, When the barrel is locked in you need a bushing wrench... not real tight.
Read the pages as suggested and there doesn't appear to be any barrel springing.
I did use a collet bushing the first time which eliminated the slide "sticking" so to speak. I then tried a Nowlin bushing which was fitted to THE Colt barrel that broke, and no binding of the slide and you need a wrench for this bushing.
Tuner:
I tried the gun straight up and the same result. No problem with the Nowlin
bushing.
I'm not sure I should "tackle" the throating. What's a scrape?
I should have ask you before, "is the barrel stepped at the muzzle?" I just presumed that it was. Anyway, if it is, then pulling the slide back will reduce the tension and make it "finger-loose."
Tuner is probably right - as he usually is - but I continue to wonder about the bushing fit. I consider the fact that things work O.K. with the Nowlin bushing to be an important "clew." ( )
If you have a pair of dial calipers (everyone should) measure the diameters of the barrel at the muzzle, the I.D. and O.D. of the different bushings, and the I.D. of the slide.
The barrel appears to be "stepped up" since, as you said, pulling back the slide does make it finger tight.
It "seems" to work great with the Nowlin bushing.
I'll shoot it today, if it doesn't jam up.
It appears from my "book learning, Tuner and yourself" that I has several problems.
Not the right gap for the barrel/ramp.
Using a Sharpie, I see contact marks only on one "foot"... looking at the slide stop. Perhaps shooting more rounds will show more??
I thought, perhaps, since it was Colt, I might "get lucky" with a drop in. I'll slap myself later.
The Ol' Fuff whomped me on this'un, it appears... provin' that even a blind squirrel will find a nut once in a while.
Kiddin'... Fuff knows his stuff.
On the foot contact... Find an old slidestop. Put a dab of lapping compound on the barrel feet, and assemble the gun with the stop arm hanging vertically.
Use the stop crosspin as a lapping tool by rotating it back and forth under recoil spring tension. Add more compound to it periodically. Unless the mismatch is large, you should get even contact pretty soon. Be careful to keep excessive compound off the holes in the frame and check it often.
You can fashion a scraper from a triangular file by using a belt sander to remove the cutting teeth from all sides... or you can use the tip of a good pen knife.... slower, but it'll work. Just blend the filed flat on the leading edge of the throat into the throat's angle. You'll have to cut the top part a little deeper into the chamber if you follow the angle perfectly, but shouldn't hurt anything unless you go hog-wild.
I ran through about 150 rounds with 7 good jams. I smacked that slide silly and continued.
Accuracy appears to be good, no more than 2- 2 1/2" (I believe) at 25 yards.
Contact on both feet to a degree, but much more on one side than the other.
But, if you hold the barrel upside down and picture a ski slope. I have marks up the slope to where it just rounds on one foot, the other marks over the curve.
That's not good... correct?
I think this could be a tack driver if someone really knew what they were doing.
This gun is really beat, needs rebuilding. Hammer followed 5 times...
45Auto said:
This gun is really beat, needs rebuilding. Hammer followed 5 times...
Info! I need more info!
Hammer follows during live fire or finger off trigger when tripping the slide during a reload? Will it follow with the trigger pulled and held during a reload from slidelock?
Does it follow all the way down... or does it stop on the half-cock?
Goes to 1/2 cock when I release the slide to load only. It probably doesn't help that the bullet feed is more 'violent' now with the new barrel.
I've had this problem before so I just replaced the sear spring. It surprised me it happened so many times on a 4lb trigger... roughly. Quite frankly, this gun is probably @ 38,000 live and dry fire and I believe the original sear, Colt MIM, is no longer making good contact with the hammer, the face looks a bit battered. It doesn't help to dry fire it and thumb cock a round hammer with a beavertail, and not quite make it. I rack the slide now.
Oh boy! Stop and take a deep breath. You have a whole bunch of issues, and you shouldn't be shooting that pistol until they are addressed. Tuner can (and likely will) help, but his assistance is only as good as the information you give him.
I believe this pistol is far from worn out, but it does need some attention and T.L.C. Doing what's needed piecemeal is a mistake because these problems are sometimes interrelated with each other. Some parts do more then one job.
So start by posting a list of EVERYTHING you know that isn't working right. Then we can go from there.
Edited to add: For more detailed information on trigger pulls and sear/hammer relationships look at the following thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...ghlight=jammer
Just those two for now... that's enough. The hammer dropping that many times is a new one. I've had it happen before, not often, but that's when I was fooling around with the sear spring for a lighter pull. It was easy to fix and I did it right away.
