Hello everyone, I've been reading this forum for some time and I thought I would ask a question. I was interested in building up a 38spl wad gun for bullseye shooting. Kart told me that they make an Easy-Fit barrel in 38spl for the 1911 and they recommend using a 40S&W slide to go with it. They tell me that the 45ACP slide is too big for it.
Anyone have any experience building one of these up? I spoke to a couple gunsmiths and none of them were excited about the idea. One of them basically kept trying to talk me out of it and then said it would cost about $3000. I think I could bring that cost down to about $1200 if I did most of the build myself and then had a smith just do the fitting of the barrel, slide, and frame. Any thoughts?
Unless you have considerable pistol smith experience I would engage a pro on this, at least to some extent. And not one who has reservations about it. You are right about cutting cost though. Clark will build one for a little less than the $3k but the wait is more than a yr. Used guns often go for much less.
Check out the Bullseye-L talk forum. The have a few good BE smiths that monitor it, do quality work, & will save you some money. I have 2 o38's. $800 for one & $595 for the other, an as new Giles that the store owner insisted was a 38 super! I modified the 38 super colt clip in it to feed 38 wc's and it works fine. All that being said...if you are serious about BE scores spend the $$ on your 45 & ammo /components for it. If you are like the most of us you will be more competitive.
If you've got your heart set on a .38 Spl wadcutter gun and a 1911 platform is not absolutely mandatory, have you considered a S&W Model 52?
[This space reserved for all the BE shooters who'll cloud up and rain all over me for even suggesting such a dastardly thing! ]
The S&W Model 52 grip is big. I don't find it comfortable to shoot it. I'm used to the 1911 grip and I enjoy loading and shooting the 38spl. I have a S&W Model 14 I practice with a lot in hopes of earning a distinguished badge some day.
I agree that I need to spend time with the 45ACP and that is what I primarily shoot. This is more of a project gun and something I can start shooting for fun as a break from the 45acp in 1911.
Building a 38 wadgun that will work reliably is something only a few have managed to do on a regular basis. Making a magazine function correctly is worse.
Good luck on your project.
You might consider .38 super as a bullseye gun. I'm getting excellent results from the 6" I built, loaded down with 115gr LSWC, and 147gr TC running a 10lb spring. Recoil is about the same as my Giles .38 wadcutter.
In 1952, John Schooley wrote a Dope Bag article for the NRA detailing a 38 Super he converted to 38 Special. It has diagrams as to the barrel, slide, extractor, & magazine modifications he made to the weapon. I do not believe you can still get reprints of the article from the NRA, but it, along with other 38 Special 1911 articles, are on a set of CDs that JC Schaefer sells.
They cost $25 - $40.00.
The reason most smiths want to talk you out of it, is because it is not, nor has it ever been a trouble free conversion. What other major automatic pistol system can you name that uses a rimmed cartridge..None..because it does not work well..AMU took it to the 38 rimless in an effort to minimize feeding problems. Now, you are back to the 38 super or 9mm..It worked much better, but the winners are still shooting the .45 wadcutter... There's a lesson there. In many decades of bullseye shooting, numerous approachs have been tried. The S&W Model 52 is by far superior in design to a cobbled up 1911/38, yet it never achieved greatness in the bullseye winners circle. The winner remains .45 wadcutter...
Serious competition requires a lot of training. Have you check the price and availability of of 38 super brass? If you must have a minor caliber, 9mm is the obvious choice.. but beware, that the recoil is not reduced by as much as one would think.. A precision 1911/45 wadcutter with slide mounted optics has softer recoil and is an absolute joy to shoot...
We continue to refine and make the 45 more accurate. No one I know is seriously working on any other system..
Every time the .38 super is brought up, the first thing people attack is the price of brass. The only drawback is you can't pick it up for free. When you buy new, like all the brass I shoot at matches, it is LESS THEN 45.
