Is there a way to shoot .380 ACP from a full size 1911?
I might be moving to a country in which handgun calibers for civilians are controlled by the government. Handgun calibers permitted for civilian use are .22, .32, .38 special (unfortunately NOT the .38 Super) and .380 ACP, nothing bigger than that. I like the 1911 platform. If I had a 9mm 1911 what would be required to shoot .380 ACP from it?
It ain't gonna be easy.
I have been pursuing this since I discovered awhile ago that Imbel, the Brazilian company that manufactures 1911s for Springfield Armory, offers a 1911 "CCO" size pistol (a Commander slide on an Officers ACP receiver) for the domestic market chambered in .380 ACP. Brazil is one of those countries that doesn't allow private citizens to own firearms in "military" calibers, so that excludes both .45 Auto and 9mm Parabellum.
If you are going to a country that has business dealings with Brazil and allows the importation of handguns, the easiest solution would be to buy one of the Imbels. The .380 pistol is available as either a single stack or double stack, in either a painted finish or stainless steel.
I haven't been able to import one of the Imbel .380s, so I have been tinkering with making one myself. Both chambers are too long, but you can drop a .380 ACP cartridge into both a 9mm Parabellum and a Super .38 barrel. I decided to work with a Super .38 barrel because the chamber diameter is closer to that of the .380 -- but the .380 case is actually slightly smaller than a Super .38.
I have been able to fire .380 Auto out of the Super .38 barrel, with the rim headspacing on the extractor. This requires a Super .38 slide. Accuracy was quite acceptable, but I went as low as a 10-pound recoil spring and I couldn't get the gun to eject. I think to make it work will require a lighter hammer spring and the lowest possible recoil spring available -- maybe around a 7- pound. It might also be necessary to remove some material from the slide to reduce mass.
If I can find the magic combination to achieve function, I will then pursue making the barrel a dedicated .380 Auto barrel. The Super .38 chamber is significantly deeper than that for a .380. For my purposes, I could live with an Imbel clone that headspaces on the extractor, although I would prefer not to. In your case I do not think that would pass muster, legally. So the plan was to machine out the chamber area of the Super .38 barrel to the end of the original chamber, taking approximately half the wall thickness surrounding the chamber. I would then make up an insert that would be shrink fitted into the chamber, and which would be chambered for .380 Auto.
In essence, I would be making the reverse of a Springfield two-piece barrel. Their chamber area is part of the barrel but the rear part of the chamber area is a separate sleeve. I would be keeping the outer portion and making an insert.
Another approach would be to simply make a collar to press fit into the end of the chamber to shorten it. I tried that, on a crude basis, using an end cut off a Wolf steel casing from a 9mm. It worked great ... for about five shots. Then the impact of rounds hitting it crumpled the shim. It's just too thin to be workable, which is why I'm looking at the more complicated approach of making a new chamber insert. (And a simple shim such as I tried would be removable, so probably would not be allowed in your case anyway.
Bottom line is, I think what you are looking for can be accomplished, but not with off-the-shelf parts.
Of course, I'm a tinkerer so I'm trying to "make" it. A more direct approach would be to call some of the custom barrel makers and ask them to just make you a barrel chambered for .380 Auto. The bore and rifling could be standard for 9mm/Super .38 -- it would require only making a short chamber for the .380 Auto cartridge. The barrel is the hard part. Once you have that, it should be a matter of selecting spring ratings. I used 9mm magazines and the .380 rounds seem to feed fine from those ... although if you could buy a couple of the "correct" .380 magazines from Imbel in Brazil it might be better.
[EDIT to add] Weren't there some target 1911s many years ago chambered for .38 Special? I've never seen one, but I vaguely recall mention in a couple of discussions here about some old Colts that were chambered for what struck me as an unusual round for a 1911.
Colt made a MKIII National Match that shot .38 Special midrange (wadcutters)
The AMU .38 cartridge was a .38 Special with the rim turned down the same as .38 Auto.
A .380 1911 sure could be interesting. I think after looking at case dimensions the 9mm barrel would be a better choice for a chamber insert, but I can't help but think a new barrel with the correct chamber is the answer.
But we tinkerers have to play. My Uncle used to get annoyed when I'd get a used gun go home dissasemble and clean it.
Edit: Afterthought; the original Commander and Combat Commanders had lightened slides. These would essentially have reduced weight from the getgo.
Imbel also made a .32ACP that was "mostly 1911" in appearance but was a simple blowback action if I recall correctly.
Hawkmoon
7th July 2009
Quote:
Imbel also made a .32ACP
Groan!
I didn't know that. That makes TWO almost-1911s I need to acquire.
The Imbel Pistola .380 is a blowback design, so it isn't 100% "1911." If I could source an Imbel barrel it would be infinitely easier to make the rest of it work, because the spring rates wouldn't be as critical. Taking the barrel mass out of the equation would simplify matters a lot.
I looked into barrelling a 1911 for 9mm Makarov at one time.
I got the gun to function with 9mm P handloads at Makarov ballistics but did not pursue the new barrel because the supply of heavy bullet Makarov that I was counting on dried up.
There was a thread on one of the other boards about building a .380 G.M.
It won't be cheap. I think I would make do with a .38 Special revolver and a good .22.
Wouldn't it be possible to special order a 9mm barrel unchambered? Did you try a large radius FPS, should help some with slide velocity. Also, I got a 7# recoil spring from EGW, lightest one I've seen yet.
Quote:
Wouldn't it be possible to special order a 9mm barrel unchambered?
If the barrel is unchambered, it wouldn't matter if it's 9mm or Super .38. If it's short chambered, the 9mm chamber is tapered where the Super .38 is straight, and the 9mm chamber is actually a little larger than a Super .38. Since both are larger than spec for .380 Auto, starting with a Super .38 barrel made better sense to me.
I can't see buying an unchambered or short chambered barrel, personally. Have you looked at the prices for chamber reamers in Brownells' catalog? If not ... be sure you're sitting down when you check it out. If I were doing ten or fifty barrels, sure. For one barrel, it makes far better sense to have a barrel maker just do it right and send it to me.
I could'nt even find one on Brownells. Regardless of price, it seemed you were pretty serious about getting one running. I'm sure someone here has a .38 super, or 9mm reamer, you could just short chamber a barrel with one of those.
This place rents reamers, 36$ for a 9mm.
Usually if I start something, theres little that stands in the way of finishing it.
Anyway, if you can't make it run, you could always just rechamber for .38 super, or 9mm.
Quote:
I couldn't even find one on Brownells.
This place rents reamers, 36$ for a 9mm. Usually if I start something, theres little that stands in the way of finishing it.
But a 9mm chamber won't work. It's too large, especially at the head end, and that's where you DON'T want it to be too large. Then there's the fact that you need at least two reamers, a rough followed by a finish. Even at the rental prices, with shipping both ways I'd be looking at $100 for the reamers. If I have to spend that kind of money I'd rather spend a bit more and own my own tools.
For that kind of money on top of the cost of a decent, unchambered barrel ... I'm 99 percent sure it would cost less to pay the barrel maker to chamber it.
Besides -- they don't seem to have either a Super .38 or .380 ACP reamer available.
If anyone is interested, here's what set me off on this Quixotic quest:
PICTURE 404
It might be harder to convince your new local peace officer that a full size 1911 style pictol would only be used for .380 ACP than to build the pistol.
.380 fires remarkably well in a 9mm Luger, but it just doesn't have enough oomph to cycle the pistol.
The .38 Special sounds like the most practical solution.
Unfortunately .38 Super is a restricted caliber in that country.