Just the other day, I replaced the sear spring with a Wolf, which is heavier and ended up with a heavier trigger pull than I had before. That's why I was surprised at the hammer dropping.
The 30,000 round and under list is zero... no problems. After; cracked dust cover, slide stop broken (nub that locks the slide), FP plunger worn and replaced (it jammed the FP forward) and cracked barrel lugs.
It was not a good year.
When it rains, it ...
As Tuner has said, "usually when there is a problem the solution is an easy one that isn't expensive." Let us hope.
I suspect the better part of your trigger pull problem isn't so much the spring, unless it has been bent too much. What you need too do is eyeball the hammer hooks and sear nose, and look at the angles. That's part of the reason I pointed you toward Jammer's thread. Use a strong glass to do the looking. Drop into a real photographic shop that has accessories and see if they might have a cheap (used) enlarger lens that is ideal for this kind of worrk. It shouldn't cost much, and it may turn out to be one of the most valuable tools you have. Eyeballing often tells you a lot, costs little or nothing, and it won't get you into trouble.
The cracked barrel lug(s) concern me. If they were the top lug(s) I would expect damage to the slide. If it was the bottom lug I would question, "why??"
The hammer follow... Will it follow to half-cock with the trigger pulled...or only when your finger is off-trigger? With trigger pulled suggests the trigger is nudging the disconnect and tripping the sear. Lock the slide back... pull the trigger and hold it... and (ouch) trip the slidestop to let the slide slam home.
If the hammer doesn't fall, it's probably the sear spring. Bend the center leaf forward a little to put more tension on the trigger. If it falls with the trigger pulled, you've got a sear/hammer hook problem.
Cracked lugs... Suggests an unlock timing problem. Are the top front corners of the lugs rounded off or peened? How about the slide lugs? Lower barrel lug show any signs of battering at the rear? Is the link's slidestop pin hole stretched or elongated?
If the frame's vertical impact surface is located too far forward, the lugs will round off, batter, crack or shear due to the barrel not unlocking from the slide in time to let it whiz past. Ditto for battering of the lower lug.
If the vertical impact surface is too far to the rear, the link will stretch or break. Stretching delays unlock timing with the same result as above. A broken link prevents the barrel's unlocking, and damages the lugs.
If it's too far forward, it can be corrected by having a smith mill the "Bowtie" in the VIS just under the top so that the lower lug will hit the surface closer to the top. Setting back the portion that's left a few thousandths may also be required.
The same things as noted above will also occur if the barrel lower lug is mislocated. Too far to the rear will mimic the impact surface being too far forward and vice-versa.
Your new barrel sitting too far rearward indicates that the VIS may be too far to the rear. Check by assembling the gun without the recoil system. Insert the slidestop through the link, but leave the arm hanging down. Push the barrel down and back and hold it firmly. The slidestop should swing freely.
At most, any binding should be very light, and you should be able to move the arm by lightly flicking it with your fingernail. If it's in a tight bind, the frame is out of spec in the barrel's vertical impact surface.
Note that a short or long link will also do the damage that you described.
Short won't unlock the barrel. Long will delay it, maybe to the point that it hits the impact surface while it's still partially locked to the slide.
Whew! Fuff's right. This one's plum fulla gremlins.
The bottom lug of the barrel cracked, it formed a depression in the chamber.
The top lugs of the barrel and the slide were/are in great shape, no peening or unusual marks.
Agreed on the sear spring. I replaced it simply as preventative maintenance since it's a spring. I did tuners test and the hammer now follows the slide to half cock even with the trigger depressed. Must be the sear/hammer.
Tuner, As you mentioned, it looks like a sear/hammer problem.
The frame had that "bowtie". Very good contact on the slide stop it appeared.
Slide/barrel lugs looked very good...sharp and no rounding. The only "change" I noticed in the last year was some wear marks on the frame/barrel below the bowtie which indicated the barrel lug was now impacting lower than normal, at least to some degree. I assumed it was simply wear but didn't think the round count was high enough to worry about it.
Link in good shape.
As an aside, the new barrel fits in the other Colt frame I have just fine, i.e. proper gap etc. 20 years between the Colts, maybe they changed their ramp dimensions or they just did mine on a bad day.
Maybe they don't make 'im they way they used to!