Sorry to offend you Shovel wrench, if your happy, I am happy...It's not an attack...I believe the .38 Super is an excellent cartridge..and should have been far more popular in law enforcement than it was/is..
I vote with Niemi - there is nothing quite like a Model 52. I have shot one in centerfire competition for nearly forty years. Most accurate pistol I own, and the trigger is a thing of joy. Maybe your hand could learn to hold it???
There is one for sale at the Hamburg Cabelas, 799$. Looked to be very nice like 90%+.
Jerry, no offense taken. I do understand most people don't pay for brass, and While you would have to buy 38 Super, it sure helps promote the caliber.
I have to ask; how will shooting a .38 revolver help you get distinguished?
Have I read that correctly? If so, I would shoot as much .45 as you can.
I got distinguished in 1991 and what helped alot was to shoot my hardball gun for Centerfire and the .45 stages, switching springs for hardball and wadcutter loads. What will win you points toward Distinguished is practicing alot of Rapid fire with your hardball loads. An old saying used to be that "Matches are won in slow fire, and lost in rapid fire" Strange, but true. The one exception is in Hardball. There the match is won in Rapid fire.
You can shoot an average slow fire and an average Timed fire. If you can bear down and shoot an average or better Rapid, you will score points.
Good Luck and shoot the .45.....A LOT!
I gotta go with Dr. Lee on this one - Jerry Miculek may be able to compete equally well with a wheel gun and an auto - but they are different skills. I shot a custom revolver in 38spl (slab side K-38) in Olympic trials one year, and regretted not shooting my M52 - particularly in rapid fire. It does take a bit of time to cock the gun, and I am not good enough with a long trigger stroke to shoot double action in rapid fire.
Gotta also agree with his observation that matches are won in slow fire and lost in rapid fire. Happened to me too many times to count (but not always )
My Bob Chow 45 shoots into an inch or less with good target or hardball loads (any of you remember Mr. Chow?). My Model 52 is that good or better - and with a better trigger. Over forty years of competitive shooting I respect the notion of staying with a single platform and praciticing like crazy. The Model 52 is not so dissimilar from the 1911 as to violate that concept. Be advised that it will not shoot ordinary wadcutters. It will only shoot flush seated wadcutters - I typically load HBWC and crimp the mouth over the slug.
If you want a new gun, Smith has re-released the Model 52. but it is quite expensive. Happy New Year! LJA
The orignal poster is referring to the NRA Harry Reeves open class revolver match and / or the NRA Distinguished Revolver match. NRA Bullseye now affords the oppurtunity to earn a distinguished badge, using a revolver, which has become a very popular event...
First, I want to thank everyone for their comments. They have been very helpful and now I get an idea why people are so reluctant to build one up.
I have been competing in Bullseye for about one year and have become an addict. I would like to be double distinguished someday and am shooting a Model 14 S&W Revolver for Distinguished Revolver and a Springfield Armory 45ACP Ball gun for Distinguished Pistol.
I recently decided to put away the red dots and I'm shooting exclusively iron sights in the hope that this will help me reach my personal goals.
I like shooting the 38spl and as I said in a previous post, this was more of a project gun that I could play with to take a break from my 45ACP practice. I shot a Clark built 38wad and really liked it. Its just the price that's a little steep.
I was thinking of getting a 40S&W Fusion Firearms or Caspian kit and purchasing the barrel from Kart and trying most of the rest of the build myself aside from the parts I would ask a Gunsmith. Judging by the comments, I guess it doesn't really sound like a realistic plan.
I didn't know that S&W had re-introduced the Model 52. i wonder if the trigger and barrel are half as good as the original. From my limited understanding, the knock on the Model 52 is that if it breaks there are no parts for it, but I guess that has changed. I still see some of the classic ones around, so they are attainable. I just like that 1911 grip, nothing beats it.
Quote:
If you want a new gun, Smith has re-released the Model 52.
