Topic: Tell Me about building .38 super 1911s

I've been thinking about making a 1911, but as I already own .45acp versions of them, I'd like to try a .38 super.

Having never seen one, or prints for one, I'm "In the Dark" as far as information.

What is different on them? Would You have any modifications in the frame? Can I get "raw" slides to make into a .38 super?

If using factory or standard reloads, fit like the 45 barrel. If you shoot IPSC Major, ramped barrel and frame cutting. Fit barrel for max upper lug engagement / fitment to the slide, and the longest flat spot on the lower lugs that still allows the barrel to unlock. This is just to keep the barrel in lock-up for as long as possible.

Would you mind if I piggyback on this thread as I am also interested in building a .38 super 1911. Could someone please give us a list of parts that would be different from .45 parts.

If you look in a Brownell's catalog you can get a pretty good idea of which parts are caliber-specific and which aren't. Looks to me like the list would include the slide, barrel & bushing, extractor, ejector, & firing pin. You also need to have the proper rate recoil spring and, obviously, the right magazines. That should just about do it.

1st off, let me say I am an IPSC (www.uspsa.com) shooter. Now, I have to add: USE A RAMPED BARREL!!! I personally think it is irresponsible to build a .38 with a traditional 1911 barrel - which is to say that the original 1911 barrel design is UNSUPPORTED. Does it matter in .45?? No - the pressures are so low it does not matter. .38 Sup?? It matters!! Moreover, even if you only plan to shoot factory ammo or load softball ammo (equivalent of factory) the gun could someday find its way into the hands of another shooter who loads the case to its potential. If you use a ramped barrel, you can load the case as hot as you like (many of my fellow 1911 shooters use a 115 grain travelling in excess of 1500 fps). The ramp cuts are only a few extra $$ from the companies that sell frames and there is info out there on easy ways to make the cuts at home if you go the 80% route (which I encourage). There is also info on www.brianenos.com Regards, CBR

Hey, CBR600, now that you brought up the ramp-cutting issue, could you tell us what's the difference between a Clark/Para ramp and a Nowlin/Wilson ramp? Are there specs out there somewhere that I could add to my drawing collection that help keep these things in order? I assume the frame modification needs to match the ramp style, correct? Any help would be appreciated.

A picture is worth a thousand words

In order from top: Clark/Para WIlson/Nowlin non PICTURE 404

Thanks, DT... that answers part of the question... now, what is the difference in the ways the frames are machined for the 2 different ramp styles? Frame cut specs anywhere? I tried a google search and the only hits I got were for barrels for sale. THe other question is which (in your estimation) is the superior style and why?

Courtesy of Schuemann barrels

A short history of ramped barrels is appropriate. When the 38 Super was first introduced into IPSC shooting, the barrels used were unramped which, combined with loading inexperience, caused cartridge case walls to occasionally fail because of the combination of high case pressure and insufficient case wall support. This led to Bar-Sto introducing a ramped barrel with Bar-Sto designed lower lugs. The Bar-Sto lower lugs were weak and failures led to the development of what we now call the Wilson/Nowlin lower lugs. This was a stronger design. About the same time Clark developed what appeared to be an even stronger lower lug design which ParaOrdnance incorporated into the ParaOrdance pistol design.

For a number of years barrels with the Wilson/Nowlin lower lug design outsold the Clark/ParaOrd lower lug design by two to one.

The Wilson/Nowlin design had less load carrying metal but a nice radius at the maximum stress point to reduce the stress concentration at that maximum stress point. The Clark/ParaOrd lower lugs had more load carrying metal but no radius at the critical maximum stress point to reduce the stress concentration there.

The actual strength of the two designed appeared equal because both the Wilson/Nowlin and the Clark/ParaOrd lower lug designs experienced a lower lug breakage rate of 1% to 2% per year, mostly because some gunsmiths haven't learn to properly time a 1911, and partly because the timing of a 1911 can change as it wears.

Lissner, a barrel maker in Australia, modified the Clark/ParaOrd design to include a radius at the critical maximum stress point. We introduced the Lissner modification into our Clark/ParaOrd ramped barrels in about 1997. Since that time there has not been a single Clark/ParaOrd/Lissner ramped barrel returned to us because of a broken lower lug while the slow steady stream of broken Wilson/Nowlin lugged barrels continues. I won't claim that the Clark/ParaOrd/Lissner ramp can never fail, but it is obviously stronger, and therefore inherently more forgiving of sloppy gunsmithing, than the Wilson/Nowlin ramp design.

It is easy to convert a Wilson/Nowlin ramped gun to use barrels with the Clark/ParaOrd/Lissner lower lugs. The conversion does not compromise the strength of the gun. Most gunsmiths eventually conclude that the Clark/ParaOrd/Lissner ramp is easier to install than the Wilson/Nowlin ramp. Our production, which used to be 2 to 1 in favor of Wilson/Nowlin lugged barrels three years ago has gradually changed to be 2 to 1 in favor of Clark/ParaOrd/Lissner lugged barrels today.

The growing popularity of the Clark/ParaOrd/Lissner lower lugs combined with the relative weakness of the Wilson/Nowlin lower lugs, combined with the fact that existing guns equipped with the Wilson/Nowlin ramp can be easily converted to the Clark/ParaOrd/Lissner ramp convinced us to offer the AET barrels only with Clark/ParaOrd/Lissner lower lugs, and in the unramped configuration where appropriate. The standard line of Schuemann barrels will continue to include Wilson/Nowlin lower lugs, Clark/ParaOrd/Lissner lower lugs, and unramped lower lugs, as it always has.

Marv, here is a link with some discussion on the different types of cuts. Someone had pictures, but they are not showing up now.

http://brianenos.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=6348&hl=wilson,and,nowlin,and,clark,and,para

http://brianenos.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=6348