And this was my "good gun". You should see my other one.
While it is not likely, it is possible that the slide stop pin hole in the frame is mis-loacted. I haven't ever come across this in a Colt, but have seen it in some other makes.
No, Colt didn't change the ramp dimensions - at least on the blueprints. But a lot of folks that do "feed ramp & throat jobs" do and then find they've made a serious mistake.
I presume that your hammer is the Series 80 style with a ledge rather then a half-cock notch. The ledge is higher on the hammer face then the old notch, which means that when the hammer does fall it is more likely to batter the sear nose. You may be able to stone the sear nose and correct this, but a new sear will probably be necessary. First though, you have to determine just how much damage has been done.
Quote: "Link swings freely"
Not the link...The slidestop.
As a final check... if you can arrange for the use of a dial indicator... mount the gun in a vise and zero the indicator on the back of the hammer spur.
Slowly squeeze the trigger and watch the indicator needle. If it moves to the negative side, you've got a hammer/sear problem. If the hooks are worn oversquare, you may be able to correct it by squaring them up and stoning the sear primary angle if they're not too badly worn. If the sear has to be cut a lot shorter to get the engagement angles to agree, toss it and start with a new one. If the hooks are worn badly enough squaring them will also "advance" them too far. The gun will function, but the trigger pull may be unacceptable. Maybe worth a try though...
It's a EB hammer so I believe it's the standard half cock.
I was amazed the barrel broke. I shoot moderate loads, no impact damage on the frame, shock buffs last over a thousand rounds, etc, etc. Maybe the barrel just wasn't made properly? I'm in my "blame Colt" mode the last 6 months.
Tuner,
Sorry, I meant the slide stop swinging freely.
I do have a spare hammer and sear hanging around which could be used.
Once again I am amazed by the ability of Fuff & Tuner to guide someone through a repair via long distance.
Often times fixing a gun over the internet is somewhat akin to tuning a guitar by mail.
Ha, you "guys" do a great job and much appreciated. Learned a lot and I "be" the victim, or gun anyway. You won't get this type of help/knowledge on other forums.
When I saw two different ramps on my Colts, all I thought was "Springfield".
If you think it about it, there aren't many new 1911 choices under $1,500 that don't have external extractors, power extractor type nonsense and FP safeties activated by grip safeties. That's not a good trend IMHO.
I think your "victim" will live. That breed are very hard to kill off.
I'd start with the hammer dropping problem first, because it isn't safe to fire until that's taken care of. Jammer's thread will give you a lot of help with this, as will Kuhnhausen's book. Start by using your marker to see if both hooks are bearing on the sear nose. Hopefully the hammer is O.K., and some mild stoning on the sear nose will get things workng. At worst, you may have to get a new sear. If you buy one from the same outfit that made the hammer it will likely come close to fitting. The angles that are cut on some of the aftermarket stuff reflects more on what the part maker thinks is right, then on the original blueprints, or Colt does. Also look out for undersized hooks combined with too much break away angle on the sear. Colt, it should be noted, uses little or no break-away angles on their service pistols.
I tried another hammer and it stopped following, at least the 5 times I tested it. In fact, any combination of hammer/sear 'works', except the original with all the "mileage" on it. I'd say the sear is bearing about 75% on the hammer... on the original set. Blued hammer so it's easy to see. Use to be less by the way... perhaps 60%. And, the work was done by a gunsmith.
"Works" means it doesn't follow, not that it's a good trigger pull. The sear clearly needs some stoning. The other sear does not fit with the thumb safety. I'm not sure it's worth it to buy stones and a jig to redo one sear and hammer... perhaps.
My experience with local gunsmiths(2) is just okay. I now know that there are fewer smiths that really know a 1911 than 'advertised'. IMHO, a lot of them get by because most people don't shoot enough rounds through one gun to really 'test' the work.
If the "other sear" works, and is a spare - not one removed from a working gun - it can be modified so that the manual safety will work. Usually this is done the other way around (safety fitted to match the sear) but in your case the reverse might be better. At least it is an option that doesn't requre any special tools, jigs, fixtures, etc. If you decide to go that way, Tuner (who has already posted something on this) or I will work you through it.
Thanks. I'll see where I end up with this semi-rebuilt gun.
As for the trigger pull itself - I wouldn't worry about that at this point. When the pistol can be safely fired you can shoot it and address the problems surrounding the new barrel. When that's done you can go back to adjusting the trigger pull.