I see a SS, 9mm Model 952 on the S&W website, but no Model 52 (with or without dash numbers). Or, is it something they're planning on doing in the future?
[QUOTE=arjuna70]
I recently decided to put away the red dots and I'm shooting exclusively iron
sights in the hope that this will help me reach my personal goals.
Arjuna;
Don't rush to put the dot sights aside..They are a great training aid for
shooting iron sights...The dots are actually harder to shoot in many experts
opinion. You must train your brain to ignore the constant movement, which is
so well defined by the dot. This movement impedes trigger movement, as the
brain attempts to make the dot motionless in the x ring..Training with the
dot, will make the iron sights appear rock solid in comparsion to the dot and
your iron scores should improve rapidly...also, resist the urging of some,
that you should shoot 2700's with hard ball, until you become
distinguished..."insane", and a sure invitation to physical injury...Dry fire
and learn you fundamentals...
I didn't know that S&W had re-introduced the Model 52.
I believe Neimi is correct.. It's the 952, and was sought after by many PPC shooters and is popular with that game... I haven't seen many at Perry..
Try Bullseye-L@lava.net for the bullseye crowd...if I have the e-address wrong, google will bring it up for you..
Jerry
If you where refering to my post, thats not what I advised. I said I shot my hardball gun (iron sights) for Center fire and the .45 stage, switching springs for the Leg stage. Not shooting hardball ammo throughout. Same gun and trigger, but shooting wadcutter loads until the Leg match.
So I was browsing when I saw this post. It particularly interested me when I saw my friend and fellow pistolsmith Jerry was commenting so I thought I would throw in my two cents...
Forget the .38spl. It is, in my opinion, an infernal waste of your time whether you try to shoot it in a S&W model 52 or a custom 1911. Unless you have the perfect hold, trigger control, and follow through you will sacrifice many many points. In the 1911 it was an idea that should have never been thought up in the first place. If you want to shoot that round have Jerry or someone qualified build you up a nice Model 14 with a heavy barrel. The one I used to have from Jarvis would hold five shots in 5/8" at 50 yards...but it was slow during rapid fire and heavy as a truck...so I sold it.
Now, you might be about to fire away and ask me, "why do you say this Joe?". Its simple really. You can get a 9mm or a .38super built that at 50 yards will shoot sub inch groups all day. I know because I build them routinely. My personal 9mm shoots an average of 10 shot groups of .893" at 50 yards and the last 9mm wad gun I built with a scope mount on the slide shot sub inch all day. The lady that shoots it does very well by the way.
With the 9mm or the Super you are not going to have to worry about feeding and extraction issues, expensive hard to tune mags, bad cast bullets, and a whole litany of other problems. Honestly I can't really believe folks still try to build 1911 .38specials...guess there are those that love to punish themselves.
Is Super brass expensive...depends on how you look at it. You can buy 500 rounds and load it with 4.0 grains of bullseye for about 20+ reloads if you get Starline .38comp brass (approx $75.00). That's 10,000 rounds, aka a ton of shooting or $.0075 a shot for your brass! If you opt for the 9mm (which I would) brass is as cheap as it comes and you get about the same amount of reloads. This is not to mention that from any good BE smith you could get a switch barrel gun with both a 9mm and .38super barrel and have the best of both worlds for a few more bucks! (Just insist on Kart barrels in my opinion.)
The down side is this. If you shoot a 9 ring on the target that is really close to the 10 ring with a 38super or 9mm it is gonna be a 9. If you shoot that same shot with a .45...it is probably gonna be a 10. We all have to pick our poison. But please for the love of your mind, body and wallet don't go with the special...cause in the 1911 there is nothing special about it.
Interesting comments. Sounds as if you've been around BE a while. I've shot BE for many yrs. Early on I was trying to find a Clark .38 because of difficulty w/ the .45. A good friend suggested we pool our $$ & buy a Star thus shooting more & better ammo. We did. Very good choice as I eventually regularly shot better .45 than .22.
After many yrs & on the wrong side of the improvement curve I purchased 2 .38's a Clark & a Giles I stumbled across for a ridiculous price. I learned quickly that what you say is true! Put the work in the .45!!
Re: the 9m & the Super don't they have to be loaded hot enough to negate any advantage?
I have shot BE since 2002, so probably not as long as some, but more importantly I have built a LOT of BE guns in the last three years so I get to really "feel" what is going on with shooters at times.
As for loading them hot...no not really. In the 9mm I like the 115 XTP with 6.1 of PowerPistol which isn't really bad. In the .38super I really like my mentor Bob Marvels' pet load of the 125XTP over 4.0 of Bullseye. Dirty powder but man it does shoot!
As far as the recoil...I have found that in my opinion most folks have their guns sprung incorrectly. If they would change things up a bit and go against the norm they would see a serious improvement in their scores as well as their ability to control the gun...
First of all I must say that is a good sound practice strategy for someone that wants to get distinguished. Also, regarding shooting iron sights verses dot, most people seem to forget that the record that was set by H. Anderson in the mid 1970's of 2680 was shot with iron sights and still stands...hmm...something to think about there perhaps.
On to springing a gun. First of all one must keep in mind that all the info about to be given is based on my opinions (as well as many shooters that shoot guns I have sprung for them like this) and involves shooting loads conducive to the type of shooting. Now I shall parlay toward the subject at hand...
If a person is shooting a properly constructed .45acp wad gun with scope/dot on the slide and a load of say 3.8g of CLAYS pushing a 185 lead or 4.1 of CLAYS or N310 pushing a 185 Nosler/Sierra/Hornady/Remington the shooter would greatly improve if they were to go to a 23lb mainspring (make sure it isn't stacking the hammer as many do now) and a 9 or 10lb recoil spring (not a variable, just a regular). What this does is causes the gun to stay flatter during recoil because the slide has to overcome the hammer spring and then when it is returned forward it is not slammed home, but rather slid into place. This allows the shooter to stay on target better which is very important in rapid fire...
If the gun is a frame mount scope wad gun with same loads then the person would want a 16lb recoil spring and a 23lb mainspring.
With a Ball Gun I like a 18lb recoil spring and 23 mainspring and this allows me to shoot even my wad loads as well as such torture as TZZ and old Winchester Brown Box.
Now on the 9mm wad gun with a slide mount (the only way I'd fly other than iron sights) you want a 10lb recoil spring with a 20lb mainspring as that will allow for the same reaction on target as above.
Typically the problem is most of the wad guns we have come in for rebuild or repair have an 18 or 19lb main spring and a 11-13lb recoil spring. This causes the slide to slam back in the hand, rocking the gun back and loosing sight picture, then when the slide gets slammed back forward by the recoil spring the muzzle drops too much and you loose sight picture again...not good.
Hope that helps. If you have any more questions please don't hesitate...I'll do my best!
I've set mine up nearly the same for many yrs w/ the exception of the mainsprg. They are all lighter, Colt sprgs which were apparently cut before coming into my possesion.
I shoot a 160 gr bullet & bullsye. I hesitate to give a chg wt as BE can vary so much from lot to lot. Right now i have an 8# that is the hottest in my exp (since 1968). The current chg is 4.0 but would easily run w/ less. I use a slide mt.
I hesitate to chg mainsprgs as I see a sharp inc in trigger pull wt?
Ron, you shouldn't see too much increase in trigger weight. And remember, that is something you could correct pretty easily with some careful bending of the sear spring in the proper manner.
Well Caspian was kind enough to change the frame to a 45ACP ramp and exchange all 38sup/9mm parts I ordered. I'm building a new Wad Gun up instead.
I've decided to take everyone's advice and stick to the 45ACP. I'm shooting just iron sights now and my scores have improved dramatically. Thanks everyone for the advice.