Well, long story short, my 'friend' exchanged the barrel for a Springfield stainless barrel(new) that he had. The other barrel "needed a lot of work" and was not well "suited", pushing down on the barrel hood had too much movement.
Regardless, the Springfield dropped right in and works fine. Fired about 70 shots and reliability was 100%. Little to no barrel hood movement.
But, there's always a "but", the barrel shoots about 4" higher than the original barrel. The firing pin hits are off centered. I assume they are "high" since the barrel must be tilted up a bit?
Any suggested course of action now?
Sidenote: No hammer follow. That's good.
"Little to no barrel hood movement."
Meaning... Is there any movement or not? If there is... even the tiniest bit... you're at the limit on vertical adjustment, and even if it's right on the edge of downward movement, your aggregate vertical dimensions are giving you all the lockup you'll get with that barrel in that gun... at least without some pretty extensive work. Welding the lower lug to get the barrel to sit higher in the slide. Swaging the frame rails down to get the slide to sit lower on the frame in order to take up the slack, and then maybe filing the slots between lugs a little deeper in order to adjust the barrel's final height... or all of the above.
Off-center firing pin hits generally aren't too much of a concern as long as it's not TOO far off. Since the gun is shooting 4 inches higher, it indicates that the barrel isn't tilting upward into lockup quite as much as the other one was.
A .200 inch diameter slidestop pin will raise it by half the amount of the difference between the original and the new one... probably not more than .002 inch. Not enough to make a practical difference.
Sounds like you need a hard-fit barrel to bring everything into line. Sometimes that's the way it goes though... Tolerance stacking can work for you or against you. Luck of the draw.
More of a concern is how much vertical lug engagement is there... and how many lugs are taking the shock of recoil in the horizontal lockup. You'll need to gauge the slide and barrel to find out how they're doin' in the horizontal... but the vertical is a little easier.
Draw the slide to the rear far enough to slip in a piece of wood or flat metal stock that's about 1/8th inch thick and let the slide rest against it. Measure from the top of the slide to the top of the barrel hood. Remove the shim and let the slide go to battery, and measure again. The difference is the depth of lug engagement. .045 to .050 is good. That's pretty close to 100%. If you've got at least two lugs bearing equally in the horizontal plane, you're good to go with a little less...about .042 inch. With all three...which isn't likely with a drop-in barrel...you can go down to .040 and still be okay for standard-pressure ammo. With only one lug bearing the brunt...AND less than .045 vertical engagement, you can expect shortened barrel life due to increasing headspace as the gun is fired. Ask the smith what the headspace was in the new barrel. If he didn't gauge it exactly, have him do it, and have him check the horizontal engagement too, if he has the gauges.
quote:
Sidenote: No hammer follow. That's good.
So did you change sears or what?
Check the new "Springfield barrel, and see if the hood is longer. Better yet, measure from the front of the front (locking) lug to the end of the hood on both barrels.
No movement, just checked it again. The slide stop is already a .200... EGW.
I'll have to find a shim to measure the way you detailed. I did pull the slide back to where the barrel hood has moved down, marked the breachface. Then released the slide and marked the breechface again. Almost a 1/8" difference in height. That make sense?
However, I'll have someone check it. If that's the way the barrel has to be, without extensive work, what about a taller front sight? I recall having to file down the sight to bring down the POI about 3"-4".
This may become my "bedroom" gun, shot very little, early retirement.
4" higher at what distance?
Depending on how high it is, and how it is attached to the slide, it might be easier to change the rear sight for a lower one.
I changed the hammer. I'll check the barrel measurements of the Springfield to the old Colt barrel as a comparison.
That's 4" high at 25 yards. Good point on the rear sight, but I like the height and style of the one I have now.
quote:
I did pull the slide back to where the barrel hood has moved down, marked the
breachface. Then released the slide and marked the breechface again. Almost a
1/8" difference in height. That make sense?
Yep, but it won't tell you anything useful. You need to put something between the slide and barrel to get the hood butted against the underside of the slide's first lug... measure... then release it into battery and measure again.
Back in business with the Springfield barrel, appears to be a good fit and reliable... about 700 rounds through and no problems.
New Nowlin sear has good contact on both hammer hooks(old hammer), which I never had before. Sear dropped in and fit the thumb safety...lucky. Should have replaced the Colt sear a long time ago.
New .200 front sight brought the groups back into the black.